The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    With Bozack down, who was even left to fight?
    Hank and those with him.

    In an alternate "Celia offers too little, Hank kills her, and arrives on the scene immediately after Haley and Belkar have killed Bozzok" scenario, chances are he'd have let them flee the house, at least, but then things would go pear-shaped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Well, she didn't needed to continue with the arrangement, just enough to get to Haley and Belkar.
    She's Lawful. Lawful people tend to stick to agreements once they've been made.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-09-07 at 05:41 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Hank and his goons were weak enough that Belkar could probably have taken him out himself, he single handedly beat Crystal and she was the second in command of the guild, and not really for her tactical insight

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Hank and his goons were weak enough that Belkar could probably have taken him out himself, he single handedly beat Crystal and she was the second in command of the guild, and not really for her tactical insight
    Citation needed on Crystal being the second in command, because if anything Hank was.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I guess the better term would be a main enforcer, but never the less she was way stronger than all of the other people in the assault, and Belkar took her out while at a numerical disadvantage for a majority of the fight

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    IMO the real danger from Hank is that he's a lot smarter than Bozzok.
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Well, she didn't needed to continue with the arrangement, just enough to get to Haley and Belkar. The thing is that she made the deal only partially to save her skin, but her primary goal was that she thought that was a preferable end to their situation
    She's LG, she wasn't going to just break the deal. But yes, she did consider it a preferable end. The idea that Bozzack would later break the deal because it would never occur to her that someone would value vengeance more than someone else's life. If Bozzack was the sort of person to honor the deal, I would actually consider it to be a preferable end.

    So yeah, I don't really consider it a mistake or a flaw for her to try and make the deal.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Hank was second in command. Crystal was Bozzock's personal enforcer.

    It's okay to be annoyed at Celia as a character for not going along with what Haley wanted; that's what provides the conflict and hence the story. But your contention therefore is that the story should have been "Haley, Belkar, and Celia drive a wagon to Cliffport, hire a cleric, and Roy gets resurrected." There's no character development in this half of the party. Belkar never loses the Mark of Justice and never begins even his fake character development (in fact, he probably ends up worse). It's not as good of a story. It's not even a story.

    Celia provides the same antagonist role as Miko- an NPC with powers who doesn't go along with the party and drives the plot in unexpected directions. (This was already noted here.) But she's far more likeable as far as I'm concerned.

    Haley doesn't exactly cover herself with glory in this arc either, and it's been pointed out to great length that just saying, "The Thieves Guild here has a price on my head and will kill me on sight," would have prevented the whole arc from taking place too. But no, she plays it cryptic and look what happens. Everyone is to blame, no one character exclusively. Celia made a rational choice with the information she had- take Roy to the nearest city and get him raised. At the time, the entire fighting strength of the party was one rogue and one sick halfling... who knows what might happen on the road to Cliffport? Get the fighter back on his feet. (Technically, get the fighter his feet back, but let's not quibble over details.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Celia is also clearly desperate when she's making the deal. She says it goes against everything she's been taught and may the gods forgive her. It's not like it was just something she went out and did on a whim, she was backed into a corner and out of options.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Oh sure, like I said earlier, Haley accepting the deal was a mistake. She should've killed Bozzack anyways. Attempting to make the deal saved Celia's life, and likely saved Hank's life too. Plus Hank's goons. So I can't say that was a mistake.
    The deal also enabled Haley to have the help of Bozzok, Crystal and the rest to retrieve Roy's body.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-09-07 at 06:13 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I really don't understand why it would need to be explicitedly said that Haley in fact did not trust the people that she hated her whole life, tried to kill her, where murderous psycopaths and had were extremely self serving and vengeful. And I honestly can't wrap my head around how not botching the deal was a mistake, but making the deal in the first place wasn't.
    Nobody has said any of those things. Nobody said the deal with the theives guild was a good idea. Nobody said that Celia was right to make the deal. Nobody has said that the thieves would use the money the way they said they would.

    The only point here is that Hayley's objection to the deal was on the basis that her own money would be used. That is clear from the strip. Of course you can construct other background justifications, and they can't be disproven - but that is not what is suggested by the strip, it makes it obvious thatHayley's objection is the use of her money.

    And like, why are you even continuing to use the 10 gp thing as evidence? It's a joke, based entirely around a hyperbole of a character's existing character traits, just how there are jokes about Roy being Lawful Stupid even though he is one of the more sensible Lawful types we see in the comic and at points barely even qualifies as Lawful to begin with. A character trait being subject of a joke doesn't tell you anything other than "yeah, that sure is a trait that character has", hell there was a joke where Durkon's mom thought Roy was Elan because he was clueless about something, would that be evidence that Roy is extremely dumb? No, because jokes by their very definition aren't accurate portrayals of reality, which often the reason why they're even funny in the first place.
    I'm not sure this was directed at me, but I'll answer anyway because the answer seems obvious. Some people disagree that you that it was just a joke, or think that if it was a joke it was one of those jokes that is uncomfortably funny because it merely exagerates the reality (Hayley wouldn't betray Roy for 10gp, but she might for a thousand). You disagree and think it was a joke that had no basis in Hayley's greed. That's fine, there's no way to prove who is right, so people are entitled to their own interpretation.

    Also, yes risking her life for other people when she has nothing to gain is an evidence that she values innocent lives more than gold, as you know...it's generally agreed upon that being dead is not really good for your financial health. Unless you're trying to imply that she values gold more than her own life?
    Well she does risk her own life for gold, so she does value gold at least more than a calculated risk to her life - indeed that's the whole reason she signs on with the order in the first place.

    Also, every single person in the order including the evil ones, and a whole host of supporting characters (including some evil ones) risk their lives for people (often their allies). Risking your life is a lower bar in the OotSverse because of the possibility of being raised (Roy actually explains this to Celia in the very strip we are discussing).

    Sorry Morgana, the mere fact that she helps others in the course of her adventuring career does not show that she values people more than money - everyone does that (even the likes of Tarquin and Belkar).
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2019-09-07 at 06:17 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Haley wouldn't betray Roy for any amount, as you know...if Roy loses she'll be erased from existence, this is not me saying she isn't greedy, just that this is a really bad example of the extent of this trait. Also, yeah Haley did risk her life to earn more gold, that doesn't mean she values gold more than her own life, just that she believes the odds of her dying are low enough that she's willing to risk it to get her fortune, which is also tied to getting her dad back. Now the case of Azure city is one where there was no calculus of such kind, it was an icredibly high chance of her dying, and no personal gain of her own, same goes for rescuing Elan from the bandits considering how at that point he wasn't awfully useful for the party. Furthermore, Tarquin and that point Belkar had never shown such inclination, Belkar was motivated by wanting to kill things and just reveling on other people's miseries, and when Tarquin helped the party it was off of a desire to help solidify his legacy.

    And valueing other people over personal gain is very much the definition of the good alignment, and if Haley indeed valued gold more than people she'd be in the Chaotic Neutral camp, which she wasn't
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-07 at 06:31 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I think you guys are missing that Haley is Chaotic Good. And even if she wasn't, being greedy is her character trait, not an unbearable lust for gold.

    Assuming that because she is a Rogue is vaguely understandable, but after you've actually gotten to know someone assuming they are insatiably greedy just because they are a Rogue is a terrible mindset. Haley looks out for herself, but she isn't about to let terrible things happen because she can get a few cents out of it.

    ...well, not for a while.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-09-07 at 06:35 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Yeah, that comic is pretty off character, but then again early instalment weirdness is not something uncommon to this comic. I hardly believe that Redcloak watching 2 dwarves have sex with the monster in the darkness is also consistent with what we know of him by now

    Edit: Not have sex WITH him, but WATCH with him
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-07 at 06:41 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Yeah, that comic is pretty off character, but then again early instalment weirdness is not something uncommon to this comic. I hardly believe that Redcloak watching 2 dwarves have sex with the monster in the darkness is also consistent with what we know of him by now
    Frankly, I'd call that character growth instead of just early installment weirdness.
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Also could work, point is that during her whole deal with the guild she was in the CG alignment

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I think the Giant stated outright, either on the forum or in commentary, that the reason for Redcloak's behaviour being so different in Dungeon Crawling Fools, was that he was traumatised by the events of Start of Darkness.
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  17. - Top - End - #197
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I'm not sure this was directed at me, but I'll answer anyway because the answer seems obvious. Some people disagree that you that it was just a joke, or think that if it was a joke it was one of those jokes that is uncomfortably funny because it merely exagerates the reality (Hayley wouldn't betray Roy for 10gp, but she might for a thousand). You disagree and think it was a joke that had no basis in Hayley's greed. That's fine, there's no way to prove who is right, so people are entitled to their own interpretation.
    The mere fact that the "joke" could be made, is proof that Greed is one of Haley's main character traits. That "joke" wouldn't work if done on Durkon, Elan, or even Belkar.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-09-07 at 06:51 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Haley wouldn't betray Roy for any amount, as you know...if Roy loses she'll be erased from existence, this is not me saying she isn't greedy, just that this is a really bad example of the extent of this trait. Also, yeah Haley did risk her life to earn more gold, that doesn't mean she values gold more than her own life, just that she believes the odds of her dying are low enough that she's willing to risk it to get her fortune, which is also tied to getting her dad back. Now the case of Azure city is one where there was no calculus of such kind, it was an icredibly high chance of her dying, and no personal gain of her own, same goes for rescuing Elan from the bandits considering how at that point he wasn't awfully useful for the party. Furthermore, Tarquin and that point Belkar had never shown such inclination, Belkar was motivated by wanting to kill things and just reveling on other people's miseries, and when Tarquin helped the party it was off of a desire to help solidify his legacy.

    And valueing other people over personal gain is very much the definition of the good alignment, and if Haley indeed valued gold more than people she'd be in the Chaotic Neutral camp, which she wasn't
    She values gold more than specific people, she would never pay to raise most of the thieves guild on her own, while I would place good money on Celia being willing to do that. Also, no she wouldn't betray Roy at that point in time for gold, but I promise you when she was hired she would be willing to betray Roy in the Dungeon of Dorukan, she skirted the boundary of Chaotic Good and Neutral for awhile in early strips, its still joke fundamentally based on the idea that Haley is a greedy miser, the fact that she would get a free ride was able to convince her to travel with Miko, she's definitely developed since then and isn't as money obsessed, but she still cleans all the gold, and a main part of her happy ending is making money, it's a core part of her character that is easy for friends to fall back on.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I think the Giant stated outright, either on the forum or in commentary, that the reason for Redcloak's behaviour being so different in Dungeon Crawling Fools, was that he was traumatised by the events of Start of Darkness.
    Yeah, but that was mostly being submissive, and that is not the same as sitting down to watch some porn with the MiTD (and the real weird thing there is the MiTD acting much less childish than he usually does).

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Yes, greed is a character trait she has, doesn't mean she values gold more than people. Also, why is joke in quotation marks? Yes, it's a joke, it was a cute call back to a thing Haley said to Roy earlier on. Also, why is she not wanting to revive the guild members even a telling she values people's lives more or less than is normal? I don't see any other party member actively trying to ressurect those that they killed, hell, they were straight up going to execute the Linear Guild if it wasn't for the possibility of them being revived afterwards

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    <massive snip>
    the real weird thing there is the MiTD acting much less childish than he usually does
    Yep, early installment weirdness in my book.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Yes, greed is a character trait she has, doesn't mean she values gold more than people. Also, why is joke in quotation marks? Yes, it's a joke, it was a cute call back to a thing Haley said to Roy earlier on. Also, why is she not wanting to revive the guild members even a telling she values people's lives more or less than is normal? I don't see any other party member actively trying to ressurect those that they killed, hell, they were straight up going to execute the Linear Guild if it wasn't for the possibility of them being revived afterwards
    It's enough for Celia (who didn't actually see any of the other events), because she values life more than anything, including logic sometimes, because that is how her character is written, she is the type of person who would give up all her money to raise the thieves guild (if she wasn't a college student with no money in the plane or, since she's in college, likely at all), and Roy will quietly nod his head to that assertion because he doesn't want to anger his girlfriend, recognizes that Haley is too greedy and that is somewhat of a problem to work with her, and still defend her and working with her to Celia.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Yeah, but that was mostly being submissive, and that is not the same as sitting down to watch some porn with the MiTD (and the real weird thing there is the MiTD acting much less childish than he usually does).
    People sitting down to watch porn isn't exactly an uncommon occurence in real life.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-09-07 at 07:23 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    People sitting down to watch porn isn't exactly an uncommon occurence in real life.
    Does that strike you as something Redcloak would do? With the MitD? Cause it doesn't seem like something he'd do to me (but its not that serious of early installment weirdness anyway, if he was doing that next time we saw him I wouldn't gasp and call it out of character, though y'know I would be confused on how we got to the point where this is going on), but as a different thing from his submissiveness to Xykon.

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Haley's character has developed and she has become less irresponsible and more willing to put the good of others above her greed, but it's not like Roy and Celia are reading the story and observing her character development as it happens. When you change it takes a certain amount of time for people to realize and adjust their expectations.

    As for Redcloak, comic 82 actually seems to be the first time his fussy attitude and dry humor come out. Prior to that he seems to just be servile to Xykon. Which makes sense because iirc 82 is the first comic where he's present without Xykon. Though I agree the whole watching dwarves have sex thing is kinda out of left field.

  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    I mean, watching people have sex without their consent is an uncommon thing. Or at least I hope so...Not that I'm gonna be mad that the evil cleric is doing a bad thing, is just that his brand of evil is much more of the waging a war against the gods and less creeply spying on dwarves
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-07 at 07:37 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Yep, early installment weirdness in my book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Does that strike you as something Redcloak would do? With the MitD? Cause it doesn't seem like something he'd do to me (but its not that serious of early installment weirdness anyway, if he was doing that next time we saw him I wouldn't gasp and call it out of character, though y'know I would be confused on how we got to the point where this is going on), but as a different thing from his submissiveness to Xykon.
    For MitD it was early installment weirdness as his "mental age" was pretty much still being calibrated by Rich.

    RC is a much longer and more complicated story, and probably calls for a closer reading of SoD and/or the CLG thread depending on how you want to interpret the "Crimson Mantle stops aging" idea (does it stop you at that point in your lifespan, will it allow natural aging to occur slowly until middle ageish, etc.).
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    For MitD it was early installment weirdness as his "mental age" was pretty much still being calibrated by Rich.

    RC is a much longer and more complicated story, and probably calls for a closer reading of SoD and/or the CLG thread depending on how you want to interpret the "Crimson Mantle stops aging" idea (does it stop you at that point in your lifespan, will it allow natural aging to occur slowly until middle ageish, etc.).
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    I mean, barring this Redcloak acts like no teenager I've ever met, even if from what I've heard Right-Eye accuses him of still being an angry teenager in it (SoD will eventually get here, soon enough I'll be basing this on my knowledge)

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Right-Eye wasn't being literal, Redcloak wasn't literally the same person he was when he first put on the cloak, since throughout the whole book he falls deeper and deeper on a slippery slope, and considering what we later see him do his mental stats also increased. What he meant was that knowing your time is limited and feeling your body grow weaker gives you a perspective and appreciation for your life and that of others that Redcloak lacked

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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    People sitting down to watch porn isn't exactly an uncommon occurence in real life.
    Hopefully, watching people do it via the equivalent of a spy camera is. Although you never know with the number of hackers and web cams these days.
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2019-09-07 at 08:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: What's the deal with Celia?

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    Right-Eye wasn't being entirely literal, but I do think he was saying that Redcloak hadn't really matured since he put on the cloak and that that was why he was going in the direction he was. In that he has gained a lot of skills and life experience that has made him good at leading large organizations, military tactics, evil scheming, negotiating evil workplace politics, and so forth, but hasn't become better at taking responsibility as a leader, understanding his duties towards the people he leads, having normal adult interactions, etc.

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