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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default What's the deal with Celia?

    I just...really don't quite understand the portrayal of Celia during the whole deal with Roy's corpse? Are we supposed to hate her? Cause she acts in a similar way to characters like Miko narrative wise, constantly getting the party in trouble but refusing to take any accountability and constantly preaching her morals to everyone else. But at the same time I don't think we're supposed to hate her cause she has a romance going on with a main character, and unlike Roy's infactuation with Miko, it's shown to be an actual good and healthy relationship.

    Are we supposed to question the morality of our heroes and think she has a point? Cause that comes with it's own set of issues, considering her arguments don't really make sense. She barates Haley for stealing from people who worked hard to get their gold, but that was actually never shown in the comic, and Haley's fortune is shown to come from looting monsters, and aside from some gags early in the comics she never shown any disposition for stealing from people that actually worked hard for their gold. And she barely addresses that the only reason Haley had to kill all those thiefs in the first place was due to her refusal to follow orders from a person who was much more capable than her when it came to adventuring.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post

    Are we supposed to question the morality of our heroes and think she has a point?
    That's the impression I get from the commentary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    the only reason Haley had to kill all those thiefs in the first place was due to her refusal to follow orders from a person who was much more capable than her when it came to adventuring.
    As V said of Miko - "She is not a member of the party, she does not get to bark orders at me."

    Celia could say "I am not a member of your party - you don't give me orders."
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-09-03 at 09:13 AM.
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Thing is tha in Miko's case, they already had a leader, and even though they were portrayed as bumbling they were not incompetent. Celia displayed a severe lack of understanding on how pretty much anything works, and trusted pretty much anyone that wasn't her teammates.
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-03 at 09:27 AM.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Celia, to my mind, was the example of what happens when you put an "ordinary person" (at least, as ordinary as a paralegal sylph can be) into an adventurer's shoes. Her horrified reactions to stuff Haley etc. found perfectly normal was meant to show how far outside a normal life an adventurer leads. Miko, on the other hand, was thoroughly familiar with an adventurer's role because she spent most of her life doing pretty much the same thing, so her horror at what the others was doing was at best sanctimonious and at worst hypocritical.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Isn't that a bit redundant considering Julia's ordeal with the linear guild?

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Isn't that a bit redundant considering Julia's ordeal with the linear guild?
    Eh, Julia is 90% adventurer material. And as Roy explained to Celia, any mortal person on the material plane can always sleep easy knowing there's an afterlife. Celia comes as an outsider in a way that the rules are completely different for her and people like her. An Outsider with different senses, not an adventurer, can't resurrect.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Isn't that a bit redundant considering Julia's ordeal with the linear guild?
    Julia is a low level mage who is in school, but is well aware of the life of the adventurer and how she is probably going to do that in a few years.

    Celia is a person who has some inherent magic stuff, but otherwise is very close to someone from our world transplanted into OotSverse: she has permadeath in effect, she doesn't want to kill things, she focuses on her job, family/relationships and schooling moreso than smithing or raiding the countryside, and she really doesn't understand how things work from a "what do I do" standpoint.
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Julia is a low level mage who is in school, but is well aware of the life of the adventurer and how she is probably going to do that in a few years.

    Celia is a person who has some inherent magic stuff, but otherwise is very close to someone from our world transplanted into OotSverse: she has permadeath in effect, she doesn't want to kill things, she focuses on her job, family/relationships and schooling moreso than smithing or raiding the countryside, and she really doesn't understand how things work from a "what do I do" standpoint.
    Yep. A heavy part of her character centers around the fact that, like us, she's sued to a world where death is permanent, rather then something you fix in any given major city, provided you find the right Cleric and have the cash.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    This post is vaguely relevant.
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I didn't hate Celia during DStP, and it surprises me that people have so strong opinions on her. Yeah she made some goofs, well, welcome to the Party, like if the members of the Order had never screwed up.

    Besides, part of the point of her portrayal was to show that Haley can't lead, so she being a nuisance to Haley was something that needed to be done.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    This post is vaguely relevant.
    Wow! After reading that post I feel like I have to comment.

    For my two cents, I've never had an issue with Celia. She was an interesting perspective to have during Haley's stint as leader. How exactly would someone who is not an adventurer act when she's forced to travel with adventurers to save someone she loves?

    I'm not a fan of Miko. But that's fine. It's hard for a story to develop if it doesn't have antagonists. And Miko served that role very well.
    Last edited by xroads; 2019-09-04 at 03:31 PM. Reason: Fixed grammar

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I think we're supposed to find her annoying, and kind of an idiot, but not too much of one. Like, she's someone who is fine in their own environment and workplace but bringing that attitude to your workplace just makes it hard to get things done while being annoying in her attempts to give 'helpful' advice.

    Mind you, she did manage to get Haley to stop moping around Azure City, and correctly pointed out that Belkar is a complete monster. She made some really, really stupid decisions regarding Greysky City. Just on, like, every level. On the other hand, that is partly Haley's fault for not, you know, actually explaining why going there was such a bad idea. I mean, what's so hard about saying, 'the city is run by evil criminals who want me dead. If we go there, we will at best end up in a fight for our lives.'

    But then again, part of that arc was to show that Haley is actually a bad leader and how things fell apart without Roy around.
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    With Miko it seems to me that people didn't really figure out nuance? Like, they were either saying she was a saint that did nothing wrong or claiming she was an absolute monster and had no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    The deal with Celia is that she is an air elemental, currently in law school and in a relationship with Roy Greenhilt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    constantly getting the party in trouble but refusing to take any accountability and constantly preaching her morals to everyone else.
    But to take your post seriously, I have had similar feeling about Celia. Specifically, that she knows she's not an adventurer and not cut out for this life, but still thinks she knows better than Haley; that she preaches pacifism but still wants people to do violence on her behalf; and that she was derelict in her duties in representing Haley's interests in negotiating with the Thieves' Guild.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    The deal with Celia is that she is an air elemental, currently in law school and in a relationship with Roy Greenhilt.



    But to take your post seriously, I have had similar feeling about Celia. Specifically, that she knows she's not an adventurer and not cut out for this life, but still thinks she knows better than Haley; that she preaches pacifism but still wants people to do violence on her behalf; and that she was derelict in her duties in representing Haley's interests in negotiating with the Thieves' Guild.
    I'll admit: Maybe this is the Lawful part of me talking, but I kinda fail to have sympathy for Haley being angry one of her party members strole from her, given, ya know...Her being her. and I think at least some portion of her complaints were fairly reasonable: The fact that the Order puts up with an actual serial killer is an issue. I'm on Haley's side of that issue, but only because, you know, he's pretty much the only ally she has left. While i'll acknowledge the naivete was kinda irritating, and the hypicsorcy...Well, if I was gonna have a problem with that, it'd be when she started dating someone whose literal title is "Fighter". She's pretty clearly of the "I won't use violence personally, but I can't control other people" school, which...Yeah, that is a flaw, but, we all have them. Plus, the Greysky City thing was her only real majorly-bad decision, and...Well, that's partly on Haley for being so damn cryptic about WHY they shouldn't go there. Understandable, given her past, but "there are people there who want me, specifically, dead" would probably have worked. Again, we all have our flaws: One of the points of the ar is that, without Roy around, none of the Order are really suited for leadership, Haley included.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-09-05 at 01:35 AM.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I just...really don't quite understand the portrayal of Celia during the whole deal with Roy's corpse? Are we supposed to hate her?
    No. Celia represents the "normla person view". The one where automatically murderhoboing other sentient creatures isn't the go to option.

    She doesn't quite know what is going on, and she says as much. We should see it for the insight into ourselves she provides. A OOTS person and a D&D player have a rather skewed viewpoint of the world. Sure it works, but it's alien to most people.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I'll admit: Maybe this is the Lawful part of me talking, but I kinda fail to have sympathy for Haley being angry one of her party members strole from her, given, ya know...Her being her. and I think at least some portion of her complaints were fairly reasonable: The fact that the Order puts up with an actual serial killer is an issue. I'm on Haley's side of that issue, but only because, you know, he's pretty much the only ally she has left. While i'll acknowledge the naivete was kinda irritating, and the hypicsorcy...Well, if I was gonna have a problem with that, it'd be when she started dating someone whose literal title is "Fighter". She's pretty clearly of the "I won't use violence personally, but I can't control other people" school, which...Yeah, that is a flaw, but, we all have them. Plus, the Greysky City thing was her only real majorly-bad decision, and...Well, that's partly on Haley for being so damn cryptic about WHY they shouldn't go there. Understandable, given her past, but "there are people there who want me, specifically, dead" would probably have worked. Again, we all have our flaws: One of the points of the ar is that, without Roy around, none of the Order are really suited for leadership, Haley included.
    And this largely how the Giant describes Celia vs Haley in the book commentary. Haley hasn't gotten through her issues yet. She is on the right path, but at the beginning of that. Not telling people anything more than strictly necessary at a time is not always a good idea. Had Haley come out and stated why they shouldn't go to Greysky Celia would have gone with that. It's the unthrustworthy thief not wanting to solve the Roy problem ASAP that prompts Celia to make a very bad decision. Unlike us though Celia doesn't know much of what goes on. She hasn't been on the mortal planes much, she doesn't understand "the human condition". Had she been briefed on Greysky City she would not have gone there.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    With Miko it seems to me that people didn't really figure out nuance? Like, they were either saying she was a saint that did nothing wrong or claiming she was an absolute monster and had no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
    As Rich has said elsewhere, part of the thing about Miko in retrospect is that we're able to view her from a distance and see her whole arc before forming a lasting opinion. At the time people were living through it, not knowing how Miko's story would end up or even where it was going, over a period of months or years, opinions on her were a lot stronger and a lot more negative than they are now. The same probably goes for Celia.

    I don't think Celia is a particularly well-drawn character in her arc with Haley and Belkar, just because of the infuriating combination of great naivete and refusal to adjust her viewpoint. As a character, she doesn't entirely convince (and getting Grubwiggler involved was just unjustifiably stupid). She seems to exist mostly as a brake on plot resolution by insisting on things being done in a way that's slower, harder, and less likely to lead to a satisfactory outcome, which is frustrating for the characters and frustrating for the reader.

    But maybe that's part of the point too. After all, there's the point made by Roy at some point (and thrown back at him by vampire Durkon) that he refuses to kill someone just because it's a bit easier than talking to them. Celia's presence serves to remind us that Good is about doing things the right way rather than the easy way, and forces Haley, as the decision-maker between Celia on one shoulder and Belkar on the other, to actually make those choices. And yeah, it's annoying, but doing the right thing often is.

    As above, there's perhaps not actually that much difference in outlook and attitude between Celia and Roy and Durkon, who are usually much less annoying on the page. Roy and Durkon are a bit more practical and worldly but I doubt they'd disagree with too many of the things Celia actually said or did (aside from Grubwiggler, obviously). The reason why Celia is annoying where Roy and Durkon aren't is partly because Roy in particular is a main character with much more development time and therefore gets more of the benefit of the doubt from the reader, but also because of the character dynamic. Roy is in a leadership role and a position of authority so he doesn't have to harp on all the time, he can just make the decision, and he has the natural authority that everyone else falls in line. Durkon generally agrees with Roy's viewpoint so doesn't often have to speak up about alignment-based issues. The only major disagreement between the two that I can recall is over Miko.

    Celia on the other hand has to try to convince Haley of everything, so she's constantly in her (and our) ear, and Haley isn't a good enough party leader to shut it down.
    Last edited by Aedilred; 2019-09-05 at 07:10 AM.
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    Celia on the other hand has to try to convince Haley of everything, so she's constantly in her (and our) ear, and Haley isn't a good enough party leader to shut it down.
    I am going to take a different view on Celia (who is written as annoying, to be sure) because I like that she attempted to resolve the conflict via non combat means and did. (But it took Hank being open to the idea in the first place; we do see in the OotPCs that Haley and Hank had a kind of mutual respect, and she
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    had agreed with him not to expose his skimming off the top
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    Why it aggrivates Haley hasn't to do with solving the problem. Why it aggrivates Haley so much is that is harms her treasure hoarding program that she is keeping a secret from everyone .... but Celia has already aggrivated her on a variety of other matters with her not at all subtle "Jimminy Cricket" in your face conscience act.

    Overall, I like Celia even though Rich wrote her as an annoying personality.
    Plus, Roy needs a love interest.
    (With all of the grief and stress Roy has/had up to that point, I really liked that strip for its joyful tone)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-05 at 08:12 AM.
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I think people are a bit unfair in acting like it's totally unreasonable for Celia not to obey whatever Haley wants to do without having the reasons for it. Celia is a grown up and not part of the Order; "because I said so" isn't an argument she has any reason to respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I think people are a bit unfair in acting like it's totally unreasonable for Celia not to obey whatever Haley wants to do without having the reasons for it. Celia is a grown up and not part of the Order; "because I said so" isn't an argument she has any reason to respect.
    When somebody is trying to shoot arrows or various other deadly things at you and its coming from your leader, "because I said so" is absolutely an argument you should respect. To do otherwise is equivalent to telling somebody, to their face, that you think they suck at their job and that you think you could do better. And that attitude is pretty consistent with Celia's other interactions with Haley, and is generally why she gets so much ire, both in comic and out.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    From Celia's perspective, Haley is not "her leader" anyway - she's her temporary associate.
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    From Celia's perspective, Haley is not "her leader" anyway - she's her temporary associate.
    Who she feels comfortable with assigning primary responsibility for getting Roy resurrected, which is what she wants to see happen. Celia cant have it both ways. If she's traveling with an adventuring party, then the adventuring party has authority in all issues pertaining to adventuring. Are you familiar with the adage "An explosives expert at a dead sprint outranks everybody"? Its the same idea here.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    If she's traveling with an adventuring party, then the adventuring party has authority in all issues pertaining to adventuring.


    Celia's not out to adventure though - she's out to get Roy resurrected. From her perspective, Haley had no authority to forbid her from going to Greysky City.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-09-05 at 09:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Celia's not out to adventure though - she's out to get Roy resurrected. From her perspective, Haley had no authority to forbid her from going to Greysky City.
    She delegated that responsibility to Haley. She in fact specifically went out of her way to make sure that Haley was involved and in charge. She didn't end up in that group by chance, it was a conscious and deliberate decision on her part to travel with the group that she did. Even if she somehow started out under the mistaken impression that it would be similar to shopping for a new cloak (which she could be forgiven for), the goblin checkpoint should have disabused her of the notion that they could just pop out for a quick shopping trip with no other complications.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    When somebody is trying to shoot arrows or various other deadly things at you and its coming from your leader, "because I said so" is absolutely an argument you should respect. To do otherwise is equivalent to telling somebody, to their face, that you think they suck at their job and that you think you could do better. And that attitude is pretty consistent with Celia's other interactions with Haley, and is generally why she gets so much ire, both in comic and out.
    The because I said so thing is for going to Greysky City, where because I said so is not at all a valid argument, when you have a quest to do with an adventurer saying that you shouldn’t cause it’s dangerous is a ridiculous thing to expect someone to follow.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    It may be worth to remind that getting out of Azure City to have Roy resurrected, was Celia's initiative in the first place. Haley had been sitting in Azure City's ruins playing Resistance Leader for months with no intenton to leave. Celia was the one that forced her out of her confort zone.

    So, as far as Celia is concerned, it was herself, not Haley, who held Roy's better interests in mind.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-09-05 at 10:13 AM.

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Who she feels comfortable with assigning primary responsibility for getting Roy resurrected, which is what she wants to see happen. Celia cant have it both ways. If she's traveling with an adventuring party, then the adventuring party has authority in all issues pertaining to adventuring. Are you familiar with the adage "An explosives expert at a dead sprint outranks everybody"? Its the same idea here.
    Except that, as was mnetioned obliquely, the expert in this case wasn't sprinting, she was ambling vaguely onwards. And when presented the option of Greysky City, she shot it down with no explanation other than, "It's a bad idea, trust me." Except that trust is one thing that has to be earned and has to be mutual, and at that point neither side had any basis for trust.
    Haley failing to explain any reason why the city was to be avoided, but still expecting to be obeyed, was unreasonable. Going behind your leader's back and following your own path in the absence of convincing reasons is exactly the sort of thing Haley would do, unless she has a leader she trusts- like Roy. Haley tried to imitate Roy's leadership style but without forming the basis of trust with Celia.
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Trust is implicit when you recruit somebody for a task, at least to the point where you trust in their competency. If you invite somebody along for their skills and expertise, you don't ignore them when they say "don't do that".
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Dec 2018

    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    But Haley isn't Celia's leader and Celia has no reason to blindly obey her. Yes, readers know that Haley had a good reason for wanting to avoid Greysky, but Celia didn't because Haley didn't explain anything, she just gave orders and expected her to obey despite her not having a reason to do so. From Celia's perspective, Haley has been sitting around in Azure City for a while not actually doing anything to get Roy resurrected until she came along and got things moving. She doesn't have any reason to take her word on it.

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