The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    Haley, as the decision-maker between Celia on one shoulder and Belkar on the other
    This image is especially clever because it could actually happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by godsflunky View Post
    It'll be a wild ride, and I can't wait to see all the twists and turns, but we'll be fine.

    This is gonna be great.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Trust is implicit when you recruit somebody for a task, at least to the point where you trust in their competency. If you invite somebody along for their skills and expertise, you don't ignore them when they say "don't do that".
    Yes - Celia ignored Haley's advice (which is how the Don't Split The Party commentary put it) - she did not disobey Haley's orders - because Haley's never been Celia's "commander" in the first place.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    But Haley isn't Celia's leader and Celia has no reason to blindly obey her. Yes, readers know that Haley had a good reason for wanting to avoid Greysky, but Celia didn't because Haley didn't explain anything, she just gave orders and expected her to obey despite her not having a reason to do so. From Celia's perspective, Haley has been sitting around in Azure City for a while not actually doing anything to get Roy resurrected until she came along and got things moving. She doesn't have any reason to take her word on it.
    Unless youre trying to suggest that Celia though that Haley was deliberately trying to avoid having Roy resurrected, that's a pretty thin excuse. Furthermore, Haley did explain why she thought going was a bad idea, at least in part. "Its a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." She didn't just say "no, now shut up." Celia was just blatantly choosing to ignore Haley's judgment here.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Unless youre trying to suggest that Celia though that Haley was deliberately trying to avoid having Roy resurrected, that's a pretty thin excuse. Furthermore, Haley did explain why she thought going was a bad idea, at least in part. "Its a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." She didn't just say "no, now shut up." Celia was just blatantly choosing to ignore Haley's judgment here.
    Haley, as far as Celia knew at the time, is the sort of person who kills people for having gold in their pockets.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    Haley, as far as Celia knew at the time, is the sort of person who kills people for having gold in their pockets.
    And given her perceptions of Haley, that should be alarming, not comforting. She considers Haley a friend on a personal level, but she is very much not OK with what she regularly does while adventuring, and makes no secret of it.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    And given her perceptions of Haley, that should be alarming, not comforting. She considers Haley a friend on a personal level, but she is very much not OK with what she regularly does while adventuring, and makes no secret of it.
    Exactly. And that’s why she has no reason to listen to what Haley says.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I think it's pretty clear Haley should have explained the whole "people there want me, specifically, dead". Celia may well have been willing to risk entering a hive of crime to get Roy resurrected, but not if she knew there are people there who would want to kill Haley specifically. I mean, one of the major points of DSTP is that Haley is not a good leader. Both of them screwed up on this one.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Exactly. And that’s why she has no reason to listen to what Haley says.
    Theres no emoji for a completely baffled face, so just imagine I used one here.

    Your argument is that because Haley said that Greysky was full of people that Celia perceived to be like Haley in ways that Celia did not approve of, that Celia should do the opposite of what Haley says?

    And this is supposed to make Celia look more reasonable?

    I legitimately don't understand the point youre trying to make here. No, Celia isn't literally contractually obligated to listen to Haley, but that doesn't mean it isn't smart to do so, and disrespectful to ignore her expertise and the authority derived from it.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    When Celia was invoked into Azure City, her first impression of Haley was than of a supposedly seasoned adventurer who:
    - Couldn't notice she had been under the effect of an abjuration area-effect spell for months.
    - Couldn't get her priorities right as she was fooling around playing Rebel Leader instead of getting Roy resurrected.
    - Couldn't even unify the pitiful Resistance under an unified command. Something that Celia herself proceeded to do.

    So, why should Celia trust Haley in the field of making decisions?

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    And before that, Celia's primary experience of Haley was this:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Theres no emoji for a completely baffled face, so just imagine I used one here.

    Your argument is that because Haley said that Greysky was full of people that Celia perceived to be like Haley in ways that Celia did not approve of, that Celia should do the opposite of what Haley says?

    And this is supposed to make Celia look more reasonable?

    I legitimately don't understand the point youre trying to make here. No, Celia isn't literally contractually obligated to listen to Haley, but that doesn't mean it isn't smart to do so, and disrespectful to ignore her expertise and the authority derived from it.
    To Celia Haley shouldn’t be trusted as a leader because she’s the sort who kills people for having gold in their pockets, therefore her advice shouldn’t be completely trusted, while her reasoning isn’t great it is understandable and makes sense for her character.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    To Celia Haley shouldn’t be trusted as a leader because she’s the sort who kills people for having gold in their pockets, therefore her advice shouldn’t be completely trusted, while her reasoning isn’t great it is understandable and makes sense for her character.
    I disagree. That isn't understandable at all. Or rather, its basic contrarianism, which I can recognize but not understand why anybody would think its a good idea.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Trusting her own judgement over Haley's was, in this particular case, a mistake - but good people can make mistakes.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Well, yeah. Haley is a professional criminal. Not a job that leads to being trusted. Roy doesn't really trust her until the end of DSTP, and he's spent a lot more time with her.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I honestly can't grasp the leap in logic it would take to completely ignore when someone says a place is dangerous and where people get killed, when you're so devoid of experience to have any insight of your own on it. Especially given that Haley is a trusted friend of Roy, and has no reason to have nothing but his best interest in mind.

    Plus her judgemental view on Haley is one based on extreme prejudice, that she keeps all the way through their adventure even when Haley was actively trying to save her

    And also, when you distrust someone, you normally try to be careful and expect tje worst. Not think for some reason Haley would lie about a place being dangerous, especially when you have no evidence that points to otherwise.
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 11:36 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    One of the themes of DStP was how Roy was needed as a Leader, as reinforced by the fact that both Haley and Elan failed to assume the responsibility and allowed the first NPC around to take the important decissions. (Celia in the case of Haley, Hinjo and later Therkla in the case of Elan).

    If we focus on Haley's part, the mind behind all the big decissions was Celia. She was the one who took the decission of moving out of Azure's ruins. She was the one who took the decission of moving into Greysky City. And she was the one who took the decission to broke a deal with Hank and ally with the Thieves. And Haley followed suit in all three instances. Some of those decissions were poor, but Haley never took the steps to assert her leadership or even accept it ("I do not take responsibility for other people's actions. Only for mine, and even that is a recent development").

    So, Celia acting the way she acted? Totally logical. You are out there with a midget psycho murderer and a thief that neglects to assume redponsibility. Someone had to do it, and the only remaining person capable of doing so around Celia was herself. And it was not an unprecedented occurrence as Celia did already took charge when she acted as the lead of the legal defense of the Order at their Trial in Azure City.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-09-05 at 11:47 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    What Celia was probably thinking at the time was

    "Maybe there is danger - but exposing myself to danger in the hope of restoring Roy, is my decision to make".
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Moving into a place the only thing you know about is that someone that has no reason to lie about this particular information said "it's dangerous and will get you killed", in the hopes of finding a high level cleric, is not perfectly logical.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    One of the themes of DStP was how Roy was needed as a Leader, as reinforced by the fact that both Haley and Elan failed to assume the responsibility and allowed the first NPC around to take the important decissions. (Celia in the case of Haley, Hinjo and later Therkla in the case of Elan).

    If we focus on Haley's part, the mind behind all the big decissions was Celia. She was the one who took the decission of moving out of Azure's ruins. She was the one who took the decission of moving into Greysky City. And she was the one who took the decission to broke a deal with Hank and ally with the Thieves. And Haley followed suit in all three instances. Some of those decissions were poor, but Haley never took the steps to assert her leadership or even accept it ("I do not take responsibility for other people's actions. Only for mine, and even that is a recent development".

    So, Celia acting the way she acted? Totally logical. You are out there with a midget murdering psycho and a thief that neglects to assumr redponsibility. Someone had to do it, and the only remaining person capable to do so around Celia was herself.
    Its not the "Celia making her own decisions" part that is terribly controversial so much as "She did it by choosing to do something dumb that she had good reason to know was dumb." part. And the fact that she felt the need to sneak into town instead of simply stepping up and asserting herself like she did the last few times she wanted to motivate Haley to do something suggests that she knew that this was probably not a smart thing.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    She does apologise to Haley. And Haley acknowledges that she herself has done exactly the same thing in the past:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    You're just missing the context that Haley only accepts the apology cause she didn't realize yet that they lost Roy's corpse, that's literally the joke

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Moving into a place the only thing you know about is that someone that has no reason to lie about this particular information said "it's dangerous and will get you killed", in the hopes of finding a high level cleric, is not perfectly logical.
    Haley's entire deal is that she lies about everything. Especially when she doesn't need to. Again, not someone you should trust.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Trust is implicit when you recruit somebody for a task, at least to the point where you trust in their competency. If you invite somebody along for their skills and expertise, you don't ignore them when they say "don't do that".
    She didn't recruit Haley though, she gave Haley an ultimatum. 'I'm taking Roy with me to get resurrected. Either come with me and help, or stay behind by yourself.'

    Besides until then, she was batting 10/10 for decisions made.

    -Correctly got Haley out of Azure City
    -Correctly realized they were under a spell
    -Correctly unified the Resistance
    -Correctly realized that Belkar was a problem who needed to be controlled.
    -Correctly avoided the checkpoint with minimal casualties

    Then she hit Greysky and started making really dumb decisions. I mean, even ignoring entering the city itself, she should, as a lawyer, know to read the entire contract before agreeing, even verbally, to anything. Like imagine if she was more explicit with Grubwiggler. "Hi, I'm looking for a resurrection spell for my friend here."

    "Oh, I'm sorry, I create bone golems here. You'll want a cleric. You can find them at such and such location."

    "Thanks, sorry for the inconvenience."

    In all honestly, she even had a chance to pull the whole thing off if she hadn't been so dumb about Grubwiggler. It's not like she has a bounty on her head, and the Clerics of Loki might have price gouged her horribly, but they likely would've cast the spell regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Moving into a place the only thing you know about is that someone that has no reason to lie about this particular information said "it's dangerous and will get you killed", in the hopes of finding a high level cleric, is not perfectly logical.
    She can fly and cast illusions. It's not unreasonable to expect her to be able to escape most dangers. Her stupidity was most extreme in this strip, followed closely by the next one where she doesn't explicitly ask for a raise dead spell.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    It's not smart to not trust someone when they tell you something is dangerous when you yourself has no idea if that is the case or not. Doing the opposite of everything you're told by someone cause they tend to lie is not a good idea at all. And then when she does have ample evidence that the town is shady, as a dude openly talks about murdering his own brother(something that for some reason doesn't make her judgmental of him, even though she get's angry for much lesser things Haley does) she not for once second even considers Haley was right.
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 12:08 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    It's not smart to not trust someone when they tell you something is dangerous when you yourself has no idea if that is the case or not. Doing the opposite of everything you're told by someone cause they tend to lie is not a good idea at all
    Exactly. Haley lying is a good reason not to take what she says at face value, but its not a good reason by itself to doubt her judgment, and certainly not a good reason to assume that the opposite of what she says must be correct.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Its not the "Celia making her own decisions" part that is terribly controversial so much as "She did it by choosing to do something dumb that she had good reason to know was dumb." part. And the fact that she felt the need to sneak into town instead of simply stepping up and asserting herself like she did the last few times she wanted to motivate Haley to do something suggests that she knew that this was probably not a smart thing.
    She tried to get Haley to explain why, repeatedly, only for Haley to shut her down and tell her nothing. And in Celia's defense, they have been fighting monsters as they traveled, so why is a city so much scarier? Particularly when they made it through Azure City just fine, a place occupied by a hostile army.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    She did explain why, she said that it was a place where people with money get killed. And they didn't killed monsters, Haley and Belkar did, the people who weren't going with her to the town. Also, she is extremely against violence, so why would she want to go to a possible dangerous place that she has no evidence to support that will even have a cleric capable of reviving Roy? Even if we accept that she thinks the city isn't any more dangerous than the party can handle, if she is supposed to be the common pacifist person of the party why would she want to go to a possible dangerous place for basically no payoff?? And much less alone, when she can't fight back?
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 12:20 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    She tried to get Haley to explain why, repeatedly, only for Haley to shut her down and tell her nothing. And in Celia's defense, they have been fighting monsters as they traveled, so why is a city so much scarier? Particularly when they made it through Azure City just fine, a place occupied by a hostile army.
    Haley told her it was dangerous, that people would attack them and try and take their stuff. How much more detail does she need? Even if Celia isn't concerned, the fact that Haley, who knows a lot more about combat than Celia does, is concerned should have factored into her decision making.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Haley told her it was dangerous, that people would attack them and try and take their stuff. How much more detail does she need? Even if Celia isn't concerned, the fact that Haley, who knows a lot more about combat than Celia does, is concerned should have factored into her decision making.
    An explanation that actually explains how a city, a place that implies some level of order considering all the people who live there, is so dangerous?

    Should it have been factored in? Oh, yes, definitely. Celia certainly made the wrong decision. But Haley communicated badly as well, and considering Haley is a person who is so obsessed with money that she was willing to be taken prisoner in order to get a free trip to Azure City, and once literally lost her ability to speak when her treasure was destroyed, well she's not exactly a trustworthy person. After all, as far as Celia knows, Haley just doesn't want to go to Greysky simply because it would involve paying more money for the raise dead spell.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    An explanation that actually explains how a city, a place that implies some level of order considering all the people who live there, is so dangerous?

    Should it have been factored in? Oh, yes, definitely. Celia certainly made the wrong decision. But Haley communicated badly as well, and considering Haley is a person who is so obsessed with money that she was willing to be taken prisoner in order to get a free trip to Azure City, and once literally lost her ability to speak when her treasure was destroyed, well she's not exactly a trustworthy person. After all, as far as Celia knows, Haley just doesn't want to go to Greysky simply because it would involve paying more money for the raise dead spell.
    Its dangerous there because there are people who will attack them and try and take their stuff. Haley even explicitly says this. What is confusing about this? They will be attacked if they go to Greysky. There isn't a lot of room for uncertainty there.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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