The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 211 to 240 of 278

Thread: Joker (2019)

  1. - Top - End - #211
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    Right now, when it comes to DC and their movies, I'm more interested in seeing Aquaman for the second time.

    Spoiler: Aquaman
    Show
    In Aquaman, he beats up the bad guys. Like it should be in a comic book movie.
    You're making the mistake of thinking this is a comic book movie. It's not. It's a character study. Frankly, I don't want to watch a guy punch another guy, because that's boring (unless it's Jackie Chan, and he works hard to make it not boring). This is a story about who this person is and how he changes. If you like watching people punch other people, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't expect this movie to be that and then dismiss it because it doesn't do that.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-15 at 10:12 AM.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
    In a Forum full of dorks, you are truly King Dork. Long may you reign!
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  2. - Top - End - #212
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    I'm also not a fan of the character at all. I've always thought that Joker is a pretty lame villain when you think about it. He's a psycho who kills people for no reason. Usually, those are called one-dimensional villains.
    Those are reasons why he is the best villain. When you have to stop and think about it to rationalize why you shouldn't like something you're just getting in your own way. Really the only thing a character actually needs is to be interesting for the audience. A pretty easy way to make a character interesting is to flesh out their backstory and make it all sad and twistedly justified. But, honestly, some of the best most memorable villains have none of that and make it through by pure charisma or terror alone. Joker, Anton Chigurh, Sauron, Moriarty, Big Brother, Joffrey, Bill Cipher. These characters are very simple in their motivations. But they wrap the audience up in their exploits in wonderful ways, or feel so oppressive the audience becomes terrified by the name. And in a lot of cases developing them further actually weakens the character. Chancellor Susan from V for Vendetta is just a developed Big Brother and he is way less interesting because of it (though V is still a great book). Which is part of why this movie isn't the Joker for me, even if it is a good movie.

    Mind you of course, when the character has no other dimensions and isn't interesting to watch then they're just a failure of a character. Onslaught comes to mind.

    Though trying to give complex motivations and rationalizations without giving them an interesting personality can be just as bad. Malekith from Thor 2 comes to mind. He has legitimate reasons for what he does. He's just so dull.


    Mind you, of course, if you aren't interested from watching the crazy clown do crazy clown things, I am by no means saying you have to like it. But Joker is in no way a lame villain.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2019-10-15 at 02:31 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #213
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Dr.Samurai's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    ICU, under a cherry tree.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    I'm mixed on this movie. I think it was very well done, but I thought some of the plot points could have used more development or were a little weak.

    Spoiler: What I liked (Spoilers)
    Show
    Joaquin Phoenix was excellent as usual. He was able to bring out the cringey or tense scenes more for me. In particular, the performance on stage at the comedy club, when he's trying to stop laughing as the guys on the train are stalking toward him, and when he is trying to mimic the actor's introduction on the late night show... these scenes were particularly tense or unsettling for me and the actor nailed them.

    I like the introduction of this chronic laughing condition. Added something new and interesting to play around with for the character.

    I loved the Joker's look. I'm not sure how to describe it other than he looks very "cool" to me.

    The movie itself also looked good with regards to direction and setting.


    Spoiler: My issues with the movie (Spoilers)
    Show
    I know this is my own personal bias but, I don't like passive characters that are bullied and downtrodden. I just have a hard time getting into them. Arthur, for a good portion of the movie, is a very sympathetic character that gets ignored or abused by many people. That makes me feel bad for him, but it also makes me feel like he is someone to take care of, in one way or another, rather than a protagonist that has agency and is moving the story forward. Things just happen to Arthur mostly, until he is given a gun and forced to defend himself. I'm not a fan of the "one bad day" notion, so this movie was already working uphill to sell me on it. But I think tacking "one bad day" onto a character like Arthur Fleck makes it even harder to swallow. He is practically harmless to anyone but those that can't defend themselves (his mother) or those that simply don't see an attack coming (everyone else he harms). Even at the end, when he's got the gun and the plan to use it, he does so while crying and ranting about how bad everyone has been to him.

    Arthur, even as "the Joker" in this scene, still seems like someone anyone can defeat. Hell, someone that approaches him nicely can probably get him to drop the gun and turn himself in. That's probably exactly what happened since police didn't kill him when they apprehended him.

    But when we see him at the end, somehow he is able to kill the doctor while cuffed and escape the room. How? One bad day suddenly erases years and years of experience, mental illness, and social influence/conditioning? It's a nice idea I suppose.

    One could argue that the meds were keeping him unable to function, but that seems counter to one of the supposed messages of this movie which is people need medicine for their mental illnesses.

    I get that it's an origin story but Arthur Fleck is a social outcast with mental illness that doesn't understand people. That he gets fed up with everyone being mean to him doesn't change much of this. He'd be a violent man that gets put in prison, end of story. If this was Michael Douglas in Falling Down, okay, maybe he becomes the Joker. But Arthur Fleck is shown to be so pathetic that it makes it that much harder to believe he is going to be anything approximating a villain, let alone a super villain, let alone Batman's greatest nemesis.

    It's just a weird sort of trope (and fantasy really I guess) that someone could be so wretched and victimized, and then become so self-actualized and powerful just because they "snapped out of it". It's like having your cake and eating it too, but I don't think it works. I don't think it helps that they made Arthur actually mentally ill as well (though this was good for this movie and maybe my overall impression is that it should have been a movie and not a "Joker" movie).

    Back to the actual movie... the girlfriend delusion was strange and didn't work for me. Several of my friends said they knew right away that she was a delusion. I didn't. I thought "this was a poor choice for the writers/director to make, there is no reason for this woman to be interested in Arthur". So I mostly ignored that aspect, which wasn't hard because she barely did anything. But then the reveal happens and I thought "what was the point of that?" So now we don't know what's real? I think they should have either committed to that bit the whole movie or scrapped it. You can have mental illness without delusions. The fantasy about the late night host being a father figure is fine, because Arthur is pathetic and outcast and longs for acknowledgement and love/warmth. But that's different from a delusion. The girlfriend part seemed tacked on for no reason.

    Similarly, I know the backdrop in Gotham worked for some people, but I thought the protests and clown theme seemed a little forced. Thomas Wayne calling everyone clowns was somewhat eye-rolling. But it's fine. Gotham has always existed with incredible wealth (the Waynes) and lots of crime (everyone Batman beats up). So it makes sense for this sort of unrest to exist. But people being inspired to riot by this fed-up murdering clown is also eye-rolling for me as well. I guess maybe I don't like frustrated people doing stuff out of frustration lol.
    Guro Tortle Ranger IC OOC DOC

    Dorn Half-orc Slayer IC OOC DOC

    Colton Human Ranger IC OOC

    Retired Characters

    Formerly Khan the Destroyer on the WotC Forums.

    Awesome Pun-Pun Avatar by the incredible AsteriskAmp!

  4. - Top - End - #214
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I'm mixed on this movie. I think it was very well done, but I thought some of the plot points could have used more development or were a little weak.

    Spoiler: What I liked (Spoilers)
    Show
    Joaquin Phoenix was excellent as usual. He was able to bring out the cringey or tense scenes more for me. In particular, the performance on stage at the comedy club, when he's trying to stop laughing as the guys on the train are stalking toward him, and when he is trying to mimic the actor's introduction on the late night show... these scenes were particularly tense or unsettling for me and the actor nailed them.

    I like the introduction of this chronic laughing condition. Added something new and interesting to play around with for the character.

    I loved the Joker's look. I'm not sure how to describe it other than he looks very "cool" to me.

    The movie itself also looked good with regards to direction and setting.


    Spoiler: My issues with the movie (Spoilers)
    Show
    I know this is my own personal bias but, I don't like passive characters that are bullied and downtrodden. I just have a hard time getting into them. Arthur, for a good portion of the movie, is a very sympathetic character that gets ignored or abused by many people. That makes me feel bad for him, but it also makes me feel like he is someone to take care of, in one way or another, rather than a protagonist that has agency and is moving the story forward. Things just happen to Arthur mostly, until he is given a gun and forced to defend himself. I'm not a fan of the "one bad day" notion, so this movie was already working uphill to sell me on it. But I think tacking "one bad day" onto a character like Arthur Fleck makes it even harder to swallow. He is practically harmless to anyone but those that can't defend themselves (his mother) or those that simply don't see an attack coming (everyone else he harms). Even at the end, when he's got the gun and the plan to use it, he does so while crying and ranting about how bad everyone has been to him.

    Arthur, even as "the Joker" in this scene, still seems like someone anyone can defeat. Hell, someone that approaches him nicely can probably get him to drop the gun and turn himself in. That's probably exactly what happened since police didn't kill him when they apprehended him.

    But when we see him at the end, somehow he is able to kill the doctor while cuffed and escape the room. How? One bad day suddenly erases years and years of experience, mental illness, and social influence/conditioning? It's a nice idea I suppose.

    One could argue that the meds were keeping him unable to function, but that seems counter to one of the supposed messages of this movie which is people need medicine for their mental illnesses.

    I get that it's an origin story but Arthur Fleck is a social outcast with mental illness that doesn't understand people. That he gets fed up with everyone being mean to him doesn't change much of this. He'd be a violent man that gets put in prison, end of story. If this was Michael Douglas in Falling Down, okay, maybe he becomes the Joker. But Arthur Fleck is shown to be so pathetic that it makes it that much harder to believe he is going to be anything approximating a villain, let alone a super villain, let alone Batman's greatest nemesis.

    It's just a weird sort of trope (and fantasy really I guess) that someone could be so wretched and victimized, and then become so self-actualized and powerful just because they "snapped out of it". It's like having your cake and eating it too, but I don't think it works. I don't think it helps that they made Arthur actually mentally ill as well (though this was good for this movie and maybe my overall impression is that it should have been a movie and not a "Joker" movie).

    Back to the actual movie... the girlfriend delusion was strange and didn't work for me. Several of my friends said they knew right away that she was a delusion. I didn't. I thought "this was a poor choice for the writers/director to make, there is no reason for this woman to be interested in Arthur". So I mostly ignored that aspect, which wasn't hard because she barely did anything. But then the reveal happens and I thought "what was the point of that?" So now we don't know what's real? I think they should have either committed to that bit the whole movie or scrapped it. You can have mental illness without delusions. The fantasy about the late night host being a father figure is fine, because Arthur is pathetic and outcast and longs for acknowledgement and love/warmth. But that's different from a delusion. The girlfriend part seemed tacked on for no reason.

    Similarly, I know the backdrop in Gotham worked for some people, but I thought the protests and clown theme seemed a little forced. Thomas Wayne calling everyone clowns was somewhat eye-rolling. But it's fine. Gotham has always existed with incredible wealth (the Waynes) and lots of crime (everyone Batman beats up). So it makes sense for this sort of unrest to exist. But people being inspired to riot by this fed-up murdering clown is also eye-rolling for me as well. I guess maybe I don't like frustrated people doing stuff out of frustration lol.
    Spoiler
    Show
    It's not just one bad day, though, is it? It's a culmination of bad days, coupled with severe mental issues. He's variously beaten, mocked, degraded, disrespected, and cast aside throughout the entire span of the movie, and we have no reason to think that it started there.

    Similarly, the protests and unrest weren't started by his actions, they were already going on; he just gave them a focal point to center on, a clear, simple, and stark "them vs us" imagery to rally around. Even the full-scale riot didn't start until the gun went off in the subway car. Arthur is not responsible for the protests and riot in general, he's responsible for channeling and focusing them around a cult of personality.

    A large part of this movie is based around the idea that the Joker wouldn't exist if people did just help him out, so him being a figure that needs help seems like a pretty big point they're trying to make.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
    In a Forum full of dorks, you are truly King Dork. Long may you reign!
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  5. - Top - End - #215
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Dr.Samurai's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    ICU, under a cherry tree.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee
    Spoiler
    Show
    It's not just one bad day, though, is it? It's a culmination of bad days, coupled with severe mental issues. He's variously beaten, mocked, degraded, disrespected, and cast aside throughout the entire span of the movie, and we have no reason to think that it started there.

    Similarly, the protests and unrest weren't started by his actions, they were already going on; he just gave them a focal point to center on, a clear, simple, and stark "them vs us" imagery to rally around. Even the full-scale riot didn't start until the gun went off in the subway car. Arthur is not responsible for the protests and riot in general, he's responsible for channeling and focusing them around a cult of personality.

    A large part of this movie is based around the idea that the Joker wouldn't exist if people did just help him out, so him being a figure that needs help seems like a pretty big point they're trying to make.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I don't mind that he is someone that needs help. I mind the kind of help he needs. As I said, I think this movie would be better as a standalone *not-Joker* film. As is, Arthur has severe mental issues, as you put it, no known skill set of any kind except how to be a clown, no confidence as he's been beaten severely since he was a child, and seems to read at a child's level given what we saw of his notes and hand-writing. He also doesn't know what makes people tick, so to speak, as seen in his attempts to laugh at jokes or the fact that everyone is weirded out by him.

    So when Arthur has one bad week, let's say, and decides to not care anymore, that only really fixes one of his great host of issues. Arthur was kind, even to people that were abusive towards him. When his coworker calls the boys that beat him up savages, Arthur says "they're just kids". He kisses the midget on the head and lets him go. But now, as the Joker, he won't take **** from anyone anymore and will mete out justice.

    Great.

    Except he is still mentally ill, not very bright, has no skills, and is off his meds and therapy. The chances that this type of person doesn't devolve into a lump of human misery, and instead becomes some genius criminal mastermind are basically non-zero.

    So the movie seems to suggest that all we ever had to do was push Arthur Fleck hard enough and he would come out of his malaise and achieve his desires. But that wouldn't really be the case with the character we're presented. But the movie simply makes it happen.
    Guro Tortle Ranger IC OOC DOC

    Dorn Half-orc Slayer IC OOC DOC

    Colton Human Ranger IC OOC

    Retired Characters

    Formerly Khan the Destroyer on the WotC Forums.

    Awesome Pun-Pun Avatar by the incredible AsteriskAmp!

  6. - Top - End - #216
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Philippines
    Gender
    Male

    Post THE JOKER FILM: Can Arthur Fleck be a hero?

    Just throwing it out there but, suppose something different happened. Suppose Thomas Wayne somehow became kind to Arthur. Would he have been a different person altogether?

  7. - Top - End - #217
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: THE JOKER FILM: Can Arthur Fleck be a hero?

    I don't think so.
    Spoiler: mild spoiler
    Show
    The film makes it clear that he is on heavy doses of multiple drugs connected with his regualr visits to a therapist. The removal of these means that he becomes a car-crash waiting to happen, the only question is how much damage he does when it happens.

    I did think the films looked like a reasonable chronicle of the devolution of a psychopath, but then I have no professional knowledge of such things.
    Spoiler: rather more significant spoiler
    Show
    Take the scenes that show him establishing a relationship with his neighbour that turn out to be completely imaginary - no matter how well intentioned, someone whis delusional is not going to have a happy ending other than a "normal" life under constant medical evaluation and care.

  8. - Top - End - #218
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: THE JOKER FILM: Can Arthur Fleck be a hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    I did think the films looked like a reasonable chronicle of the devolution of a psychopath, but then I have no professional knowledge of such things.
    Have not seen the movie but I don't think that there is such a thing as "devolution of a psychopath". Everything I have seen on psychopathy points to it's development early in life and at least some sort of biological factor being involved. People don't turn into a psychopath late in life. People however CAN turn into monsters at nearly any time in their lives or suffer from sever mental illness.
    Member of the Giants in the Playground Forum Chapter for the Movement to Reunite Gondwana!

  9. - Top - End - #219
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: THE JOKER FILM: Can Arthur Fleck be a hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    I don't think so.
    Spoiler: mild spoiler
    Show
    The film makes it clear that he is on heavy doses of multiple drugs connected with his regualr visits to a therapist. The removal of these means that he becomes a car-crash waiting to happen, the only question is how much damage he does when it happens.

    I did think the films looked like a reasonable chronicle of the devolution of a psychopath, but then I have no professional knowledge of such things.
    Spoiler: rather more significant spoiler
    Show
    Take the scenes that show him establishing a relationship with his neighbour that turn out to be completely imaginary - no matter how well intentioned, someone whis delusional is not going to have a happy ending other than a "normal" life under constant medical evaluation and care.
    1st Spoiler
    Spoiler
    Show

    That depends if Thomas is kind and financially aids Arthur, he can afford the drugs and become a better man.
    Remember, with the drugs, he is just a sick kind man.
    Without, he murders people as an easy way to avoid punishment.

  10. - Top - End - #220
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: THE JOKER FILM: Can Arthur Fleck be a hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    1st Spoiler
    Spoiler
    Show

    That depends if Thomas is kind and financially aids Arthur, he can afford the drugs and become a better man.
    Remember, with the drugs, he is just a sick kind man.
    Without, he murders people as an easy way to avoid punishment.
    Yes - but that's not going to make him a 'hero', just a nice man - someone very unsuited to surviving in the dystopia that Gotham is portrayed as.
    Last edited by Khedrac; 2019-10-18 at 12:19 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #221
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: THE JOKER FILM: Can Arthur Fleck be a hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    Yes - but that's not going to make him a 'hero', just a nice man - someone very unsuited to surviving in the dystopia that Gotham is portrayed as.
    Agreed.

    Spoiler
    Show
    The entire arc of the movie is centered around Arthur Fleck embracing a lesson that he knows from the beginning: that when no one gives a damn about him, why should anyone else?

    Murray calls this out as a bunch of self-pity at the end. And he's entirely correct. He's just by far the wrong person to do so. Because he's another guy who didn't give a damn.

    If you want to make Arthur a hero, you need the person that's nice to him to not be someone whom Arthur could blame. You need someone who gives a damn for no reason that Arthur can understand. A Bishop Myriel. Not someone Arthur reaches out to, but someone who reaches out to Arthur. In the characterization of the movie, this can't be Thomas Wayne. And then turn it around and give him a chance to care for someone he isn't expected to - maybe first because it will benefit him, but later because it's right.

    You still probably get an antihero, not a hero. Someone who thinks society is utterly broken, and who will be more than willing to sidestep it rather than work through it. But antiheroes can be heroes, too.
    Last edited by uncool; 2019-10-18 at 01:01 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #222
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Mr Stereo1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Spoiler
    Show
    A lot of people are saying Arthur is just too weak to become a supervillian and I have to agree, but in a lot of ways that makes him a better villian-protagonist and nemesis to Bruce Wayne the Reformer, if not to Batman the Superhero. Arthur had to be dysfunctional and struggling like he was to make his insanity seem like a genuine disability we'd sympathize with rather than just something tacked on to edgy sadism. That decision does leave him very badly equipped to credibly fight anyone, but that vulnerability and the public persona he has makes him an idealogical weapon.

    There's a victim culture behind a lot of criminality, which I'm not trying to convince you is right or wrong whatever your beliefs are, and broken abused Arthur makes for a great champion for that mentality. When people start digging into his horror story of a life from being abandoned as a baby, horribly abused as a toddler, cut off from his meds and social worker by budget cuts, beaten up regularly, fired from his job etc it all builds to the sense he never had any hope at all so he may as well have lashed out to get noticed. (They did miss a trick not having camera footage of the Wayne-corp goons harassing the woman and attacking Arthur leak after Thomas made his statement though, that'd have been great class warfare fuel.)

    I know they're saying it wasn't planned but I do think there's ammo for a sequel there. You'd have to be careful with building a plot that gives Arthur some agency without making him a super capable super villain but all the information is out there for Bruce to piece together this guy's life story and the cult of personality could make a breakout attempt or third party's attempt to use Joker as a figurehead credible. There's a good setup for another character study story where Bruce tries to get through to Joker, who may or may not be his half brother and indirectly got his parents killed. At least that's my two cents.
    Avatar made by the artist Chimmy.

    Insanity is checking the IC twice and expecting a different result.

  13. - Top - End - #223
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Traab's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Heh, I just had a thought. The Joker is known as an agent of chaos and here we learn its not because he is lol random, but because he sucks at supervillany so his plots and activities make no logical sense. He has no idea what he is doing so he is throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  14. - Top - End - #224
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    The Joker's real superpower is being immortal.
    Spoiler
    Show
    He gets two beatings over the course of the movie and is in a car accident that knocks out or kills the drivers. His injuries are always superficial, and he recovers at an impossible rate.

    I dropped a 1/4 lb iron bar on my arm in july and it took until the end of august to heal. He took kicks to the kidney that could kill someone twice in a week and is better within a few days each time.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-10-20 at 01:22 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #225
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    A place near Boulder.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The Joker's real superpower is being immortal.
    Spoiler
    Show
    He gets two beatings over the course of the movie and is in a car accident that knocks out or kills the drivers. His injuries are always superficial, and he recovers at an impossible rate.

    I dropped a 1/4 lb iron bar on my arm in july and it took until the end of august to heal. He took kicks to the kidney that could kill someone twice in a week and is better within a few days each time.
    In the words of Calvin: Nah, they all can do that.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  16. - Top - End - #226
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    I just saw it, and I am a little mixed on this one as well.

    I suppose this is where I start spoilertagging.

    Spoiler
    Show
    I think the most unsettling thing about this movie is how close it hits to home. I found the Arthur character VERY identifiable, and realized that with a couple of setbacks that could well be me. I even have a similar condition to him, which made it even eerier (Once I start laughing out loud, it is difficult to stop. I sometimes have laughing fits that last half an hour or more).

    The main thing I disliked about this movie is the lack of variety in the violence. It seems the director knows of only one way to non-lethally hurt someone: throw them to the floor and start gabbering. Some were doing it so rhythmically that it genuinely did look like the dance.

    The subjective perspective of the film, I did like. Understanding that what may be real and what may not be is entirely up to the audience.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The Joker's real superpower is being immortal.
    Spoiler
    Show
    He gets two beatings over the course of the movie and is in a car accident that knocks out or kills the drivers. His injuries are always superficial, and he recovers at an impossible rate.

    I dropped a 1/4 lb iron bar on my arm in july and it took until the end of august to heal. He took kicks to the kidney that could kill someone twice in a week and is better within a few days each time.
    I do believe a LOT more time passes in this film than you think...
    Last edited by weckar; 2019-10-21 at 02:58 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #227
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Alright, so...watchd it. Excellent movie. No real desire to ever see it again.

    It's not that there's plot holes or anything of that nature, really. The plot is quite consistent, well executed, etc. Sure, I can buy that some people would say this joker is a departure from other jokers, but that's...usually the case. Within the context of this one film, the progression largely makes sense.

    It's more that there is really nobody in the entire film to like or root for. The fact that it works at all despite that is impressive, but it really hurts wanting to see it again.

    A family saw it at the same time I did. They brought all of their wee kids, I have to presume because they believed it was a comic book movie. The kids cried a lot. I don't think they enjoyed it much. Probably not a great choice for a family film.
    Back from a lengthy vacation from Giantitp. I've been dabbling with 3d printer technology and game design, PM if you're curious.

    "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization."

    New: Tyndmyr has a game shop!

  18. - Top - End - #228
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Alright, so...watchd it. Excellent movie. No real desire to ever see it again.

    It's not that there's plot holes or anything of that nature, really. The plot is quite consistent, well executed, etc. Sure, I can buy that some people would say this joker is a departure from other jokers, but that's...usually the case. Within the context of this one film, the progression largely makes sense.

    It's more that there is really nobody in the entire film to like or root for. The fact that it works at all despite that is impressive, but it really hurts wanting to see it again.

    A family saw it at the same time I did. They brought all of their wee kids, I have to presume because they believed it was a comic book movie. The kids cried a lot. I don't think they enjoyed it much. Probably not a great choice for a family film.
    I had the same feeling when I watched it, my brother and I compared it with There Will be Blood. I saw it once, I really don't need to watch a movie about the awful bleakness of the human condition twice.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  19. - Top - End - #229
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    And here I am trying to find out when my friends plan to see it so I can go with them as an excuse to see it again. I also love the Scott's Tots episode.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-24 at 03:40 PM.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
    In a Forum full of dorks, you are truly King Dork. Long may you reign!
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  20. - Top - End - #230
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Santa Barbara, CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    So I'll be honest and say it was good but not great.
    Spoiler: Positives
    Show

    I really liked the unreliable narrator aspect.

    Wonderfully shot, visually the story is better than the script.

    I liked how they dealt with Thomas Wayne...including how he really set off the riots more than the Joker did (I would say his calling the masses "Clowns" in a very us-vs-them manner is what really set things off)

    Music /Score...esp if you feel like using the strong variance in score as a delusion/reality clue

    The mum...really good...and her diagnosis was called almost perfectly by the psych PhD i went to the movie with, well before it appeared in the film

    his overall decent was handled well IMO

    The attack on the gun supplier in his apartment was a great scene
    .

    Spoiler: Negatives
    Show

    It felt rather blunt. Especially early on the emotional beats feel more like emotional club hits

    Showing the GF delusion as one felt a bit leading around by the nose...I thought it took away from the emotional impact of the moment

    I felt the ending explaining himself speech was too Aesop-Fable-here-is-the-moral and thus didn't hit very hard for me.

    it felt like it was try to say something more than show a window into a very extreme but very human case and letting you put the pieces together yourself.

    The abuse and hit to head (which is actually a major driver of the RW laughing issue Arthur seem to have-but usually have a crying aspect as well) felt a bit like the moral dignity pants that Hannibal Lecter complained about in Silence of the Lambs.

    I kind of wanted ... a bit more randomness I guess? Even if it was a side trait.

    Many of the side/small characters felt almost harshly one dimensional...which may well be an active directorial choice...a side effect of seeing the world through Arthur's eyes..but it didn't really work for me. The cardboard cutout aspect of how many, but not all, of the side characters does bring out a very Joker talking to them as a tableau in his lair which kind of pulls on the idea this could have worked but didn't quite land for me.

    Also Arthur was a very passive protagonist IMO. Most of the movie happened TOO him. If it was trying to make the darkness seem inevitable, it failed. But there was never that idea that Arthur turned into the darkness. It never felt like Arthur made key choices....to grab his mother's file maybe? But after a week that is the only one I can remember.

    so overall just didn't land its emotional punches well for me.
    Last edited by sktarq; 2019-10-24 at 08:52 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #231
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post

    It's more that there is really nobody in the entire film to like or root for. The fact that it works at all despite that is impressive, but it really hurts wanting to see it again.

    A family saw it at the same time I did. They brought all of their wee kids, I have to presume because they believed it was a comic book movie. The kids cried a lot. I don't think they enjoyed it much. Probably not a great choice for a family film.
    Nah, I rooted for Arthur when he was attacked by the three dudes.
    I rooted for the dwarf when he was scared in that apartment.

    Those kids might be scarred for life. Great parenting.

  22. - Top - End - #232
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Nah, I rooted for Arthur when he was attacked by the three dudes.
    I rooted for the dwarf when he was scared in that apartment.
    I was about as scared for the dwarf as he was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Those kids might be scarred for life. Great parenting.
    Imean, I agree completely, but you'd be amazed at what some people take their kids to see.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
    In a Forum full of dorks, you are truly King Dork. Long may you reign!
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  23. - Top - End - #233
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    The dwarf scene was darkly hilarious and I greatly enjoyed it, yeah. I don't think the kids did, though.
    Back from a lengthy vacation from Giantitp. I've been dabbling with 3d printer technology and game design, PM if you're curious.

    "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization."

    New: Tyndmyr has a game shop!

  24. - Top - End - #234
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    The dwarf scene was darkly hilarious and I greatly enjoyed it, yeah. I don't think the kids did, though.
    Definitely the hardest I ever laughed while being scared ****less.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
    In a Forum full of dorks, you are truly King Dork. Long may you reign!
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  25. - Top - End - #235
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    A family saw it at the same time I did. They brought all of their wee kids, I have to presume because they believed it was a comic book movie. The kids cried a lot. I don't think they enjoyed it much. Probably not a great choice for a family film.
    I watched families walk out of Deadpool in my theater. You'd think enforcing film ratings wouldn't be that complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  26. - Top - End - #236
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I watched families walk out of Deadpool in my theater. You'd think enforcing film ratings wouldn't be that complicated.
    Nothing to enforce; if someone under 17 has someone over 21 buy their tickets, they are free to watch the movie*. And trying to tell them it's a bad idea usually ends poorly for the worker.

    *At least, in the US.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-25 at 04:38 PM.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
    In a Forum full of dorks, you are truly King Dork. Long may you reign!
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  27. - Top - End - #237
    Troll in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I watched families walk out of Deadpool in my theater. You'd think enforcing film ratings wouldn't be that complicated.
    The key word there is "family". An R-rated film like Deadpool is perfectly legal for an adult to bring a minor to.

    Either the movie theater staff told the family it's R-rated and were ignored, or the staff were tired of being yelled at for telling families it's R-rated and decided to let the problem sort itself out.

  28. - Top - End - #238
    Troll in the Playground
     
    JadedDM's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Washington, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Yeah, Rated R doesn't mean kids can't see it, it just means they can't see it without a parent or guardian. If the parent/guardian brings their kids in, there's nothing the theater staff can do but politely suggest it's not a good idea.

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I watched families walk out of Deadpool in my theater. You'd think enforcing film ratings wouldn't be that complicated.
    Well Deadpool is Rated R. They would realized that Deadpool is not even a family movie.

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well Deadpool is Rated R. They would realized that Deadpool is not even a family movie.
    I once had someone ask to buy a ticket for the sound system, because that was one of the posters in the front outdoor wall.
    In his defense, he just thought the poster looked cool and he laughed it off.
    No, they would not realize that Deadpool is not a family movie.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-25 at 04:44 PM.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
    In a Forum full of dorks, you are truly King Dork. Long may you reign!
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •