The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    When it comes to Celia entering Greysky city, I don't mind that she ignored Haley to enter the city nor that she has a negative opinion of Haley. I find both reactions understandable if not justified. It's the details of how she goes about it that seem questionable (at best) to me and I don't think her negative opinion of Haley (fully) justifies them. The main thing that sticks with me is that she brought the cart with her which I see as more than just a possible strategic error.

    I have a similar opinion on her deal with the thieves guild.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by goodpeople25 View Post
    When it comes to Celia entering Greysky city, I don't mind that she ignored Haley to enter the city nor that she has a negative opinion of Haley. I find both reactions understandable if not justified. It's the details of how she goes about it that seem questionable (at best) to me and I don't think her negative opinion of Haley (fully) justifies them. The main thing that sticks with me is that she brought the cart with her which I see as more than just a possible strategic error.

    I have a similar opinion on her deal with the thieves guild.
    Of course she brought the cart! That was the whole point, why would she not bring it?

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Of course she brought the cart! That was the whole point, why would she not bring it?
    Because a body and an easy means to transport that body is not necessary to find a cleric able to resurrect that body? And even if it was necessary I don't think the ends justify the means even if the means taken are only a minor issue.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    As far as Greysky's existence goes, its obviously a joke about thieves' guilds in fantasy media having a disproportionate amount of power and influence for what they can actually make happen. Their headquarters has a big sign announcing what it is. People get mugged openly in the streets. Of course the town couldn't actually function, but it does anyway because it makes a better story to have a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    As far as Greysky's existence goes, its obviously a joke about thieves' guilds in fantasy media having a disproportionate amount of power and influence for what they can actually make happen. Their headquarters has a big sign announcing what it is. People get mugged openly in the streets. Of course the town couldn't actually function, but it does anyway because it makes a better story to have a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
    Well, yeah, but Celia is not Elan, nor has she spent enough time near him to know his...unique brand of thinking is actually mostly-correct.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    It's more like you hang out with people like Tom Brady (meaning very good at football), and you talk about say, a team where everyone is from California saying "we shouldn't play those guys, everyone from California is amazing at football", but I'll just explain the argument again using Greysky city because it makes more sense. Haley says that Greysky is full of a bunch of criminals, and Celia's (likely) thought process is "well she usually hangs out with criminals and is one, she probably doesn't know that not the whole city is like her and her friends", it turns out Celia was very wrong here but it was understandable.
    OK, I see what you mean a little better now.

    I still think given the dangers and stakes (especially since Celia's not just "not an adventurer," but someone who can't be resurrected if she dies), it's smarter to wait-- especially since, unlike in Azure City, this isn't Haley not even trying to leave and look for help, it's "No, just not that place."

    And as Morgana has said, what makes her irritating is that even after she's screwed up badly by not listening to Haley, she's still super self-righteous about it and doesn't seem to have learned anything from the experience. I get really annoyed by people who aren't even a little humbled by their mistakes.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    It'll be interesting to see Celia's reaction if she ever finds out that the slain Thieves Guild members she tried to get resurrected (by bargaining away Haley's money) never were resurrected in the first place - with Bozzok spending all that money on turning Crystal's dead body into a golem.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-09-06 at 01:33 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I have to say, this thread made me realise how poor Celia's CV would look.

    As a paralegal, her big two are:

    (1) winning a trial where the judge and jury consisted of the main accused's own father (I think this was pointed out in-comic too); and

    (2) brokering a completely unnecessary and unasked-for deal with a thief king in the name of pacifism. Best case, this would have saved the unrepentant murderers who held Greysky City in thrall, by expending the resources of someone who was literally trying to save the world. What actually happened was that the resources were used to horribly torture an assassin, resulting in the deaths of multiple innocent bystanders.

    She may not be the best paralegal around, is what I'm saying.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caynist View Post
    I have to say, this thread made me realise how poor Celia's CV would look.

    As a paralegal, her big two are:

    (1) winning a trial where the judge and jury consisted of the main accused's own father (I think this was pointed out in-comic too); and

    (2) brokering a completely unnecessary and unasked-for deal with a thief king in the name of pacifism. Best case, this would have saved the unrepentant murderers who held Greysky City in thrall, by expending the resources of someone who was literally trying to save the world. What actually happened was that the resources were used to horribly torture an assassin, resulting in the deaths of multiple innocent bystanders.

    She may not be the best paralegal around, is what I'm saying.
    She’s not a paralegal. They, by definition, are not actually able to take cases, provide legal advice or oversee contract signings, without the aid of an actual lawyer.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by goodpeople25 View Post
    Because a body and an easy means to transport that body is not necessary to find a cleric able to resurrect that body? And even if it was necessary I don't think the ends justify the means even if the means taken are only a minor issue.
    Looking at it from Celia's viewpoint: she's going into Greysky City to get Roy rezzed, and she's doing so against Haley's explicit wishes. If she leaves the cart behind there's a distinct possibility that Haley--a person she doesn't really trust--will wake up, see her gone, and leave with Roy. If that happens Celia is not only trapped on the Prime Material (because it requires Haley to dismiss her) but she's down one boyfriend as well. On the other hand, taking the cart with her doesn't really accrue any additional risk, because who's going to want to steal a corpse? So it's entirely logical to take the cart.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Looking at it from Celia's viewpoint: she's going into Greysky City to get Roy rezzed, and she's doing so against Haley's explicit wishes. If she leaves the cart behind there's a distinct possibility that Haley--a person she doesn't really trust--will wake up, see her gone, and leave with Roy. If that happens Celia is not only trapped on the Prime Material (because it requires Haley to dismiss her) but she's down one boyfriend as well. On the other hand, taking the cart with her doesn't really accrue any additional risk, because who's going to want to steal a corpse? So it's entirely logical to take the cart.
    And I don't think that logic really reflects well on Celia, like at all.

    Also if there is risk to Celia there is risk to the corpse. (And while I agree that someone stealing a corpse is farfetched stealing a cart and its contents is not.)

    Edit: Would her being called(?) affect her ability to use other magic? Being on her own seems to be a bigger issue than needing the free and easy ride home Haley offers.
    Last edited by goodpeople25; 2019-09-06 at 03:19 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    She’s not a paralegal. They, by definition, are not actually able to take cases, provide legal advice or oversee contract signings, without the aid of an actual lawyer.
    She's referred to as a paralegal/paraelemental during the Azure City trial, and is still studying law. Maybe things work differently in OotS-land.

    (Though to be fair, the only thing she's done that would require the title of lawyer in our world is represent another person in court, and even that can be explained away as a very special circumstance)

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    What's annoying me is that so many people act like everyone in a story should always act logically and without flaw. That's not how things happen. People make bad decisions all the time. Those bad decisions don't fundamentally make you a bad person, especially if you made them in good faith. Celia's decision to go to Greysky City despite Haley's warnings was an honest mistake she made because she believed raising Roy took priority over finding a safer city.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    What's annoying me is that so many people act like everyone in a story should always act logically and without flaw.
    Yeah, they seem to forget that this comic is a stick figure fantasy parody.

    A character who is clueless about her surroundings and thus blunders a lot because she reads people and situations wrong? That's like what Elan has been doing from the start. Great source of comedy.

    Bonus points if that character takes the POV of an outsider to gaming. Like, you know, what happens when someone brings his non-gamer girlfriend to a game session and tries to explain how the game works to her, and she rolls a character and doesn't optimizes her character's build and is constantly making "wrong" choices during the game session because she plays her character like it were a normal person in a normal world and not a bunch of modifiers controlled by a powerplayer minmax gamer in a world whose inhabitants exist mainly as a source of XP for the PCs. And everybody loathes her and the GM asks the player to never bring his girlfriend to a game session ever again.

    Fantasy Parody, remember?
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-09-06 at 09:22 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Yeah, they seem to forget that this comic is a stick figure fantasy parody.

    A character who is clueless about her surroundings and thus blunders a lot because she reads people and situations wrong? That's like what Elan has been doing from the start. Great source of comedy.

    Bonus points if that character takes the POW of an outsider to gaming. Like, you know, someone bringing his non-gamer girlfriend to a game session and trying to explain how gaming works to her, and she playing her character like it was a normal person in a normal world and not a bunch of modifiers controlled by a powerplayer minmax gamer in a world whose inhabitants exist mainly as a source of XP for the PCs.

    Fantasy Parody, remember?
    If I were an analyzing man, and I am, I might wonder if it says something about our society that a dumb and/or naive male character is a lovable odd ball, while his female counterpart is a flaky ditz.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    If I were an analyzing man, and I am, I might wonder if it says something about our society that a dumb and/or naive male character is a lovable odd ball, while his female counterpart is a flaky ditz.
    This dichotomy applies to a lot of tropes. Eg a male character who is on the good side but not nice is a badass/smartass with a heart of gold, while an equivalent female character is usually read as a "horrible b*tch."

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    For my part, I find Elan equally annoying and out of place some of the time, especially post character growth. For example, the earlier crack about him needing warm milk to rest and prepare his spells seemed like a totally unnecessary cheap joke to me. He had an entire book dedicated to him having to grow up a bit, and then we get "his girlfriend needs to feed him warm milk at night like a little kid." He can be foolish, and I don't mind that, but at least let him have the dignity of being a functioning adult. He just gets less of it because, as a main character, he has more depth and screen time than Celia that allows for other aspects of the character to be there.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-09-06 at 09:55 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    And everybody loathes her and the GM asks the player to never bring his girlfriend to a game session ever again.
    In our groups (back when the hobby was heavily male in participation) we always tried to find ways to encourage ladies to return since we had so few show up at all. We figured that all new players, male and female, take a bit of playing to get used to this weird-fun game.
    (This was before my adult gamer days and mixed crowds were a lot more common).
    As a DM or GM, I always liked it (in those days) that the gamers knew that a lady would be coming since that would induce most of the males to bathe, and indulge in at least a modicum of grooming, before arrival.
    Quality of life improvement for the DM.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-06 at 10:06 AM.
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    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
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    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I mean, Elan is very different than Celia. He doesn't try to preach about pacifism in a comic where most problems are solved by violence, and constantly try to rag on the one person that's actually been trying to help you. He also actually helps the party a lot, and has a ton of character growth, not to mention how most of his goofs are generally irrelevant towards the overall plot, and much less abrupt than literally everything Celia did throughout the whole arc.

    The problem is not being ilogical and incompetent, but being all that while refusing to take blame and constantly judging other characters while they're during their hardest to save your ass. It's just that the story seems to bend it's own internal logic to not make Celia actually accountable for any of her flaws, while all the other characters when they do something dumb or act lawful stupid, suffer the consequences of those actions and a lot of times even manage to grow and become better people because of it.

    Elan is dumb but at the same time he has an undying love and respect for his party, also his poor judgment is constantly called into question by other characters, even Haley get's mad at him for not realizing Tarquin was clearly evil
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-06 at 12:16 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I mean, given Elan and the rest of the Order’s interactions with others that complaint readers more as “the people whose names I know have been inconvenienced” more than any meaningful statement about characters actions. It’s pretty easy to argue that at the least Elan, Haley, Durkon, and V have all avoided taking responsibility much more than Celia ever did.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I mean, given Elan and the rest of the Order’s interactions with others that complaint readers more as “the people whose names I know have been inconvenienced” more than any meaningful statement about characters actions. It’s pretty easy to argue that at the least Elan, Haley, Durkon, and V have all avoided taking responsibility much more than Celia ever did.
    I would make the argument that Celia's probably the most morally, capital-G Good character this side of Elan and absurdly less dangerous to be near.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would make the argument that Celia's probably the most morally, capital-G Good character this side of Elan and absurdly less dangerous to be near.
    That actually seems like a fair assessment. I don’t get why people act like her not wanting to personally be violent but supporting adventurers such as Roy is hypocritical- there are tons of people irk who don’t personally want to fight but aren’t against everyone doing it, whether it’s because they personally find violence upsetting or don’t feel like they can live up to that responsibility or whatever. In fact I think not wanting to personally be violent and wanting to minimize violence while supporting groups such as the police, the army, the mall cops, or whatever is actually the most common take on violence in real life in much of the world. Plus there’s a history of conscientious objectors doing things like working as military medics. No one would be confused by someone who was dating a cop not wanting to shoot people a wanting to minimize and avoid violence.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    That actually seems like a fair assessment. I don’t get why people act like her not wanting to personally be violent but supporting adventurers such as Roy is hypocritical- there are tons of people irk who don’t personally want to fight but aren’t against everyone doing it, whether it’s because they personally find violence upsetting or don’t feel like they can live up to that responsibility or whatever. In fact I think not wanting to personally be violent and wanting to minimize violence while supporting groups such as the police, the army, the mall cops, or whatever is actually the most common take on violence in real life in much of the world. Plus there’s a history of conscientious objectors doing things like working as military medics. No one would be confused by someone who was dating a cop not wanting to shoot people a wanting to minimize and avoid violence.
    Besides, the person she dates isn't a raging lunatic searching for reasons to fight any random person. Just because Roy doesn't shirk away from confrontation doesn't mean he purposely seeks conflict. He's a realist when it comes to violence, but Celia still likes him because he remains a good-natured person close to her own values (also she probably appreciates the trust he showed her to allow her to represent him in trial).

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    To be fair, Celia's judgemental attitude towards Haley is rooted to the fact that Haley is tolerating Belkar's actions without doing anything to keep him under check, even taking his side at times. So, Celia's remarks are fair.

    Of course, in hindsight, Haley only tolerated Belkar because she couldn't get rid of him, and rationalized it by refusing to take responsibility for his actions. But to an external observer it is not far fetched to assume Haley let Belkar go loose because her morality was not far from Belkar's. After all, the Bureucraric Deva made the same complaint to Roy - that he was willing to put Belkar's atrocities under the rug as far as he could use the halfling to further his own goals.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-09-06 at 01:31 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    To be fair, Celia's judgamental attitude towards Haley is rooted to the fact that Haley is tolerating Belkar's actions without doing anything to keep him under check and taking his side at times. So, Celia's remarks are fair.

    Of course, in hindsight, Haley tolerated Belkar because she couldn't get rid of him and rationalized it by refusing to take responsibility for his actions. But to an external observer it is not far fetched to assume Haley let Belkar go loose because her morality was not far from Belkar's
    Yes, exactly! To C, every single thing Haley tells her to do is colored by the Belkar issue. Add in that, frankly, if she listened to Haley before, they'd still be stuck in AC...It makes some sense. As I said, she's a mirror image of Belkar, and just as hard for Haley to handle.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I mean, Elan is very different than Celia. He doesn't try to preach about pacifism in a comic where most problems are solved by violence, and constantly try to rag on the one person that's actually been trying to help you. He also actually helps the party a lot, and has a ton of character growth, not to mention how most of his goofs are generally irrelevant towards the overall plot, and much less abrupt than literally everything Celia did throughout the whole arc.

    The problem is not being ilogical and incompetent, but being all that while refusing to take blame and constantly judging other characters while they're during their hardest to save your ass. It's just that the story seems to bend it's own internal logic to not make Celia actually accountable for any of her flaws, while all the other characters when they do something dumb or act lawful stupid, suffer the consequences of those actions and a lot of times even manage to grow and become better people because of it.

    Elan is dumb but at the same time he has an undying love and respect for his party, also his poor judgment is constantly called into question by other characters, even Haley get's mad at him for not realizing Tarquin was clearly evil
    She doesn't really rag on Haley all that much. She rags on Haley for not controlling Belkar, and she rags on Haley for valuing gold more than people's lives. And that's about it. She doesn't rag on Haley for killing the thieves in the first place, nor for stealing from Grubwiggler.

    And the disconnect in the latter case is really easy to understand. How can you put a money value on anyone's life? Sure, it's annoying and inconvenient, but surely no one dying is worth any amount of money? While in Haley's world, the value of a life has a very exact number, exactly how much it costs to cast Raise Dead.

    As for literally everything Celia did, well she really only made one major mistake, and that was not explicitly asking for a resurrection spell. No, going into Greysky wasn't a mistake, it was a gamble. Perhaps a stupid one, but as things played out, one that wouldn't have cost her anything if she had just asked Grubwiggler for the exact spell she wanted instead of being vague about it.

    Besides that, seriously what other mistakes did she make?
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    It's not putting money on someone else's lives, is giving an amount of money that's bigger than a lot of nations have to a criminal organization that just a moment back tried to kill you, and will probably do so again the moment it's convenient. It's an incredibly dumb thing to do, and is only not suicidal cause Celia wouldn't be there to suffer the consequences of her actions. And making gambles with this little of a chance of ever leading to a gain, and that would cost everything if it failed, something it had a high chance of happening is very much a mistake

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Well, the deal with the Thieve's Guild allowed Haley and Celia to enlist their help in recovering Roy's body. Something they couldn't have achieved on their own. Not without going to Cliffport to hire an army of mercenaries which would likewise cost them a lot of gold with a fair chance of losing track of Roy's body in the meantime.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    It's not putting money on someone else's lives, is giving an amount of money that's bigger than a lot of nations have to a criminal organization that just a moment back tried to kill you, and will probably do so again the moment it's convenient. It's an incredibly dumb thing to do, and is only not suicidal cause Celia wouldn't be there to suffer the consequences of her actions. And making gambles with this little of a chance of ever leading to a gain, and that would cost everything if it failed, something it had a high chance of happening is very much a mistake
    And yet Haley went along with it after learning about it. And mind you, she could've gone back on the attack easily enough. All the high level guild members were still down, all the people she killed were still dead. And it's not like Celia could or would do anything to stop her. It's pretty clear that Haley isn't concerned about the risk of the Theives Guild having that money and is more just angry that Celia gave her money away.

    It had a chance to cost everything, but there is also a wide range of possibilities where failure costs Celia very little. Take her being mugged for example. She could easily win the fight with a Charm Person spell or an illusion. And then she could either be scared away and return to Haley smarter, if slightly injured. Just because things went horribly wrong, doesn't mean they had to go horribly wrong.

    Another example, she could have actually paid Grubwiggler the money he was demanding, and then taken the Bone Golem with them. Haley would be pissed about losing the money, but they could recoup it later, and the Bone Golem would even help. Until they got to, well basically the same point the story got to anyways with V showing up.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    And yet Haley went along with it after learning about it. And mind you, she could've gone back on the attack easily enough. All the high level guild members were still down, all the people she killed were still dead. And it's not like Celia could or would do anything to stop her. It's pretty clear that Haley isn't concerned about the risk of the Theives Guild having that money and is more just angry that Celia gave her money away.
    [snipped, I agree with everything in the whole post but I'm adding to this part]
    I would like to remind everyone that Haley gets a light rash when she knows that Roy is giving Bandana some money to pay for their travel, and its worse if she sees the money change hands, loosing 10% of her money isn't going to make her at all happy.

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