Spell/power research and WBL?

[danielxcutter]

Okay, there are rules for letting you research spells or psionic powers, I get how to use them. The problem is that I'm not sure how to factor them in when calculating NPC wealth.

I mean, it's okayish with spellcasters, at least, because prepared casters can already copy spells into their spellbook and spontaneous casters are still limited by their spells known.

It gets weird with Epic Spellcasting/Manifesting, and non-epic psionic powers, though. They're not limited by spells known, so you probably should account for them when assigning resources, but how much? Do you count both the research GP cost and XP cost against total wealth(and probably make up for that with non-item treasure)? Are there rules for that?

[danielxcutter]

Thread bumping. I mean, seriously nobody?

[Mato]

Thread bumping. I mean, seriously nobody?

That's because no body likes being reminded of a rule set that has been limiting them all along.

According to the PHB a spellbook can be sold for 5,000gp and the DMG on page 54 agrees using that value for treasure purposes.

[danielxcutter]

That's because no body likes being reminded of a rule set that has been limiting them all along.

According to the PHB a spellbook can be sold for 5,000gp and the DMG on page 54 agrees using that value for treasure purposes.

Well, yeah, but I was talking about psionic power research and epic spells/powers...

[Mato]

Well, yeah, but I was talking about psionic power research and epic spells/powers...

I am misunderstanding your question. Psionic classes like the psion, psychic fighter, & wilder, have a limited number of powers they can learn.

There is no real limit on epic spells/powers that can be known, only a casting/manifesting limit. WotC didn't plan for the creation of DC 0 spells/powers which circumvent the time & cost limitations.

[danielxcutter]

I am misunderstanding your question. Psionic classes like the psion, psychic fighter, & wilder, have a limited number of powers they can learn.

There is no real limit on epic spells/powers that can be known, only a casting/manifesting limit. WotC didn't plan for the creation of DC 0 spells/powers which circumvent the time & cost limitations.

In the case of research, spontaneous casters are specifically mentioned as not being able to bypass their spells known limit, but there is no such thing in the rules for manifesters.

Also, I did say in the OP I was specifically concerned about WBL?

[Mato]

Also, I did say in the OP I was specifically concerned about WBL?

Yes.

The problem is that I'm not sure how to factor them in when calculating NPC wealth. ... Do you count both the research GP cost and XP cost against total wealth(and probably make up for that with non-item treasure)

In the case of research, spontaneous casters are specifically mentioned as not being able to bypass their spells known limit, but there is no such thing in the rules for manifesters.

This also appears to be a non-epic question, and one I answered before. Sorcerers can research new (nonepic) spells which count against their (nonepic) spells known according to page 179 of the PHB. Psions, psychic fighters, & wilders can also learn new (nonepic) powers that count against their total known (nonepic) powers according to page 64 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook (and their class entries too). And the entries are quite clear you do not get to exceed known limits which isn't something I'd call "no such thing".

Is there anything else you'd like to rephase for clarity?

[danielxcutter]

You still haven't answered my question about epic spells and powers, methinks.

Also, er...

Independent Research
A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.

Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.

Don't see anything about limits about powers known here. As for Sorcerers and Bards:

Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire
A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.

Note the first line.



Seriously though, the real answer I need is to the question "how much do epic spells(or powers) count as when calculating WBL". The psionic power research thing is secondary in comparison to that.

[Mato]

Seriously though, the real answer I need is to the question "how much do epic spells(or powers) count as when calculating WBL". The psionic power research thing is secondary in comparison to that.

I think part of this is because you are using the system's reference document instead of the rule books.

For example,

Independent Research
A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.

Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.

The DM should work with the player before the research begins and give her guidance on the parameters under which an original power might be acceptable in the game. (See Creating New Spells, page 35 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide, for suggestions.) The DM is justified in ruling ahead of time that powers that invoke certain abilities such as time travel are never viable, and thus powers associated with them cannot be successfully researched in the campaign. The number of powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited; manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the research of original powers.

Don't see anything about limits about powers known here.

Always go back to the rule books if you have questions. The SRD is great and gives us a common point we can share without any problems. But it's not a rule book and it intentionally left a ton of information out on how to actually play the game.

You still haven't answered my question about epic spells and powers, methinks.

Is what you're asking it the research for an epic spell tracked in wealth? Yes, precedent from nonepic applies and while not ideally direct:

Because NPC gear accumulates more slowly, you’ll discover that it is very difficult for 21st- to 30th-level NPCs to acquire epic spells or epic magic items. They simply can’t afford them until long after PCs can. In the case of epic spells, feel free to just give an epic NPC the epic spells you’d like her to have, within reason. Epic spells are not “lootable,” so when your PCs defeat an NPC with epic spells, the game balance isn’t skewed by the PCs picking up equipment whose value breaks the expected average gp value they would otherwise gain for defeating a challenge at that level.

This part further contributes to the costs for developing an epic spell are not really forgive & forget. Through the DM is granted some extra leeway in handing them out to NPCs since they cannot be resold. More information, and context, can be found in the epic level handbook (but not the SRD). Then you just use that as a precedent to apply to epic power resource costs.

Did that help?

[danielxcutter]

I think part of this is because you are using the system's reference document instead of the rule books.

Ah crap. Back to the drawing board.

Is what you're asking it the research for an epic spell tracked in wealth? Yes, precedent from nonepic applies and while not ideally direct:
This part further contributes to the costs for developing an epic spell are not really forgive & forget. Through the DM is granted some extra leeway in handing them out to NPCs since they cannot be resold. More information, and context, can be found in the epic level handbook (but not the SRD). Then you just use that as a precedent to apply to epic power resource costs.

Did that help?

Okay, that helped a lot. So what if I have an NPC with PC wealth - remember, that's an extra +1 to the CR, but it is still possible.