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Thread: Joker (2019)

  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Lol, Saying that isn't believable is like saying, The ... uh.. City of Angels riots of a certain time, isn't believable because of one incident.

    Sure, if it was just that ONE incident.. sure it isn't that impressive. It's the whole context of that time period in the movie. There is a lot of civil unrest going on. It doesn't take much to light a powderkeg like that.

    I mean if you weren't able to pick up on all the frustration and animosity in the backround. I don't know what to tell you.


    I am still on the fence on this movie. It's in between a 3 or 4. I mean it seems very played out. I mean the whole.. unreliable narrator thing. I mean if you watch a beautiful mind, Inception or other types of movie like that. You can see and guess all the "twists" coming up. So I want to give it a 3. Yet, the movie is made really well, I mean it drags on a little in the middle, cause you keep wanting "Joker" to show up...But when it happens, MAN.. It makes this movie a 4... kind of.

    I think, despite giving him an origin story, this is the best joker so far.
    I mean I like all the other Jokers, for what they are, yet none of them seem to encapsulate him the best.
    Nicolson's Joker, was to sane.
    Leto's Joker, was just to desperate to be cool.

    I never did like all the fame Heath Ledger got for being the Joker. I didn't really get that till now. When someone in the thread said his defining characteristic as being a Shadow of Batman. It just hit me, that is the reason I didn't like Heath's Joker. It wasn't his Joker per se. He did a good job, almost the best. I guess it was the direction of him. Joker's defining characteristic isn't that he is Batman's shadow, it's that he is an Agent of Chaos. I think that's one of the main reasons I don't like Joker so much anymore. He revolves to much around Batman.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    Lol, Saying that isn't believable is like saying, The ... uh.. City of Angels riots of a certain time, isn't believable because of one incident.

    Sure, if it was just that ONE incident.. sure it isn't that impressive. It's the whole context of that time period in the movie. There is a lot of civil unrest going on. It doesn't take much to light a powderkeg like that.

    I mean if you weren't able to pick up on all the frustration and animosity in the backround. I don't know what to tell you.
    If the riots you are referring to are the ones I'm thinking of (Watts Riots) they followed the pattern I laid out much closer than the one in the movie. An individual of the lower oppressed class/race was considered to have been wronged, violently. The lower oppressed class then retaliated. That's about as much detail as I trust myself giving without the mods swooping in.

    The impetus was not some guy randomly murdering the upper class. That puts them as the wronged martyred side, which should swing public opinion to the wealthy.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    The error of your thinking, is that these things make sense logically.

    They don't. This is more like the uprisings that took place all the time. From a monarchy saying let them eat pastries, to the precedents of the Anastasia movie. ... I mean there are a lot more things like this going on.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    The error of your thinking, is that these things make sense logically.

    They don't. This is more like the uprisings that took place all the time. From a monarchy saying let them eat pastries, to the precedents of the Anastasia movie. ... I mean there are a lot more things like this going on.
    Let's break these down then. The monarchy stating "let them eat cake" was most certainly not the impetus for the French Revolution. The storming of the Bastille happened after Necker was dismissed and the Royal army was consolidating in Versailles which was seen as an attempt by conservative powers to block reforms. Again, the revolutionists pitched the revolt in terms of how the direct harm was done to their cause by those in power. The Russian Revolution got started when the Tsars sent the army to violently quell workers strikes. I don't know much about an Anastasia movie, except the cartoon with the talking bat and the zombie Rasputin, which I hope is not the one you're using as an example. That movie isn't really meant to be taken seriously.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    While the protests are a bit out of nowhere, I do have an interpretation for it: there's plenty of room for inciting incidents, they're just out-of-focus, because Arthur doesn't care. Something might have happened, but Arthur doesn't know about it, because the protests are not about him, and don't affect him - until they do.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    This Joker film presented a very original view of the Batman world. The chaotic situation of Gotham City, the death of Bruce Wayne's parents, it was all caused directly or indirectly by the Joker. In this Gotham where the rich are such pricks and there's so much misery, what type of Batman would Bruce Wayne become? It's a very gray world, one in which it's not totally clear who is doing evil and who's not. How would that Batman play off against this Joker, who is a mass murderer but also deep down a clearly damaged person* that just needs, or needed, some help? Would this Batman be out for revenge, or would he set out to help Gotham? Would he be the champion of the Gotham aristocracy against the masses, would he fight for the people?
    *Even if it's not tattooed on his forehead.
    This would be an extremely interesting take on it, I think. All of the best bad guys of Batman's Rogues' gallery are aspects of himself, taken to extreme and warped to evil. Aristocrat (Penguin), Genius (Riddler), Double Life (Two-Face), Attraction to the Dark (Catwoman), Good Intentions (Poison Ivy). If they play up this current Joker's angle, it would be a struggle against his own damage; maybe even more explicitly than in something like Killing Joke. I'd be very interested in seeing that.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    I've been working on a book called Riots to Revolutions for a good chunk of my life.

    Misery doesn't cause riots, it is a decrease in living conditions compated to expected ones. If conditions improve consistently and then stop, that can spark riots and rebellions despite life not actually getting worse.

    You can be very well off and lose very little and have it touch off a riot, but you need a catalyst event. In the movie's case the trash pile up and collapsing social services set the conditions, the Joker helped set off the riot by not getting caught. That showed that the government was weak, and then the cops shot a protester.

    If the Joker had been arrested quickly the fear of government reprisal would have been higher, and by offering concessions they might have prevented the violence.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-10-09 at 01:41 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    That is actually fascinating and I kind of want to read it should it ever get printed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    That is actually fascinating and I kind of want to read it should it ever get printed.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Went to see it today, and as promised here's my comparison to the other movies on Magic_Hat's list (that I've actually seen).

    It's not as good as Endgame, as expected. I stated my reasons in the earlier post, so I won't restate them here.

    It is, however, better than Captain Marvel and Far From Home. Both are middling MCU movies which makes them a good watch, while this was incredible. Joaquin Phoenix carries the movie to be sure, but I was worried that this would mean that he was the only good thing in it. That is not true at all. The setting of 1980s New York Gotham is perfect. The tone is perfect. The comedy through lack of comedy was perfect.

    Most of the additional stuff I'd have to say has also already been said, so I'll just address three things.

    1) "Not my Joker". I don't agree with this as a stance. When it comes to Batman or Superman or Bond or [insert other character here], I get it. I feel the same. For the Joker, it's different. I have now been exposed to four different Jokers - Nicholson, Ledger, Phoenix, and Hamill (circa Arkham Asylum, I still need to rectify my lack of TAS).

    All of them feel totally different, and all of them feel authentic. If pushed, I'd say Nicholson is my least favorite. But they're all great. A character like the Joker is such a chaotic soul that all the portrayals work. This is just another great portrayal looking at the character from another direction.

    2) My father came with me and knows almost nothing about comic books. He knows Batman from the old Adam West show, and from there he knows Bruce Wayne. That's it. He still loved the movie every bit as much as I did. This is a comic book movie that breaks the boundaries defining what such a movie can be, and it's awesome because of it. There's stories in these universes that go beyond superpowered people punching each other in the face, and I hope this movie is successful enough to show that.

    3) "Giving the Joker a set origin story is bad". I agree. However...I don't think this movie gave him a set origin story. Reasons in spoilers:

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    The incidents with his "girlfriend" and his supposed first appearance with Murray Franklin show that he is an unreliable narrator to begin with. The movie itself also toys with the idea of multiple origin stories. He's Arthur Fleck, son of a struggling woman who used to work for Wayne Industries who has now fallen on hard times. No, he's the love child of Thomas Wayne and Penny Fleck. No, he's adopted. Who were his real parents? We don't know. The whole thing is kept vague enough for the real story to be murky.

    And then there's the ending, where he's talking to his therapist in a psych ward. By all appearances, the same psych ward we see a brief shot of him in earlier in the movie. We go straight there from him standing on the car...so was this an idle fantasy? Was it just another origin story concocted by the sick mind of the Joker? Or was he reflecting upon real events? It's impossible to say.

    My personal headcanon here is that it's all a lie he told himself. None of the events happened, or if they did they were greatly distorted. Arthur wants to believe that he is not Arthur. He is The Joker, the illegitimate son of Thomas Wayne who caused a Revolution with his actions and resulted in Wayne getting killed and the social order overthrown. In reality, he's just another crazy person in the nuthouse.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    So, given that he is the reason for Bruce's parents death. Do you think that, that would fundamentally change Batman's outlook? I mean originally, it was a random guy in a random crime, that set Batman off. With this though, what do you think?

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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    There are some very insightful posts in this thread, particular those about Batmans villains being reflections of himself or wondering why anyone would ever follow the Joker. Kudos!


    As for the movie itself, its ok. The first act is so awkward that it is uncomfortable to watch, and the second half mixes gore and comedy so well that there were times when I felt really self conscious for laughing in the theatre, impressive if that is what they were going for.

    Zazie Beats was wasted, which was a shame.


    Overall, decent movie, but it thought it had a lot more to say than it did and took itself far too seriously for what it was. If only there was some pithy quote about being serious that I could use to some it up... but I can't think of any.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    So, given that he is the reason for Bruce's parents death. Do you think that, that would fundamentally change Batman's outlook? I mean originally, it was a random guy in a random crime, that set Batman off. With this though, what do you think?
    I mean, in the comics, Joe Chill was only "random" in the sense that he had no way of knowing exactly which rich rube would be leaving the opera that day. Though I believe in a later version it wasn't random at all, and he was a hitman? Anyway, either way Batman's motivation would still be geared at fighting Gotham's crime in a more general sense, and opposing the root causes/societal conditions that led to it. (Though not enough to, you know, employ his vast wealth in a way that actually meaningfully betters Gotham beyond breaking henchman limbs in alleys, but that's a rant for another day.)

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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    I'm not that familiar with the superhero franchise, having only watched Dark Knight and several other movies, but I've got to say I enjoyed this movie a lot. The reason being... this isn't really a superhero movie in the first place, and I loved that approach.

    If it were a superhero movie, even if it were a spin-off featuring no superheroes, there would be a "Villain". I don't think the Joker in this movie is a "Villain". If he were a "Villain", his ultimate destiny would be to be defeated by the hero - but no, it's impossible for a superhero to defeat the Joker, because no amount of punching or kicking will ever put out the fire, only make it worse. Even if Arthur Fleck is arrested, even if he someday dies, the Joker will live on. Everyone in that climax scene is part of the Joker. The whole city is Joker in itself.

    This film states it depicts how the Joker is born, but I don't interpret that as "Arthur Fleck becoming a new someone called Joker". I interpreted that as the day the society realized that there is already an uncontrollable, hideous tumor within itself, and Joker is the name of that entire symptom. Arthur is only a vector, someone who just happened to be there in that particular corner, and was infected - which led him to spread the word, and the virus.

    Or alternatively, on an even worse thought, maybe the society still has not realized its fatal disease. The Joker is already born; itís just that people havenít noticed.

    Much like many others, I also enjoyed speculating where in the movie is the truth and where is but a hallucination, and there is always the possibility that everything that happened in the later half of the scene is a delusion. De Niro is still alive. The city still isnít on fire, and Bruce Wayneís parents died from another cause. Maybe even Arthurís former colleague is living a normal life. That would be much for the betterÖ or would it really be?

    The thought that there may be Ė and probably is - a great number of people daydreaming about the destruction of the current society, yet being forever unnoticed and waiting for the day of eruption, is both absolutely terrifying and extremely believable. Nobody knows what might be the trigger. Even if everything Arthur saw was a delusion, itís a future that Gotham City is bound to end up in, because thereís no way all the dark emotions and the grudges in the city will someday come to an abrupt halt. There will someday come a day when the hallucinations of a madman and the reality of the world end up in the same exact picture, and in that sense, it doesnít really matter whether the ending is fact or fiction. It someday will end up to be a fact.

    If there is only one thing that can defeat the Joker in this movie, it is NOT a guy wearing badass black gear and riding a cutting-edge customized automobile that costs millions of dollars. Itís some good counseling, several laws that ought to lend the weak people some help, and learning to actually care about the people around you.

    That is definitely not a superhero movie. And I loved it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    1) "Not my Joker". I don't agree with this as a stance. When it comes to Batman or Superman or Bond or [insert other character here], I get it. I feel the same. For the Joker, it's different. I have now been exposed to four different Jokers - Nicholson, Ledger, Phoenix, and Hamill (circa Arkham Asylum, I still need to rectify my lack of TAS).
    No Romero Joker? That's a cultural void almost on par with missing out on TAS Joker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    No Romero Joker? That's a cultural void almost on par with missing out on TAS Joker.
    Watching that series again, it's more than a little annoying how many of the villains dip into Riddler territory and openly give Batman hints as to their crimes for no discernible reason.
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  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Watching that series again, it's more than a little annoying how many of the villains dip into Riddler territory and openly give Batman hints as to their crimes for no discernible reason.
    It was for kids. The villains and hero keep repeating what is going on so the kids can keep up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    It was for kids. The villains and hero keep repeating what is going on so the kids can keep up.
    No, that I totally understand. I mean when the Joker gets on TV and says, "Here is a hint to my crime!" That's Riddler's schtick. May as well have the Penguin dress up like a clown.
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    No, that I totally understand. I mean when the Joker gets on TV and says, "Here is a hint to my crime!" That's Riddler's schtick. May as well have the Penguin dress up like a clown.
    Admittedly, the Riddler in that show got turned into a joke spouting, mad laughing trickster fool. If he can steal Joker's shtick why can't Joker steal his?

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    No, that I totally understand. I mean when the Joker gets on TV and says, "Here is a hint to my crime!" That's Riddler's schtick. May as well have the Penguin dress up like a clown.
    Yeah, I can see that being irritating. They also left out the scarier villains entirely.

    Fun fact: My Mom is scared of clowns, and would leave the room when we watched Batman to avoid Hamil or Romero.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-10-10 at 12:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Admittedly, the Riddler in that show got turned into a joke spouting, mad laughing trickster fool. If he can steal Joker's shtick why can't Joker steal his?
    Yeah, that's a fair point. I think the writers just didn't realize they were supposed to be different characters maybe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yeah, that's a fair point. I think the writers just didn't realize they were supposed to be different characters maybe?
    My understanding is that it's more what time in the Bat mythos they were trying to put on film. During the era of the CCA the Riddler did basically take on a more generic funtime villainy, at the same time the Joker's real lunacy was toned down to the point they were pretty similar. It isn't until Joker's Five Way Revenge that the Joker went back to being the completely psychopath again. While Riddler sort of languished in the kiddie version of the character for a bit longer. A few attempts to make him more adult tried to make the need to drop riddles caused by some psychosis, which in its own way made him still too similar to the Joker's brand of crazy. It isn't until BTAS which decided to really enforce the differences between Ridller and Joker that we got the cold calculating genius Riddler, which thankfully we kept today. As a general rule, we should all try to keep a hold of the interpretations of these characters made during BTAS.

    Right Mr Freeze? What did you learn about turning your backstory to being a carbon copy of Mad Hatters? No one liked it did they? No. Don't do that again.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2019-10-10 at 01:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    TAS really was a turning point, in just how much of the best parts of Batman came from that show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    TAS really was a turning point, in just how much of the best parts of Batman came from that show.
    It is IMO the best animated kids show ever made. My nephew watches a show about bipedal goldfish and I keep wondering why he prefers that to Batman or Justice League.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-10-10 at 01:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    It is IMO the best animated kids show ever made. My nephew watches a show about bipedal goldfish and I keep wondering why he prefers that to Batman or Justice League.
    Plus it gave rise to the animated Batman Beyond, which also phenomenal for the most part.

    The bipedal goldfish is going right over my head. I'm assuming that's a good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Plus it gave rise to the animated Batman Beyond, which also phenomenal for the most part.

    The bipedal goldfish is going right over my head. I'm assuming that's a good thing.
    Batman Beyond needs a movie. Keaton as Bruce, all the other Batmen as the old robins.

    I don't know the name, but all the people have animal heads and the main characters are a cat and a goldfish. They jump between real world backgrounds and drawn, it is very surreal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Batman Beyond needs a movie. Keaton as Bruce, all the other Batmen as the old robins.

    I don't know the name, but all the people have animal heads and the main characters are a cat and a goldfish. They jump between real world backgrounds and drawn, it is very surreal.
    Honestly, of all the Batmens, I can't really see one doing BB Bruce. If Clint Eastwood had current-Arnold's body, that would be BB Bruce to a T.
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  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Brother Oni's Avatar

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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    TAS really was a turning point, in just how much of the best parts of Batman came from that show.
    Wasn't Harley Quinn especially created for TAS and now she's pretty much become an integral part of the Joker's entourage when he has one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Batman Beyond needs a movie. Keaton as Bruce, all the other Batmen as the old robins.
    Do you mean a live action movie? There's a couple animated ones - Return of the Joker is the one I've seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I don't know the name, but all the people have animal heads and the main characters are a cat and a goldfish. They jump between real world backgrounds and drawn, it is very surreal.
    You mean The Amazing World of Gumball? It's actually a very good show, with plenty of pop culture references to keep the older viewers entertained - the episode 'The Remote' is essentially a kid friendly version of The Usual Suspects.

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post

    The whole thing is even funnier when you know that villain means peasant, so Lex Luthor the billionaire is super poor.
    That's certainly the root of the word, someone who is tied to a villa, but it hasn't meant that in...hundreds if not more...years. It shifted in term however to mean someone who was less than knightly, which meant thieving and rape and all that nasty stuff. It's easy to see how the term evolved with that.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: Joker (2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Wasn't Harley Quinn especially created for TAS and now she's pretty much become an integral part of the Joker's entourage when he has one?



    Do you mean a live action movie? There's a couple animated ones - Return of the Joker is the one I've seen.



    You mean The Amazing World of Gumball? It's actually a very good show, with plenty of pop culture references to keep the older viewers entertained - the episode 'The Remote' is essentially a kid friendly version of The Usual Suspects.
    Yes. She was invented for the show, and both Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze were so altered by it they are functionally new characters.

    Yeah, a live action one. We have lots of old batmen to fill in the old people rolls. At this point we have stuck Batman in a kind of timeless past though, so the whole "shouldn't Batman be 100?" isn't as pressing as in the 80s and 90s.

    That is the show. I don't doubt it is good, an improvement over Total Drama Island and its spinoffs that he watched before. Given the choice between cartoons that have punching and those that don't, I would have chosen punching pretty much all through my childhood so it seems odd to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    That's certainly the root of the word, someone who is tied to a villa, but it hasn't meant that in...hundreds if not more...years. It shifted in term however to mean someone who was less than knightly, which meant thieving and rape and all that nasty stuff. It's easy to see how the term evolved with that.
    I would argue that villains in superhero stories still fulfill a lot of the same rolls though. They are fighting the status quo and attempting to seize power, superheroes defend it (often protecting really awful blue bloods.) The Long Halloween is about the collapse of the blue blood mafia against villains, and the delineation between them is the mafia has all the trappings of aristocracy and the villains are crazed, poor and grasping.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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