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Thread: Joker (2019)

  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    So would this mean that Batman isn't a superhero?
    He definitely isn't a super at least in any meaningful way. But as other said, people consider this superhero genre, and him hence a superhero.
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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    This definitorial view of super-heroes derived from the existence of super-powers is totally a posteriori. Let's fotget about this genre for a second and think normal: a hero is anyone who does something heroic. "Those firemen are heroes", "This alpinist was a true hero" etc. In a specific type of comics in the 20th century, a sort of professional type of heroes appeared, called super-heroes, probably influenced by or connected to names like Super-man's, influenced by the Nietzchean super-human.

    A super-hero is someone beyond a regular hero, it's an hyperbolic hero. Batman is a super-hero since his inception, as are many non-powered super-heroes like the Phantom (the Ghost who Walks). Mirroring super-heroes, someone with the same showmanship and hyperbolic nature that acts for evil instead of good received by analogy the name of super-hero.

    Both are orthogonal to having super-powers, which are just powers beyond those of a regular human but are not defining properties of super-heroes or -villains: you can have non-powered super-heroes (e.g. Batman, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Green Arrow), and super-powered not-super-heroes (like your average inhuman or asgardian in the Marvel universe).
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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    He definitely isn't a super at least in any meaningful way. But as other said, people consider this superhero genre, and him hence a superhero.

    I disagree. Batman is a man with genius level intellect; who is in pique physical condition; who is a master of multiple martial arts; who is a CEO of a successful multibillion dollar company; who moonlights as a billionaire-playboy-philanthropist-celebrity; who fights crime all night in his home city; who goes on globe trotting adventures to foreign countries, other planets and - even - other planes of existence with the Justice League; who finds the time to sleep every night; who eats three meals a day; who goes to the gym everyday; who reads an excessive amount of books; who researches new technologies, new crime fighting techniques and new psychological and psychiatric papers; who builds and maintains his own gadgets and vehicles; who finds the time to date several eligible baccalaureates; who raises several orphans to be well rounded adults; who serves as a surrogate father and mentor to a dozen or so crime fighters in Gotham; who equips and trains half a dozen international Batmen; who keeps tabs on all of the villains in Gotham; who devices ingenious plans to thwart said villains, as well as any rogue member of the Justice League; who also takes the time to help other, non-Gotham based heroes with their hogwash problems; who also takes the time out of his day to visit his employees and make sure they are living a good fulfilling life. If he is not a super human - in some way - then either he is a Mary Sue or we are not living the best versions of our lives!
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felhammer View Post
    I disagree. Batman is a man with genius level intellect; who is in pique physical condition; who is a master of multiple martial arts; who is a CEO of a successful multibillion dollar company; who moonlights as a billionaire-playboy-philanthropist-celebrity; who fights crime all night in his home city; who goes on globe trotting adventures to foreign countries, other planets and - even - other planes of existence with the Justice League; who finds the time to sleep every night; who eats three meals a day; who goes to the gym everyday; who reads an excessive amount of books; who researches new technologies, new crime fighting techniques and new psychological and psychiatric papers; who builds and maintains his own gadgets and vehicles; who finds the time to date several eligible baccalaureates; who raises several orphans to be well rounded adults; who serves as a surrogate father and mentor to a dozen or so crime fighters in Gotham; who equips and trains half a dozen international Batmen; who keeps tabs on all of the villains in Gotham; who devices ingenious plans to thwart said villains, as well as any rogue member of the Justice League; who also takes the time to help other, non-Gotham based heroes with their hogwash problems; who also takes the time out of his day to visit his employees and make sure they are living a good fulfilling life. If he is not a super human - in some way - then either he is a Mary Sue or we are not living the best versions of our lives!
    Now I am imagining a world where no one ever slacks off and are genius level intellects. Cleaning toilets in seconds, cooking a hundred meals at a time, driving at 400 miles an hour to drop off passengers and never having an accident.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Superpowers

    A mob boss is a villain. Magneto which has superpowers is a supervillain. I guess, anyone that buys a super-suit and uses it to terrorize the populace is a supervillain as well.


    Does that mean Lex Luthor is not a Super Villain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by napoleon_in_rag View Post
    Does that mean Lex Luthor is not a Super Villain?
    It isn't super as in magic powers, it is an intensifier for villain. He isn't just some normal villain, he is a super villain.

    The whole thing is even funnier when you know that villain means peasant, so Lex Luthor the billionaire is super poor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Now I am imagining a world where no one ever slacks off and are genius level intellects. Cleaning toilets in seconds, cooking a hundred meals at a time, driving at 400 miles an hour to drop off passengers and never having an accident.
    If only we could lead our best lives...

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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by napoleon_in_rag View Post
    There is a Marvel one shot called "All Hail the King" where it's revealed that the real Mandarin exists, is the leader of the 10 rings from IM1, and has Ben Kingsley's fake Mandarin killed. I think it was released as an extra on the Thor Dark World special Edition DVD.
    He will be the main villain of Chang Shi: Master of Kung Fu.

    Edit: And already mentioned.

    As for Joker I'm rather looking forward to seeing it. I've always enjoyed the tense psycho-dramas from the 70s.
    Last edited by Beleriphon; 2019-10-07 at 04:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Frankly, I'm looking forward to seeing it again. It's pretty visceral.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-07 at 05:12 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Could not agree more. Everything I've heard about this film suggests it to be an art film that just happens to use a DC character. That's not a film you make a series out of.
    Wow! Someone actually believes in my extreme opinions. I feel validated.

    On that note I have a question. Of the superhero/comicbook adaptations that came out already this year...

    -Captain Marvel
    -Endgame
    -Far from Home
    -Shazam
    -Dark Phoenix
    -Hellboy

    ..where do you rank Joker? I'm asking because I've heard some people say its the best film they've seen all year - a year where Endgame came out. Endgame a film with SO much CGI, is three hours long, and the 22nd installment in a series - in your opinion does this little stand alone film surpass it in terms of quality. Quality and not box office returns I do stress. I mean all Joker has going for it is a very talented actor in the lead role which in all honesty should be the defining point of a film. And if it seems like I'm attacking Endgame you could ask the same with Dark Phoenix: another film with a lot of CGI in a series with...I don't know how many previous installments. Is there even any CGI in Joker?

    I'm not so much attack any one specific film, but the current state of cinema. These never ending series that over rely on special effects - I mean there was a new Rambo film that also came out and I heard that was bad. Yet another series that has gone on far too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Wow! Someone actually believes in my extreme opinions. I feel validated.

    On that note I have a question. Of the superhero/comicbook adaptations that came out already this year...

    -Captain Marvel
    -Endgame
    -Far from Home
    -Shazam
    -Dark Phoenix
    -Hellboy

    ..where do you rank Joker? I'm asking because I've heard some people say its the best film they've seen all year - a year where Endgame came out. Endgame a film with SO much CGI, is three hours long, and the 22nd installment in a series - in your opinion does this little stand alone film surpass it in terms of quality. Quality and not box office returns I do stress. I mean all Joker has going for it is a very talented actor in the lead role which in all honesty should be the defining point of a film. And if it seems like I'm attacking Endgame you could ask the same with Dark Phoenix: another film with a lot of CGI in a series with...I don't know how many previous installments. Is there even any CGI in Joker?

    I'm not so much attack any one specific film, but the current state of cinema. These never ending series that over rely on special effects - I mean there was a new Rambo film that also came out and I heard that was bad. Yet another series that has gone on far too long.
    I haven't seen it yet, I'm hoping to see it on Wednesday or another day later this week. But I can probably do some pre-rating for you to give some idea of my thoughts going in.

    I haven't seen Dark Phoenix, Shazam, or Hellboy, so I can't rate those. Other than Shazam (which I want to see at some point), I didn't watch Dark Phoenix or Hellboy because I heard they were terrible. So...put those at the bottom and Shazam off to one side?

    I will say that it almost certainly will not beat out Endgame for me. It was the culmination of 10 years worth of build-up and will probably be #2 on my "greatest all time" list for the forseeable future. #1 is Last Crusade, because nobody beats Ford and Connery in the same film. Nobody.

    Captain Marvel and Far From Home were both solid films, but nothing all that special either. Captain Marvel was definitely better than Far From Home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Could not agree more. Everything I've heard about this film suggests it to be an art film that just happens to use a DC character. That's not a film you make a series out of.
    I disagree quite strongly. Rather than seeing endless versions of basically the same incarnation of the Joker and Batman, I'd like to see something actually new and original explored. When DC comics do the equivalent, it usually gets fan support. When Marvel does it with films (think Spider-man as incarnated in the MCU or in Into the Spider-Verse), it usually gets fan support. Why do I get the feeling that DC fans want to see only very specific beats that they have in their head depicted in film?

    This Joker film presented a very original view of the Batman world. The chaotic situation of Gotham City, the death of Bruce Wayne's parents, it was all caused directly or indirectly by the Joker. In this Gotham where the rich are such pricks and there's so much misery, what type of Batman would Bruce Wayne become? It's a very gray world, one in which it's not totally clear who is doing evil and who's not. How would that Batman play off against this Joker, who is a mass murderer but also deep down a clearly damaged person* that just needs, or needed, some help? Would this Batman be out for revenge, or would he set out to help Gotham? Would he be the champion of the Gotham aristocracy against the masses, would he fight for the people?

    In the Nolan-verse, Batman was the first one to dress up, the first super, which ignited a series of similarly dressed-up super-criminals. In the Todd Phillips-verse, the Joker is the one to start that. What is this Joker like 10-15 years down the line, what has he become? How has his appearence influenced the creation of bombastic, dressed-up criminals (and heroes like Batman)?

    I want to see that way more than I want to see Robert Pattinson as younger Batfleck, to be honest.


    *Even if it's not tattooed on his forehead.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2019-10-08 at 10:26 AM.
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    When DC comics does what you're talking about, they're stand alone stories like this one. It's what makes them special. Stories not trapped by continuity or trying to tie it into something else. Films like this should be separate. That's what allows such creative freedom.
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    I have no first-hand knowledge of them, but it seems like alternate universes are pretty common in Marvel and DC, so I see no reason why more movies couldn't explore this specific Joker more. I don't think they will, and I don't know if they'd be as good as this one if they did, but don't understand why they couldn't.
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    Todd Phillips is suggesting that Arthur Fleck may have inspired Batman's Joker instead of being the real Clown Prince of Crime himself. For me this is the best of both worlds - the obligatory DC trappings like Thomas Wayne aren't completely pointless this way, but this movie can still stand alone without having to worry about tying Arthur in with Batman and his other rogues. We also don't end up with yet another Joker who is 30 years older than Bruce and directly tied to his family before he even began his crusade (*sideeyes Tim Burton's Batman*). I certainly couldn't picture Joaquin's Joker zipping around town abusing Harley Quinn, releasing laughing gas all over the city, or bashing Jason Todd's head in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I have no first-hand knowledge of them, but it seems like alternate universes are pretty common in Marvel and DC, so I see no reason why more movies couldn't explore this specific Joker more. I don't think they will, and I don't know if they'd be as good as this one if they did, but don't understand why they couldn't.
    Individual films can certainly go alternate universe, but I think running more than one universe as a franchise can cause confusion in non-comic fans. But as stated above, they don't have to - this Joker movie CAN take place in the DCEU continuity, without needing Joaquin to reprise his role in Pattinson's upcoming Batman flick.

    Walling off the realities can also cause them to miss opportunities when something actually succeeds. Fans for example have praised both Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman and Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn (even though most of the rest of Suicide Squad was awful, she seems to have gotten a fair amount of acclaim), so the prospect of one day getting them on screen together is going to be a cashola for WB. Those two films, as well as Birds of Prey and whatever the new Suicide Squad ends up being all take place in the same continuity, so that possibility is always going to be there.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-10-08 at 01:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Todd Phillips is suggesting that Arthur Fleck may have inspired Batman's Joker instead of being the real Clown Prince of Crime himself. For me this is the best of both worlds - the obligatory DC trappings like Thomas Wayne aren't completely pointless this way, but this movie can still stand alone without having to worry about tying Arthur in with Batman and his other rogues. We also don't end up with yet another Joker who is 30 years older than Bruce and directly tied to his family before he even began his crusade (*sideeyes Tim Burton's Batman*). I certainly couldn't picture Joaquin's Joker zipping around town abusing Harley Quinn, releasing laughing gas all over the city, or bashing Jason Todd's head in.
    .
    Im not a fan of this idea.
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    The laugh is spot on, he actively goes by Joker publicly at the end, he fully embraces the chaos in the subway scene when being chased by the cops and seems more in his element there than any other time before, starts getting a flair for the dramatic and high levels of confidence when he goes all out on his way to do the Murr-RAY show, and is getting the devotion and allegiance of a vast amount of people. That's Joker. Some other guy coming along, taking the same gimmick, and running with it? I dont buy it. Plus, I can see him having a Harley Quinn - her attraction to him is already easy to see, he can be mesmerizing, and after his fantasy with the girl in the apartment across the hall, along with his mother's betrayal and her actions to begin with ("don't you have to be funny to do stand-up?"), I could easily see him having a toxic relationship afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Individual films can certainly go alternate universe, but I think running more than one universe as a franchise can cause confusion in non-comic fans. But as stated above, they don't have to - this Joker movie CAN take place in the DCEU continuity, without needing Joaquin to reprise his role in Pattinson's upcoming Batman flick.
    Given the sheer amount of different Batmen in different eras in cinema alone, I doubt it would be that confusing. Or Spider-Men, for that matter, they reboot it twice a decade or so and it's never been confusing so far.

    Which, to be fair, is also why I was wondering why so many people were hostile to the idea of the movie to begin with.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-08 at 02:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Im not a fan of this idea.
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    The laugh is spot on, he actively goes by Joker publicly at the end, he fully embraces the chaos in the subway scene when being chased by the cops and seems more in his element there than any other time before, starts getting a flair for the dramatic and high levels of confidence when he goes all out on his way to do the Murr-RAY show, and is getting the devotion and allegiance of a vast amount of people. That's Joker. Some other guy coming along, taking the same gimmick, and running with it? I dont buy it. Plus, I can see him having a Harley Quinn - her attraction to him is already easy to see, he can be mesmerizing, and after his fantasy with the girl in the apartment across the hall, along with his mother's betrayal and her actions to begin with ("don't you have to be funny to do stand-up?"), I could easily see him having a toxic relationship afterwards.
    Our Joker (Joker Prime?) doesn't care about devotion and allegiance though. He's certainly quite good at accumulating it when he wants to, but it's all a means to an end, and he works just fine alone or manipulating people from the shadows too. As mentioned, I don't get that vibe from Arthur at all, nor do I get much in the way of organized crime (even the very loose version of "organized" the Joker typically uses). But most of all I'm just not seeing the age difference; sure, the comics have always been vague on that front, but 3 decades+ are a bit much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Given the sheer amount of different Batmen in different eras in cinema alone, I doubt it would be that confusing. Or Spider-Men, for that matter, they reboot it twice a decade or so and it's never been confusing so far.

    Which, to be fair, is also why I was wondering why so many people were hostile to the idea of the movie to begin with.
    Batman as a film franchise doesn't really help your point though; none of his movies ran concurrently, or even all that close together. The Tim Burton -> Schumacher era was 4 movies long, each one 3 years apart between installments with nothing in between - no teamups, no spinoffs, no crossovers etc - from 1989-1997, and were only loosely connected to one another at best. This was followed by an almost ten-year gap to the Dark Knight Trilogy. With Batman movies spaced out that much both within and between their respective runs, of course there was no confusion about them being largely (or completely in Nolan's case) unconnected to one another.

    Compare to Marvel - the MCU would have never gotten off the ground if they tried multiple versions of the same character. For example, in the same span of time as the first set of Batman movies, RDJ played Iron Man in more than twice as many films, was assumed to be off in the background somewhere doing stuff for several more, and even when he had nothing to do with the plot, setting details from his movies were sprinkled throughout several others and in multiple spinoff TV shows. Even posthumously he drove the plot of Far From Home. Could you imagine trying to keep all that straight if there were multiple Tony Starks running around with so little space between? It would be utterly impossible, and so it's perfectly reasonable that they didn't try.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Our Joker (Joker Prime?) doesn't care about devotion and allegiance though. He's certainly quite good at accumulating it when he wants to, but it's all a means to an end, and he works just fine alone or manipulating people from the shadows too. As mentioned, I don't get that vibe from Arthur at all, nor do I get much in the way of organized crime (even the very loose version of "organized" the Joker typically uses). But most of all I'm just not seeing the age difference; sure, the comics have always been vague on that front, but 3 decades+ are a bit much.



    Batman as a film franchise doesn't really help your point though; none of his movies ran concurrently, or even all that close together. The Tim Burton -> Schumacher era was 4 movies long, each one 3 years apart between installments with nothing in between - no teamups, no spinoffs, no crossovers etc - from 1989-1997, and were only loosely connected to one another at best. This was followed by an almost ten-year gap to the Dark Knight Trilogy. With Batman movies spaced out that much both within and between their respective runs, of course there was no confusion about them being largely (or completely in Nolan's case) unconnected to one another.

    Compare to Marvel - the MCU would have never gotten off the ground if they tried multiple versions of the same character. For example, in the same span of time as the first set of Batman movies, RDJ played Iron Man in more than twice as many films, was assumed to be off in the background somewhere doing stuff for several more, and even when he had nothing to do with the plot, setting details from his movies were sprinkled throughout several others and in multiple spinoff TV shows. Even posthumously he drove the plot of Far From Home. Could you imagine trying to keep all that straight if there were multiple Tony Starks running around with so little space between? It would be utterly impossible, and so it's perfectly reasonable that they didn't try.
    Is Joker Prime Nicholson Joker? Heath Ledger? Mark Hamill? Whoever did that 80s-glam-metal The Batman Joker?

    Dark Knight Joker actively sought to team up with people. Nicholson Joker was a mob boss and only reached his heights because of that. TAS Joker I could see that argument for, but can we really call him Joker Prime? And then the same sentence again, but with Arkhamverse Joker.

    As for concurrent movies, Sony made a movie specifically about different Spider-Man universes while Spider-Man was continuing the MCU stories. To be fair, the openly acknowledging and playing with different universes shtick helped it a whole lot, but still, its been done as a proof-of-concept.

    ETA: Keeping to different eras (90s for Phoenix Joker and present day for Patterson Batman) would help differentiate as well.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-08 at 08:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Is Joker Prime Nicholson Joker? Heath Ledger? Mark Hamill? Whoever did that 80s-glam-metal The Batman Joker?
    Joker's defining characteristic is being Batman's archnemesis. Until Arthur gets that mantle (which I'm willing to bet a sizeable sum he never will), I consider all of the ones you listed to be more "prime" than he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    As for concurrent movies, Sony made a movie specifically about different Spider-Man universes while Spider-Man was continuing the MCU stories. To be fair, the openly acknowledging and playing with different universes shtick helped it a whole lot, but still, its been done as a proof-of-concept.
    As you noted, that movie not only hung a very open lampshade on the multiverse concept as a whole, it focused on Miles, a completely different person wearing the Spiderman mantle. There's no room for confusion there I'd say.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Joker's defining characteristic is being Batman's archnemesis.
    That's a bold claim. I would argue that his defining characteristic is his embodiment of chaos, since that's what makes him Batmans archnemesis. And Arthur got there.
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    Confessing on live TV, murdering MurRAY (seriously loved how he said that), tossing his gun aside and acting like he'd just ordered a pizza afterwards, dancing on the squad car, he was Joker. Sure, there was no Batman, but you could say the same thing in other movies as well; Joker was killing, leaving his card, and infiltrating organisations (Detective J. Kerr was listed as the officer on the evidence bag) in Nolan verse before Batman even knew he existed, and likely before Batman went public, depending on how you interpret Gordon's line at the end. Tim "anyone who knows me knows I would never read a comic book" Burton's Joker killed Bruce's parents (and I hate that just as much as you do, it seems). It's not uncommon at all for the Joker to rise as a fully formed character independent of Batman, only to become his nemesis later.


    I ain't takin' that bet, though.
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    It's a claim I feel pretty comfortable with. It's at the beginning, often in the first few sentences, in nearly every wiki or article about the guy after all. Every one of them that isn't specifically talking about Arthur Fleck anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's a claim I feel pretty comfortable with. It's at the beginning, often in the first few sentences, in nearly every wiki or article about the guy after all. Every one of them that isn't specifically talking about Arthur Fleck anyway.
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    By that logic, his name is even more defining, and Arthur actively went by Joker in the movie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    By that logic, his name is even more defining, and Arthur actively went by Joker in the movie.
    Ha! But that would be why I said the character, not the name. After all, names can be misleading

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Ha! But that would be why I said the character, not the name. After all, names can be misleading
    Fair point. Though when a clown starts murdering people in Gotham City, I'm going to start to think I'm a duck.

    Or something like that.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-08 at 09:23 PM.
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    Just saw it, great movie. Not the Joker, or even my Joker, but that's fine. It's essentially just a movie about the growing economic and social gap in society, mixed in a bit with mistreatment of the disabled. Then shamelessly stealing the imagery of the Joker to sell tickets and creates the movies own unique and interesting visuals. And it did that really well. Though I would say the impetus of the action felt unrealistic to me.

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    Man, I live in Chicago. Three people getting shot isn't going to start a revolution, that's only going to be front page news on a slow news day. And I know that statement basically plays into narrative and themes of the movie, but still. There are also some finicky details, like, even in the 80s a coding patient would elicit some response from hospital staff. And Murray and everyone else not calling for security after his guest admitted to murder right in front of him seemed so strange.

    Beyond that, great movie. I actually really enjoy how much the Arthur doesn't seem to really care about the revolution he accidentally started. He's just happy people are noticing him just being himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    Three people getting shot isn't going to start a revolution, that's only going to be front page news on a slow news day. And I know that statement basically plays into narrative and themes of the movie, but still.
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    It wasn't just three people getting shot, though, was it? It was three rich people who were given coverage and attention and people gave a damn about, unlike all the other murders that happen. Just like Thomas Wayne going on the TV and calling out people for not being rich. Gotham at that point was shown to be a powder keg, and while the killings didn't light it (the cops gun going off in the subway did), it certainly doused the powder keg in gasoline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    It wasn't just three people getting shot, though, was it? It was three rich people who were given coverage and attention and people gave a damn about, unlike all the other murders that happen. Just like Thomas Wayne going on the TV and calling out people for not being rich. Gotham at that point was shown to be a powder keg, and while the killings didn't light it (the cops gun going off in the subway did), it certainly doused the powder keg in gasoline.
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    Yeah, 3 upper-middle to upper class guys got murdered. Again, that's not really all that impressive. At least here in Chicago. It takes some pretty warped viewing to see three pretty much nobodies getting killed and suddenly having that turn into a big event. Especially since the three guys wrongdoings weren't reported and do not seem grandiose enough to become widespread among the populace. So, it just looks like 3 innocents got killed and suddenly everyone starts praising how cool that is. Which, honestly, just portrays poor people as really petty kinda gross.

    Like seeking vengeance because some of their own got unfairly killed. That I get. I've seen enough walks for people getting killed by the cops before to know how tense those situations get. And if the situation was framed more like that, I can see some riots happening. But rich young adults? Maybe if there was some other step. Like, the wealthy using their murder as an excuse to crack down on the poor further. That would make an adequate tipping point. But I really don't see your usual citizen hearing about a triple homicide and going "Cool, let's do more of that and start dressing up as the killer."

    But again, this is nitpickery. It's a great movie.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2019-10-09 at 02:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    What, in your opinion, is the difference?
    ...

    ...

    ...

    PRESENTATION!

    (you asked for it)

    Just saw it, and:
    The acting was really strong. Joaquin Phoenix plays the hell out of a man dancing on the line of sanity and eventually taking any refuge he can in justifying himself. The writing for everyone works. The plot...is kinda weak.
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    The movie portrays the start and end very well, but doesn't play the transition as well as it should have. The reveal of the delusion is too clear, when (I think) ambiguity would better serve the movie by tying the viewer to Arthur's not knowing - and later, not caring - about what is real. The murder (of the coworker) felt like a severe escalation not really justified by the plot so far.

    On the other hand, now that I think about it, the entire scene with the coworkers feels like it is indicated as a delusion. It is clearly wish-fulfillment in that it gives him the ability to choose who deserves to live, it doesn't affect the rest of the film, and the effects it should have had - messing up his makeup just before he went out - are entirely lacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    It wasn't just three people getting shot, though, was it? It was three rich people who were given coverage and attention and people gave a damn about, unlike all the other murders that happen. Just like Thomas Wayne going on the TV and calling out people for not being rich. Gotham at that point was shown to be a powder keg, and while the killings didn't light it (the cops gun going off in the subway did), it certainly doused the powder keg in gasoline.
    Just saw the movie and I loved it.

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    The three guys were, I am pretty sure, a reference to the New York 1984 Subway Shooting. In that one a middle class man revenge shot youths who had accosted him before, here the Joker gets a gun after getting beaten and then shoots the middle class guys.

    A lot of things in the movie were references to 1980s New York, like the 1981 Sanitation Strike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    Yeah, 3 upper-middle to upper class guys got murdered. Again, that's not really all that impressive. At least here in Chicago. It takes some pretty warped viewing to see three pretty much nobodies getting killed and suddenly having that turn into a big event. Especially since the three guys wrongdoings weren't reported and do not seem grandiose enough to become widespread among the populace. So, it just looks like 3 innocents got killed and suddenly everyone starts praising how cool that is. Which, honestly, just portrays poor people as really petty kinda gross.

    Like seeking vengeance because some of their own got unfairly killed. That I get. I've seen enough walks for people getting killed by the cops before to know how tense those situations get. And if the situation was framed more like that, I can see some riots happening. But rich young adults? Maybe if there was some other step. Like, the wealthy using their murder as an excuse to crack down on the poor further. That would make an adequate tipping point. But I really don't see your usual citizen hearing about a triple homicide and going "Cool, let's do more of that and start dressing up as the killer."

    But again, this is nitpickery. It's a great movie.
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    A good bit of the movie beforehand is presenting Gotham as on the cusp of a class war to begin with. Arthur's murder wasn't a turning point in itself, it was just one more push when they're already just a few feet away from the edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by uncool View Post
    PRESENTATION!
    Now gonna lie, I laughed.
    Quote Originally Posted by uncool View Post
    Just saw it, and:
    The acting was really strong. Joaquin Phoenix plays the hell out of a man dancing on the line of sanity and eventually taking any refuge he can in justifying himself. The writing for everyone works. The plot...is kinda weak.
    Well, it is a character study, and those always have more slow burns with less plot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Just saw the movie and I loved it.

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    The three guys were, I am pretty sure, a reference to the New York 1984 Subway Shooting. In that one a middle class man revenge shot youths who had accosted him before, here the Joker gets a gun after getting beaten and then shoots the middle class guys.

    A lot of things in the movie were references to 1980s New York, like the 1981 Sanitation Strike.
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    Oh, I'm like 99% sure it was. Or, if not, then based on the Law & Order episode with Miranda.
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