The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Why would that need to be explained when they literally just left a city where everybody in it wanted to kill them?

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    "There exist within this city, people who will attack strangers and take their stuff" is true for almost every city in the cosmos, except the Upper Planes.

    A certain amount of danger, is unavoidable.

    Celia believed that the risks, were outweighed by the importance of getting Roy resurrected.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-09-05 at 12:37 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I always read it as Celia deciding to take initiative because she had seen Haley being very indecisive in the past, first in Azure City, then with concerns to Belkar, who openly murdered an innocent person with no repercussions (not counting the Oracle, since that one was forgotten). She figured the danger in Greysky City couldn't be that bad, and was herself blinded by her desire to see Roy resurrected to consider that Haley's reluctance was founded on more than "there are bad people here".
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-09-05 at 12:39 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Except there was no evidence that anyone in the city could revive him, besides, if Haley specifically states that it should be easily inferable that this was a city that was more dangerous than most

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Except there was no evidence that anyone in the city could revive him, besides, if Haley specifically states that it should be easily inferable that this was a city that was more dangerous than most
    Which is why she states in her monologue "if there's even a chance of this working, I'll do it". Because she believes that the odds are in her favor.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I acknowledge that mistakes were made, on both ends. While I acknowledge Celia being annoying to some, I don't dislike her anymore then I dislike Elan, who i'd argue is CONSIDERABLY more so. Plus, she's never accidentally committed mass murder.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Well, but unlike Celia, when V used familicide that actually kickstarted a lot of character develop, growth and redemption. While Celia never really changes, and stays a static character all throughout, same goes for Elan in term of character development. And even Elan at it's worse only blew up the gate, something that it's hard to determine if that was for better or worse in the long run, and at the time there was nothing that would let them know it was stopping the whole reality from being destroyed by the Snarl. The problem isn't characters making mistakes, but rather how those mistakes are framed and how they deal with the consequences and grow as people as a result, And also the function those mistakes serve narrative wise.
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 12:54 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Well, but unlike Celia, when V used familicide that actually kickstarted a lot of character develop, growth and redemption. While Celia never really changes, and stays a static character all throughout, same goes for Elan in term of character development. And even Elan at it's worse only blew up the gate, something that it's hard to determine if that was for better or worse in the long run, and at the time there was nothing that would let them know it was stopping the whole reality from being destroyed by the Snarl. The problem isn't characters making mistakes, but rather how those mistakes are framed and how they deal with the consequences and grow as people as a result, And also the function those mistakes serve narrative wise.
    And comparatively, Celia's actions have been rather little in the 'world-shaking' department. In fact, most of her bad actions have solely been a downside for Haley alone, whereas her good actions have done nothing but good for the entire order (particularly kickstarting the 'resurrecting Roy' arc).

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    That's not really the point though, mistakes aren't a bad thing narrative wise, the problem is how the story portrays those mistakes and their consequences. Celia never has to grow and change as a result of her mistakes, she barely even acknowledges that she did anything wrong, and none of the other characters preached their virtues while sitting in a book's worth of subplot that was ultimately all their fault(besides Miko).

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    And even Elan at it's worse only blew up the gate, something that it's hard to determine if that was for better or worse in the long run,
    He has to do that or there's no book 2 - Miko gets sent to bring the Order to Shojo. And no book 3, etc.

    That's not really the point though, mistakes aren't a bad thing narrative wise, the problem is how the story portrays those mistakes and their consequences. Celia never has to grow and change as a result of her mistakes, she barely even acknowledges that she did anything wrong, and none of the other characters preached their virtues while sitting in a book's worth of subplot that was ultimately all their fault(besides Miko).
    Celia's a static character, whose elemental attack is electricity. Someone mentioned static in terms of her character development, and I think that's a fair assessment. Hence, Haley's dismissal of her was probably well received by most OoTS fans.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Well, but unlike Celia, when V used familicide that actually kickstarted a lot of character develop, growth and redemption. While Celia never really changes, and stays a static character all throughout, same goes for Elan in term of character development. And even Elan at it's worse only blew up the gate, something that it's hard to determine if that was for better or worse in the long run, and at the time there was nothing that would let them know it was stopping the whole reality from being destroyed by the Snarl. The problem isn't characters making mistakes, but rather how those mistakes are framed and how they deal with the consequences and grow as people as a result, And also the function those mistakes serve narrative wise.
    I was referring to Elan as having accidentally committed mass murder. V was INTENTIONALLY doing so. And I think it's clear Celia was a case of a device/foil character: Someone on the opposite end of the spectrum from Belkar, just as lacking in Wisdom, and just as hard for Haley to deal with.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I think people have a tendency to find any character that ever contradicts protagonists to be annoying.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I think Celia, as annoying as she is, raises several interesting perspectives.

    1. The perspective of a civilian caught in a covert operation. I have always liked comparing (good aligned) adventurers to the navy seals or SAS: we know they exist, we know their job is essentially killing people and blowing things up and that they are very good at it, {scrubbed}. But if we were forced to tag along for a few weeks in the field, we would probably find that it's difficult to deal with some of the things they have to do. Especially if you consider that the people being killed are actually representatives of the lawful authority in the region you're operating. Murderhoboing people for loot and XP doesn't come naturally to everyone, even if they're "evil" (and Evil) people.

    2. The perspective of a supernatural creature as something other than a quest giver or a container of XP and loot. Magical creatures just don't get much screen space for character development. They either die to the protagonists, kill the protagonists, or give the protagonists quests or advice. I think it's at least slightly interesting idea that a creature that flies and shoots lightning at will may actually have other desires than flying out of melee range and shooting lightning bolts at its enemies. Though I admit this perspective would have been a lot more interesting if there had been some fallout between Roy and Celia over the whole thing. But yeah, Celia doesn't have wisdom, she can probably blame that ginger and the devilishly handsome halfling for everything!

    3. The perspective of someone understanding what their partner actually DOES at work all day. More comic relief, but I do chuckle at the idea of Roy going "Well honey, what did you think 'professional serial killer for a good cause' actually MEANS?"

    4. The perspective of a vapid girl realizing that being pale and skinny, and having good intentions and high charisma, doesn't actually solve all of life's problems. Ok, I'll quit now...
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-07 at 03:50 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Did anyone else think it was annoying that Haley didnít take the time to effectively communicate during that entire arc?

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    I think Celia, as annoying as she is, raises several interesting perspectives.

    1. The perspective of a civilian caught in a covert operation. I have always liked comparing (good aligned) adventurers to the navy seals or SAS: we know they exist, we know their job is essentially killing people and blowing things up and that they are very good at it, {scrub the post, scrub the quote}. But if we were forced to tag along for a few weeks in the field, we would probably find that it's difficult to deal with some of the things they have to do. Especially if you consider that the people being killed are actually representatives of the lawful authority in the region you're operating. Murderhoboing people for loot and XP doesn't come naturally to everyone, even if they're "evil" (and Evil) people.

    2. The perspective of a supernatural creature as something other than a quest giver or a container of XP and loot. Magical creatures just don't get much screen space for character development. They either die to the protagonists, kill the protagonists, or give the protagonists quests or advice. I think it's at least slightly interesting idea that a creature that flies and shoots lightning at will may actually have other desires than flying out of melee range and shooting lightning bolts at its enemies. Though I admit this perspective would have been a lot more interesting if there had been some fallout between Roy and Celia over the whole thing. But yeah, Celia doesn't have wisdom, she can probably blame that ginger and the devilishly handsome halfling for everything!

    3. The perspective of someone understanding what their partner actually DOES at work all day. More comic relief, but I do chuckle at the idea of Roy going "Well honey, what did you think 'professional serial killer for a good cause' actually MEANS?"

    4. The perspective of a vapid girl realizing that being pale and skinny, and having good intentions and high charisma, doesn't actually solve all of life's problems. Ok, I'll quit now...
    Yeah. I mean, I noted earlier. Celia's hypocrisy, in regards to other people doing violence even if she won't, was pretty clear when she started dating a dude whose job title is "Fighter".
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-07 at 03:51 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Its dangerous there because there are people who will attack them and try and take their stuff. Haley even explicitly says this. What is confusing about this? They will be attacked if they go to Greysky. There isn't a lot of room for uncertainty there.
    Which doesn't make sense. If people were attacked every time they went to Greysky, there wouldn't be any possibility to trade there, and a city cannot exist without people coming in to sell their products there.

    And explicitly, Celia was right. She was able to get to Grubwiggler without any problems, even make a deal with Grubwiggler without any problems. She made the wrong deal as it were, but hey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Why would that need to be explained when they literally just left a city where everybody in it wanted to kill them?
    There's a difference between 'a hostile army is occupying this city' vs 'this city is dangerous'. One is a clear statement and reason, the other a vague description.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    That's not really the point though, mistakes aren't a bad thing narrative wise, the problem is how the story portrays those mistakes and their consequences. Celia never has to grow and change as a result of her mistakes, she barely even acknowledges that she did anything wrong, and none of the other characters preached their virtues while sitting in a book's worth of subplot that was ultimately all their fault(besides Miko).
    Because she's ultimately a minor character who simply has very little at stake in the plot. Her motivation was to get Roy resurrected, and that's it. She doesn't even have any stakes in the world being destroyed considering she lives on a different plane of existence. Her purpose was to provide a new perspective (of a non-adventurer), and to prompt character development in other characters, namely Belkar and Haley.

    She does have some character development, in getting a first hand taste of violence and adventuring, but that only makes things worse between her and Haley. And it is minor character development. Before we can really get an idea on how Celia would change from that, she leaves the story, until the epilogue maybe.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2019-09-05 at 01:49 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Did anyone else think it was annoying that Haley didnít take the time to effectively communicate during that entire arc?
    It was consistent with her character from about strip 1. All her "lost of speech / aphasia" phase represented was that problem turned up to 11.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    To be fair to Celia, she did admit before she left that she didn't understand pretty much anything that Haley did. And to be really honest, adventurers themselves are pretty despicable people by modern standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Did anyone else think it was annoying that Haley didnít take the time to effectively communicate during that entire arc?
    Not communicating with anyone until absolutely forced to (her feelings for Elan, the situation with her Dad, etc) is her main character beat. If there's a way for Haley to screw up the story by not communicating, she'll take it.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Its dangerous there because there are people who will attack them and try and take their stuff. Haley even explicitly says this. What is confusing about this? They will be attacked if they go to Greysky. There isn't a lot of room for uncertainty there.
    They would be attacked also if they travel trough the wilderness. At least one random encounter is certain. Greysky city was dangerous, but it was only specially dangerous for Haley, for reasons Haley didn't share with Celia. "This is a dangerous place because it's full of evil people" is a very different deal than "This place is dangerous because it's full of evil people who want to kill me specifically".
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-09-05 at 02:08 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I know and I enjoy reading about how that aspect of her character develops. But it seems weird to me when people say ďitís so annoying that this npc doesnít go along with whatever the untrusting character whoís terrible at communicating says.Ē

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I don't think how anything can be clearer than "It's dangerous and there are people there that will kill anyone with money". Also, keep in mind that she doesn't decide to book out of there even after learning that this is a city where people casually admit to murdering their own brother to a complete stranger
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 02:48 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I don't think how anything can be clearer than "It's dangerous and there are people there that will kill anyone with money". Also, keep in mind that she doesn't decide to book out of there even after learning that this is a city where people casually admit to murdering their own brother to a complete stranger
    If only we had her internal thoughts at that very moment showing that she completely misinterpreted how remorseful the guy was about it.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-09-05 at 03:03 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    If only we had her internal thoughts at that very moment showing that she completely misinterpreted how remorseful the guy was about it.
    Celia's internal monologue I could do without. Her utterances are sufficient, both the annoying ones and the not annoying ones.

    Haley about tapped me out, and then some, on internal monologue frames for this story / saga/ series.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-05 at 03:56 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I don't think how anything can be clearer than "It's dangerous and there are people there that will kill anyone with money".
    Perhaps, "It's dangerous and my face is known by half the town who will tell the Thieve's Guild, whose leader wants me killed because I left the Guild, and whose chief assassin can barely restrain her desire to kill me painfully since the day she joined the Guild?"

    Because the first one doesn't makes Greysky city sound any more dangerous than any other big city, or any random dungeon, you know.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Like I said earlier, Celia thinks Haley's the sort of person who kills people because they've got gold in their pockets.

    What I failed to mention is that Celia might extrapolate that to "Haley has a very skewed perspective on what it's like in any given city. She's a cutter of throats and purses, so it makes sense that she mostly interacts with other people like that, and whatever impression she had of Greysky City was colored by the fact that she only associated with thieves and murderers."

    Or, a shorter one, "Haley's an adventurer, and therefore paranoid. She's exaggerating. It can't be as dangerous as a dungeon or a warzone- people actually live here, after all, and they've gotta go about their business somehow. Besides, Haley naturally gravitates to dangerous stuff anyways. Her perspective is skewed."

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I was referring to Elan as having accidentally committed mass murder. V was INTENTIONALLY doing so. And I think it's clear Celia was a case of a device/foil character: Someone on the opposite end of the spectrum from Belkar, just as lacking in Wisdom, and just as hard for Haley to deal with.
    I think Celia makes for a great High Int, Low Wis type character that we hadn't really seen before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I don't think how anything can be clearer than "It's dangerous and there are people there that will kill anyone with money". Also, keep in mind that she doesn't decide to book out of there even after learning that this is a city where people casually admit to murdering their own brother to a complete stranger
    Except the existence of the city itself proves that's wrong because if that is how the city worked, then nobody would ever go there for trade, and if no one would trade with a city, it would die. So clearly, Haley must be exaggerating or wrong somehow.

    Now that is true. That was where Celia started acting like a total nimrod. It's also a tragic miss for the opportunity to make a D&D joke. Like an internal monologue going 'I hate when I roll a 1 on Sense Motive.' Or something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    Or, a shorter one, "Haley's an adventurer, and therefore paranoid. She's exaggerating. It can't be as dangerous as a dungeon or a warzone- people actually live here, after all, and they've gotta go about their business somehow. Besides, Haley naturally gravitates to dangerous stuff anyways. Her perspective is skewed."
    Also very much this.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I'll admit: Maybe this is the Lawful part of me talking, but I kinda fail to have sympathy for Haley being angry one of her party members strole from her, given, ya know...Her being her.
    Celia asserted herself as Haley's representative. That means her responsibility is to get the best deal for Haley she could. Instead she got the best deal for her own conscience, without regard to what was best for her client. Not to mention, she did so without Haley consenting to have Celia represent her.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    and I think at least some portion of her complaints were fairly reasonable: The fact that the Order puts up with an actual serial killer is an issue. I'm on Haley's side of that issue, but only because, you know, he's pretty much the only ally she has left.
    Yeah, no argument here.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    While i'll acknowledge the naivete was kinda irritating, and the hypicsorcy...Well, if I was gonna have a problem with that, it'd be when she started dating someone whose literal title is "Fighter". She's pretty clearly of the "I won't use violence personally, but I can't control other people" school, which...Yeah, that is a flaw, but, we all have them.
    Well, you not having a problem with her hypocrisy isn't really a reason why I shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Plus, the Greysky City thing was her only real majorly-bad decision, and...Well, that's partly on Haley for being so damn cryptic about WHY they shouldn't go there. Understandable, given her past, but "there are people there who want me, specifically, dead" would probably have worked. Again, we all have our flaws: One of the points of the ar is that, without Roy around, none of the Order are really suited for leadership, Haley included.
    Given that Celia full well knows she is not suited to adventuring nor as knowledgeable as Haley about the locations they're headed, I don't think her naivete can be excused.

    And for some reason people keep saying Haley didn't give Celia a good reason for not wanting to go to Greysky City. She spells it out pretty plainly: "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." A pacifist who knows she doesn't know much about the adventuring world and that she can't be resurrected if she dies should probably take that warning from someone whom she knows knows better than her. And she definitely shouldn't abandon her allies to go somewhere that dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I acknowledge that mistakes were made, on both ends. While I acknowledge Celia being annoying to some, I don't dislike her anymore then I dislike Elan, who i'd argue is CONSIDERABLY more so. Plus, she's never accidentally committed mass murder.
    Elan is nowhere near as self-righteous as Celia.

    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    Haley, as far as Celia knew at the time, is the sort of person who kills people for having gold in their pockets.
    If Celia thinks of Haley that way, and Haley thinks Greysky is dangerous, that should make Celia less inclined to go there by herself, not more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    I don't think Celia is a particularly well-drawn character in her arc with Haley and Belkar, just because of the infuriating combination of great naivete and refusal to adjust her viewpoint. As a character, she doesn't entirely convince (and getting Grubwiggler involved was just unjustifiably stupid). She seems to exist mostly as a brake on plot resolution by insisting on things being done in a way that's slower, harder, and less likely to lead to a satisfactory outcome, which is frustrating for the characters and frustrating for the reader.
    Yeah, bolded in particular. It doesn't make her the worst person in the comic or anything, but it does make her one of the most irritating to spend time with.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2019-09-05 at 07:02 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Given that Celia full well knows she is not suited to adventuring nor as knowledgeable as Haley about the locations they're headed, I don't think her naivete can be excused.

    And for some reason people keep saying Haley didn't give Celia a good reason for not wanting to go to Greysky City. She spells it out pretty plainly: "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." A pacifist who knows she doesn't know much about the adventuring world and that she can't be resurrected if she dies should probably take that warning from someone whom she knows knows better than her. And she definitely shouldn't abandon her allies to go somewhere that dangerous.



    If Celia thinks of Haley that way, and Haley thinks Greysky is dangerous, that should make Celia less inclined to go there by herself, not more.
    The thing the last three people (and me, though in a very ineloquent way) said, she doesn't completely trust her, Haley associates with dangerous people, its probably not that bad, she's willing to risk it (she can fend for herself with her 6+ HD acting as sorcerer levels after all).

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    The thing the last three people (and me, though in a very ineloquent way) said, she doesn't completely trust her, Haley associates with dangerous people, its probably not that bad, she's willing to risk it (she can fend for herself with her 6+ HD acting as sorcerer levels after all).
    But I think bolded indicates the exact opposite. That's what I'm saying. It's like... if I was hanging out with Tom Brady, and he was like "we shouldn't play those guys, they're good at football," I wouldn't be like "well sorry, I'm gonna play them without you then."

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    But I think bolded indicates the exact opposite. That's what I'm saying. It's like... if I was hanging out with Tom Brady, and he was like "we shouldn't play those guys, they're good at football," I wouldn't be like "well sorry, I'm gonna play them without you then."
    It's more like you hang out with people like Tom Brady (meaning very good at football), and you talk about say, a team where everyone is from California saying "we shouldn't play those guys, everyone from California is amazing at football", but I'll just explain the argument again using Greysky city because it makes more sense. Haley says that Greysky is full of a bunch of criminals, and Celia's (likely) thought process is "well she usually hangs out with criminals and is one, she probably doesn't know that not the whole city is like her and her friends", it turns out Celia was very wrong here but it was understandable.

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