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Thread: Joker (2019)

  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Joker? I hardly know (h)'er! I hope that jokes in the movie. I worked real hard on it.

    I also have a feeling this film has zero CGI. I mean it might just to touch up a few things here and there, but given the trailers it all looks real: no sky lasers or disposable CGI army. What even was the last Hollywood superhero movie to come out that didn't use CGI? The Batman film where he had bat shark repellent?

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    So DC fans are angry that this deviates from canonical Joker comic-book stories? Really? They should be on their knees with gratitude for the Joker getting a good movie, with good direction and good acting, especially after the Leto ****show.

    It's a different take on the Joker, and DC is even officially calling this approach Worlds of DC, it's explicitly an Elseworlds approach. Jeez get over it.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2019-10-02 at 09:06 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil DM Mark3 View Post
    To refer to The Killing Joke, the point of that comic was to explore, not his origin, but his philosophy. The Joker holds that everyone is one bad day away from being him and that Batman is just as crazy as he is. He is also definitively proven wrong by the end of the story.
    I'd say that's highly debatable. The ending of the comic is deliberately ambiguous.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    So DC fans are angry that this deviates from canonical Joker comic-book stories? Really? They should be on their knees with gratitude for the Joker getting a good movie, with good direction and good acting, especially after the Leto ****show.

    It's a different take on the Joker, and DC is even officially calling this approach Worlds of DC, it's explicitly an Elseworlds approach. Jeez get over it.
    Some fan somewhere is going to be mad at any adaptation, might as well learn to ignore it. The outrage is meaningless noise, the only thing thst really matters is ticket sales.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    I just got back from an early screening of the movie in my town’s theater, it was interesting, for sure. I rarely go for character-based movies, but it was pretty tense throughout, there seemed to be an attention to detail that kept me hooked on it, and I was ecstatic that they
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    used the delusional/unreliable narrator element. I wasn’t really expecting that going into the film, but I think it really helped show Arthur’s descent.

    Overall I would recommend if you are interested in dark character movies, analyzing little details, or looking for a twist on the well-known Joker stories. It’s definitely not a comic-book movie, though, and it gets really dark in spots, which might be a dealbreaker for some.
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    I'm hoping for Joker sequel, this time with Batman.
    They can call it Why so Serious, Batman?

    But I loved it.
    That slow descent to being who he is known for.
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    It wasn't just one bad day though.
    They went with the idea that everything is connected.
    a. If they hadn't cut drug/mental illness funding.
    b. If Thomas Wayne hadn't been a jerk.
    c. If Arthur had explained himself better: I killed them in self defense.
    d. His mom hadn't let him be abused when he was younger and lie.

    Although, we don't know if Wayne didn't falsify records to keep Arthur from being a legit bastard hier to the throne.



    This is a pretty interesting universe of Batman. Probably not canon universe in the comics or cartoons, but maybe main movie universe.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    I'm hoping for Joker sequel, this time with Batman.
    They can call it Why so Serious, Batman?

    But I loved it.
    That slow descent to being who he is known for.
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    It wasn't just one bad day though.
    They went with the idea that everything is connected.
    a. If they hadn't cut drug/mental illness funding.
    b. If Thomas Wayne hadn't been a jerk.
    c. If Arthur had explained himself better: I killed them in self defense.
    d. His mom hadn't let him be abused when he was younger and lie.

    Although, we don't know if Wayne didn't falsify records to keep Arthur from being a legit bastard hier to the throne.



    This is a pretty interesting universe of Batman. Probably not canon universe in the comics or cartoons, but maybe main movie universe.
    but if this is movie canon, then who is the real joker, this guy or leto?
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Today I went to see Joker and I'm going to give you my honest review about it.

    Spoiler: My Thoughts On Joker
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    So anyway today I saw the movie Joker. It's about the origin of Batman iconic villain. And his origin was very sad and depressing, to be honest. It's about how Joker work at a dead-end job, beaten up with a bunch of punk teenagers, a false friend gives him a gun. Trying to do stand up comedy. Got himself fired for bringing a gun to the children hospital, murdered three business guys, killed his ex-friend then killed the Johnny Carson parody guy, caused chaos at the street and end up in an asylum. And what I think about this movie. It was awesome. I enjoy it. This movie was very climatic to show how a psychopathic man released his insanity. I'm don't know if this canon because of there so many version of Joker origins in comic books, TV shows, cartoons and other movies. But I really enjoy it and in my opinion, it's Oscar-worthy. So I'll give this movie 5 out of 5 stars.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2019-10-05 at 05:34 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Just got back from it and it was OK-to-good. Phoenix did a very good job and carried the movie easily on his scrawny, bruised shoulders and his performance is basically everything good about the movie. Most of the technical aspects of the movie were very well done, and there was nothing to dislike about the performances of the supporting cast. The reasons I don't consider it a very good movie is personal preference.
    1. I don't like depressing movies, especially the ones that are too real. This one hits a bit closer to home than I like.
    2. The Joker wasn't Joker enough.
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    A couple murders, make-up and some pained laughter doesn't a Clown Prince of Crime make.
    Remove the make-up and the name and there wouldn't be all that much to tell you this was supposed to be the Joker. He lacked the showmanship, the bombasticity, the overwhelming presence that the Joker has. Even a more 'down to earth' interpretation as such the Ledger Joker was definitely the Joker. Nicholson was obviously the Joker. Leto was obviously the Joker. Phoenix was not obviously the Joker. Maybe if you sort of squint and think that realism is better than fantasy, he sorta-kinda looks like a Joker, I guess.
    This was an origin story, and in an origin story you really need the character to actually come into his own at the end, and this was at best half-baked. Maybe some day he could become the Joker, but as it is Arthur Fleck is just a painted killer.
    If you've seen the trailer, you've basically seen the movie and the rest is just details.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-06 at 09:34 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    I'm hoping for Joker sequel, this time with Batman.
    They can call it Why so Serious, Batman?
    Or...OR...and hear me out because this might sound a little crazy...they don't make a sequel, and we all just appreciate what we have. We appreciate the wit of this film because there's only one of it - because the experience of watching it and experiencing this story is brevity. Am I making sense? Not everything has to be this big, huge story with twenty spinoffs and future installments.

    I actually heard good things about this film. I might actually see it in theaters which is saying something because I typically only see one film on average in theaters.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    but if this is movie canon, then who is the real joker, this guy or leto?
    Pretty sure DC is as eager to forget all about Leto's Juggaloker as the rest of us. (Most of the rest of us anyway.)

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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Pretty sure DC is as eager to forget all about Leto's Juggaloker as the rest of us. (Most of the rest of us anyway.)
    Talk about DC ripping of the MCU as usual. First Marvel create an awful adaptation featuring a poor representation of the Mandarin, and then DC does the same thing with the Joker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWR View Post
    Just got back from it and it was OK-to-good. Phoenix did a very good job and carried the movie easily on his scrawny, bruised shoulders and his performance is basically everything good about the movie. Most of the technical aspects of the movie were very well done, and there was nothing to dislike about the performances of the supporting cast. The reasons I don't consider it a very good movie is personal preference.
    1. I don't like depressing movies, especially the ones that are too real. This one hits a bit closer to home than I like.
    2. The Joker wasn't Joker enough.
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    A couple murders, make-up and some pained laughter doesn't a Clown Prince of Crime make.
    Remove the make-up and the name and there wouldn't be all that much to tell you this was supposed to be the Joker. He lacked the showmanship, the bombasticity, the overwhelming presence that the Joker has. Even a more 'down to earth' interpretation as such the Ledger Joker was definitely the Joker. Nicholson was obviously the Joker. Leto was obviously the Joker. Phoenix was not obviously the Joker. Maybe if you sort of squint and think that realism is better than fantasy, he sorta-kinda looks like a Joker, I guess.
    This was an origin story, and in an origin story you really need the character to actually come into his own at the end, and this was at best half-baked. Maybe some day he could become the Joker, but as it is Arthur Fleck is just a painted killer.
    If you've seen the trailer, you've basically seen the movie and the rest is just details.
    I could not disagree more.

    First off, unpopular opinion here, but Jack Nicholson's Joker was terrible. He was a mob boss, he had definitive plans, he just acted all kooky about them. He had a freaking catch phrase for when he killed people. He killed the Waynes for no reason other than to give Batman a connection to him. The ridiculous pistol was the most Joker-ish thing about him, and even that was pretty terrible overall because you have Batman literally shooting guns at the Joker. The movie gave us a pretty bad version of Batman, Joker, and more or less everyone else who was supposed to be important. No slight to Jack Nicholson here, he did the best with what they gave him (as did Michael Keaton), it's just what they gave him was crap.

    And Jared Leto? Really? Imean, the rest of the movie aside, what about the Joker screams "will sit still for hours upon hours to get "ha ha" tattooed over his entire body?"

    The current Joker movie?
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    As soon as he gets off his meds, he's pretty much Joker to a T, and even before then you see a lot of incredibly Joker-ish mannerisms. He absolutely nailed the laugh, it was about as creepy as I've ever heard in a live-action Joker (and gave Hamill a run for his money, IMO). The run was probably the best part, he had an absolutely spectacular run.
    The murder with the scissors was impulsive, fast, sloppy, and vicious. The de Niro murder was back to normal immediately afterwards, just acting as if nothing in the world was wrong. The dancing, the lack of nervousness, the confidence and certainty and mockery as he just bumbled his way away from the cops in the subway, starting the full-blown riot we see after he leaves... This guy was absolutely the Joker through and through.

    More to the point, it's a character study. You don't go to see Batman Begins and expect to see almost a whole movie of inner turmoil. Of course he's going to slowly morph into becoming the Joker over the course of the film, that's the entire point of the film. If you didn't like the slow burn to fully finish the transformation, I'd at least understand, but I can't even get that you think he wasn't full-blown Joker by the time he took the stage on the Murray Franklin Show.

    Hell, this movie did more to explain the Joker's henchmen than any other media I've seen. Joker is an inspiration point for the disenfranchised, they see him as a leader and one who they can rally behind. Literally every other Joker, if you think for just one second "why do low-level thugs follow him?" it doesn't hold up. There's no discernible reason. This Joker, though, you can immediately see why he's able to have an entire gang. That alone makes him a better Joker than any other live-action Joker. He's a transformative figure, despite not trying to be one. He starts an entire movement, he spearheads a new wave of crime in Gotham, and you get to actually see it happen in a logical and straightforward way.


    The "depressing" part I can totally understand though. It's super dark. I just happened to love that.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-06 at 09:38 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Talk about DC ripping of the MCU as usual. First Marvel create an awful adaptation featuring a poor representation of the Mandarin, and then DC does the same thing with the Joker.
    Eh, MCU may have used the Mandarin's name, but everything else about IM3 took far more inspiration from the Extremis storyline. I consider the Mandarin to still have not been adapted at all beyond marketing purposes; at the very least, they weren't actually trying, which is more than I can say for the DCEU's continued flailing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Or...OR...and hear me out because this might sound a little crazy...they don't make a sequel, and we all just appreciate what we have. We appreciate the wit of this film because there's only one of it - because the experience of watching it and experiencing this story is brevity. Am I making sense? Not everything has to be this big, huge story with twenty spinoffs and future installments.

    I actually heard good things about this film. I might actually see it in theaters which is saying something because I typically only see one film on average in theaters.
    Could not agree more. Everything I've heard about this film suggests it to be an art film that just happens to use a DC character. That's not a film you make a series out of.

    Planning on seeing the movie later this week. I'm getting fairly hyped for it. Super dark and depressing studies of society are something I like every now and then (one favorite being Brassed Off), and this looks to fit the bill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Eh, MCU may have used the Mandarin's name, but everything else about IM3 took far more inspiration from the Extremis storyline. I consider the Mandarin to still have not been adapted at all beyond marketing purposes;
    There is a Marvel one shot called "All Hail the King" where it's revealed that the real Mandarin exists, is the leader of the 10 rings from IM1, and has Ben Kingsley's fake Mandarin killed. I think it was released as an extra on the Thor Dark World special Edition DVD.

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    I still say DC should have gone dark mirror on copying the mcu by focusing on the villains, not the heroes and this movie shows how it could have worked. The people actually enjoy a good bad guy focused movie even when its a bad guy who really shouldnt have an origin story. To heck with the justice league, thats nothing but directly ripping off the avengers movie series, I wouldnt have minded a Suicide Squad movie that acted as the culmination of all these bad guy "origin stories" where they wind up in jail, then get recruited by waller. Its still in the end similar to the avengers, but by focusing on the bad guys with heroes being more of the antagonist of the movie, we get these well grounded bad guys with well explored personalities and abilities rather than the rushed job of suicide squad we got. And since the suicide squad has had many incarnations, it gives room to create a ton of origin films to see which ones the audience likes the most. If they dont like boomerang? Toss him, bring in killer frost, etc etc. It would have been similar enough to fit the winning formula the mcu created, but different enough to be DC, not Marvel.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    One question. Is Joker consider a villain or supervillain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    One question. Is Joker consider a villain or supervillain?
    Depends on the presentation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    One question. Is Joker consider a villain or supervillain?
    In storyline Emperor Joker, he became a God like being. In Batman games, he became a super mutant.

    Depends on the work, really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by napoleon_in_rag View Post
    There is a Marvel one shot called "All Hail the King" where it's revealed that the real Mandarin exists, is the leader of the 10 rings from IM1, and has Ben Kingsley's fake Mandarin killed. I think it was released as an extra on the Thor Dark World special Edition DVD.
    And the Mandarin will be the villain in the Shang Chi film.


    IRT the Jared Leto Joker, I'll just leave this here:
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    Last edited by Clertar; 2019-10-07 at 07:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    One question. Is Joker consider a villain or supervillain?
    What, in your opinion, is the difference?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    What, in your opinion, is the difference?
    Superpowers

    A mob boss is a villain. Magneto which has superpowers is a supervillain. I guess, anyone that buys a super-suit and uses it to terrorize the populace is a supervillain as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Superpowers

    A mob boss is a villain. Magneto which has superpowers is a supervillain. I guess, anyone that buys a super-suit and uses it to terrorize the populace is a supervillain as well.
    So would this mean that Batman isn't a superhero?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    So would this mean that Batman isn't a superhero?
    And most of the Rogues Gallery aren't supervillains.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-07 at 08:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Superpowers

    A mob boss is a villain. Magneto which has superpowers is a supervillain. I guess, anyone that buys a super-suit and uses it to terrorize the populace is a supervillain as well.
    What he said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    What he said.
    Then why would you ask if Joker is a supervillain? He would never be a supervillain in that context.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Then why would you ask if Joker is a supervillain? He would never be a supervillain in that context.
    It just got me wondering that's all.

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    It's the same as with Superheroes, it's branding.

    I mean, "Superhero" is a meaningless term as it's not like the American comic industry invented the idea of giving heroic characters superpowers or anything - the Sumerians got them beat by a couple thousand years at least - but with marketing the Superhero has developed an identity of its own. Even heroes who don't possess any "super" qualities can qualify in the wider cultural sphere as Superheroes when they share the associated brand.

    It's kind of like the word "apps", it's a stupid buzzword term objectively but it's been used wide and long enough within its own context - and by software & hardware developers - as to have its own meaning regardless.

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    Joker is not normally a metahuman, no. If that's the bar for "supervillain" then he isn't, though with that said, there have been numerous storylines where he either becomes one or is able to manipulate other metahumans to achieve his ends anyway, so I don't think the distinction is all that important in the grand scheme.

    Personally I don't consider metahuman to be a requirement for supervillainy. Lex Luthor is just as muggle as Joker, minus that power suit he sometimes wears, yet I would always consider him to be a supervillain even when he's outside of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I still say DC should have gone dark mirror on copying the mcu by focusing on the villains, not the heroes and this movie shows how it could have worked. The people actually enjoy a good bad guy focused movie even when its a bad guy who really shouldnt have an origin story. To heck with the justice league, thats nothing but directly ripping off the avengers movie series, I wouldnt have minded a Suicide Squad movie that acted as the culmination of all these bad guy "origin stories" where they wind up in jail, then get recruited by waller. Its still in the end similar to the avengers, but by focusing on the bad guys with heroes being more of the antagonist of the movie, we get these well grounded bad guys with well explored personalities and abilities rather than the rushed job of suicide squad we got. And since the suicide squad has had many incarnations, it gives room to create a ton of origin films to see which ones the audience likes the most. If they dont like boomerang? Toss him, bring in killer frost, etc etc. It would have been similar enough to fit the winning formula the mcu created, but different enough to be DC, not Marvel.
    I mean, you might get your wish, if James Gunn's Suicide Squad (notably omitting Jared Leto) takes off.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

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