The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Sydney at least claims to have an actual contract with an actual signature on it at that point.
    Yes, the exact same contract she was shown at the recruitment meeting and which she signed then instead of having it rewritten (meaning signed much later).

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    And as any lawyer will tell you, a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You'd be surprised how often they're enforceable.
    You are both right. Verbal contracts ARE enforceable.... IF you can prove it exists. Which is why lawyers say they aren't worth anything because it can be very hard to prove one existed.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I think there is a formal way to lodge complaints; walking into a meeting to yell at people is not that. if she is a superpowered individual she might be too important to fire or really punish, in which case I imagine they need to get her a handler like celebrities and politicians have. Someone whose job is to keep her out of trouble and know what leverage needs to be used (free comic books! Extra days off! etc.)
    Well there is that in the military, but it's not taught till after the first day. I recall "Request Mast" being really early though like in the first week, so that way you'd know how to report abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think the biggest mitigating factor is that she was literally recruited, like, a week ago by that point, and that she has not had time to learn all the protocols and permissions because of that. Also, the fact the door wasn't locked would rather strongly communicate that nothing exceedingly private or important was going on.
    On the one hand, yes they would be likely to do a less severe punishment, or something physical with no paper trail. On the other, in the military if somebody says "Don't go in there," that's the same as having a locked door, and may be even more significant. Like if I broke into a room that was locked when I was under orders, I might not be punished at all, but if I disobeyed orders and went somewhere I was told not to, I certainly would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    Even aside from the factor of her having rare and valuable superpowers, there's a mitigating factor I haven't seen mentioned yet here that I'm not sure has any real world precedent: she's on duty only part time, with an individualized contract that specifically puts certain time periods in her civilian schedule off limits for her military/police duties, and she's complaining (with at least arguable legitimacy, I think) that her superiors have violated the terms of that contract. Specifically, she's complaining that right now is included in the time periods prohibited by the contract, yet she's been called into the base anyway.

    If her complaint is accurate, then she cannot be on duty at the time of this incident, so I'm not sure the military rules that would normally be relevant would actually apply. I'm sure she'd still be liable for something even considered as a civilian, but the punishment might be less harsh.
    So it's kind of like a National Guard or Reservist situation. I think technically because she was asked to report in, she would be on-duty status. Because in those contracts there's always fine print to the effect of "this can all be voided at the needs of the military" especially with regards to outside job obligations. They care about those to a point, but if it's the time when they're having people do paperwork, they'd stop caring. And I'm sure that the contract (were it an actual military contract) would in-fact reflect that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Actually, she signed up the day before. She was supposed to report in the morning for paperwork (W-4, I-9, etc) and orientation, didn't bother charging her phone so she's out of contact when on call, wandered around at random, spent a lot of time talking to reporters and tried to sandbag her business partner on skipping out on their busiest day without giving him a chance to get lunch. Oh, and then wandered about until she found her car once she was told to report in immediately. Her defense is that she made a verbal agreement that she'd get a half day off on new comic book day once she was active duty (after boot camp). And as any lawyer will tell you, a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.

    Then, instead of listening to anyone when they tried to tell her to report to the OOD, she stormed in, stomped to have a convo with the team sex demon, then resumed storming in to restricted territory.

    Since her powers come from exterior items, she really should've been denied use of them until she learned to grow up and not act like a tantrum throwing five year old. Sydney's smart, I'm sure she'd figure it out by the weekend.
    Well to be fair enlistment contracts which are on-paper aren't usually the paper they're written on, again because they tend to include language to the effect that they can change the contract if they need to. Like if suddenly we're at war, a bunch of people who have contracts to go into one military specialty might suddenly find themselves not in that specialty. That sort of thing. Or if we're at war a bunch of people whose contracts ended might find themselves not out of the military, that sort of thing. They always have language to that effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Also, i would imagine a civilian going into a secure area to hassle high-ranking brass would be more harshly punished, since you're likely breaking even more laws. Probably.
    It depends, a civilian would probably be charged with trespassing and in the military it would depend on a lot of factors. Now if it was an actual secure area (which this was not according to the author as well as the lax security) a civilian could probably be punished by being shot to death on the spot, which generally does not happen to people in the military, although it's not impossible.

    And a civilian might not even be charged with trespass depending on if they thought it was worth their time and resources to do so. Barging into a meeting in an office? Probably not, I mean they'd probably be fired, which is something you really can't do to people in the military, but certainly in the civilian world.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    With the contract loophole thing, that is all very true, however, its something they arent going to do willy nilly. Yes legally speaking they can go "Haha! You thought you would build nukes? TARMAC SCRAPER!" They also know that doing so is going to create a LOT of bad feelings and nobody wants to deal with soldiers who are very unhappy to be there if they dont have to. I think in this case it was a dispute over the actual time she was supposed to show up like, "Its a half day" "Yeah, and ive only been at work for a couple hours!" "Yeah but its noon, maxima wants you there now." (Military starts a bit earlier than comic book stores, so a half day is sooner for them) And so sydney was ticked because she was expecting like 2pm, maxima sent someone going, "Nuh uh, its noon, move it."
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    With the contract loophole thing, that is all very true, however, its something they arent going to do willy nilly. Yes legally speaking they can go "Haha! You thought you would build nukes? TARMAC SCRAPER!" They also know that doing so is going to create a LOT of bad feelings and nobody wants to deal with soldiers who are very unhappy to be there if they dont have to. I think in this case it was a dispute over the actual time she was supposed to show up like, "Its a half day" "Yeah, and ive only been at work for a couple hours!" "Yeah but its noon, maxima wants you there now." (Military starts a bit earlier than comic book stores, so a half day is sooner for them) And so sydney was ticked because she was expecting like 2pm, maxima sent someone going, "Nuh uh, its noon, move it."
    They really can though dude. Like really they can change out their contract with basically no rules on it at all. I mean they don't usually because that would hurt retention but really the only reason that they don't do it is because it would hurt retention and because usually they have the contract already set up for what they want. Like usually if they let you sign a contract to be a nuke Builder oh, they already have a need for new Builders and so you're already filling a need they have, but once you start actually getting into it they don't care anymore if they want you there a day early and it's a day they're not supposed to have you they don't care you'll be there a day early. Or you'll go to prison. Well you got to prison if they care enough, basically in the National Guard and the reserves you can miss a certain number of days before you're considered officially AWOL. So until you miss that amount of time you can basically just miss days. I mean you might get some recriminations when you come back but it all depends. But basically know their contracts are all written so that they don't actually have to follow any of them and they're all just basically suggestions for the government. Like having indoctrination on a day when is easiest for them, that's all the reason they need.

    Edit: but yeah there's like a plane crash on the way to tarmac scraper school and they suddenly need tarmac scrapers then you might suddenly be a Tarmac scraper.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2019-09-08 at 06:16 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    They really can though dude. Like really they can change out their contract with basically no rules on it at all. I mean they don't usually because that would hurt retention but really the only reason that they don't do it is because it would hurt retention and because usually they have the contract already set up for what they want. Like usually if they let you sign a contract to be a nuke Builder oh, they already have a need for new Builders and so you're already filling a need they have, but once you start actually getting into it they don't care anymore if they want you there a day early and it's a day they're not supposed to have you they don't care you'll be there a day early. Or you'll go to prison. Well you got to prison if they care enough, basically in the National Guard and the reserves you can miss a certain number of days before you're considered officially AWOL. So until you miss that amount of time you can basically just miss days. I mean you might get some recriminations when you come back but it all depends. But basically know their contracts are all written so that they don't actually have to follow any of them and they're all just basically suggestions for the government. Like having indoctrination on a day when is easiest for them, that's all the reason they need.

    Edit: but yeah there's like a plane crash on the way to tarmac scraper school and they suddenly need tarmac scrapers then you might suddenly be a Tarmac scraper.
    ... That's literally exactly what Traab just said, though.
    His statement was "Yes, they have the authority to do that. They don't usually do it, though, because everybody would hate it and they'd suffer from a morale and retention standpoint.
    Then you corrected Traab by saying "Well, actually, they do have the authority to do that. They don't usually do it because it would hurt retention."
    That's all I can think of, at any rate.

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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    ... That's literally exactly what Traab just said, though.
    His statement was "Yes, they have the authority to do that. They don't usually do it, though, because everybody would hate it and they'd suffer from a morale and retention standpoint.
    Then you corrected Traab by saying "Well, actually, they do have the authority to do that. They don't usually do it because it would hurt retention."
    My point was that they do sometimes do it "willy nilly". They don't necessarily need a good reason
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    This would not happen

    The artist/writer is detailing a scenario that has no basis in reality of ever occurring

    The same reason sailors just smile when watching Hunt for Red October, but let others enjoy the Hollywood-y-ness of the story entertain others
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Not wearing a uniform, being addressed as recruit which means likely they haven't even sworn in yet, backed up by she is still trying to negotiate a contract. Doubt there is any top secret meeting going on at a recruiting depot(MEPS). Likely the potential recruit would be cut loose at that point and told a military life isn't for her.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by cZak View Post
    This would not happen

    The artist/writer is detailing a scenario that has no basis in reality of ever occurring

    The same reason sailors just smile when watching Hunt for Red October, but let others enjoy the Hollywood-y-ness of the story entertain others
    I don't know I could see walking into a public affairs meeting which is what it was being a thing that could happen. It's not like it was some secret meeting it was supposed to be like a public relations meeting and it's not like the VIPs were actually there so I could see that happening
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    Not wearing a uniform, being addressed as recruit which means likely they haven't even sworn in yet, backed up by she is still trying to negotiate a contract. Doubt there is any top secret meeting going on at a recruiting depot(MEPS). Likely the potential recruit would be cut loose at that point and told a military life isn't for her.
    I don't think they cut them loose for a single incident it's possible it depends how far along in paperwork and stuff they are in this situation she has a lot of like enormously valuable skills being a superhero and that increases her negotiating power.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    She did sign a contract. This was literally her first day. She basically showed up on day 1 of basic and stormed into a high level meeting with multiple world leaders hollering at her commanding officers. I agree that with her skills there was no way she was going to be let go over this or likely charged with a violation of the ucmj even, but thats why I asked how it would have gone had she just been a normal person joining the regular american military.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    She did sign a contract. This was literally her first day. She basically showed up on day 1 of basic and stormed into a high level meeting with multiple world leaders hollering at her commanding officers. I agree that with her skills there was no way she was going to be let go over this or likely charged with a violation of the ucmj even, but thats why I asked how it would have gone had she just been a normal person joining the regular american military.
    Well, that's a very different scenario. A random easily replaceable recruit that did this would definitely be in a lot of trouble for it. I don't know about jail time, but dishonorable discharge would not surprise me at all, and if she didn't get discharged she'd get a ton of punishment duty.

    At least, that's what I'd guess as someone whose knowledge on the subject comes mostly from popular culture.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    I'm agreeing with everyone here, more or less.

    As the main character of a fantasy story, she's still gotten away with a ton of stuff she shouldn't have. Like this.

    As a human in meatspace, I could see just about any punishment depending on the level of secret info being said out loud when she came in, and with other world leader types on the screens behind her, I could see it being made somewhat publicly.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    Well, that's a very different scenario. A random easily replaceable recruit that did this would definitely be in a lot of trouble for it. I don't know about jail time, but dishonorable discharge would not surprise me at all, and if she didn't get discharged she'd get a ton of punishment duty.

    At least, that's what I'd guess as someone whose knowledge on the subject comes mostly from popular culture.
    Eh, the chances that you'd get discharged for walking into a meeting are almost zero, unless there was a pattern of poor behavior there. I'm not even sure that you'd get an Article 15 for that, although it is possible. Also recruits are allowed a lot more leniency because they aren't expected to know better. I mean it feels like it's worse punishment for them (since they're the ones doing the physical punishment) but... it doesn't go on their record and nobody cares how many pushups you had to do in Boot once you're out.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    *Walking into a meeting you were told you couldn't walk into*

    *Ranting at high-ranking officers*
    Last edited by Crow; 2019-10-16 at 07:39 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Eh, the chances that you'd get discharged for walking into a meeting are almost zero, unless there was a pattern of poor behavior there. I'm not even sure that you'd get an Article 15 for that, although it is possible. Also recruits are allowed a lot more leniency because they aren't expected to know better. I mean it feels like it's worse punishment for them (since they're the ones doing the physical punishment) but... it doesn't go on their record and nobody cares how many pushups you had to do in Boot once you're out.
    No, but they do care about the label "Persistent Discipline Case", as it indicates you will need an excessive amount of close supervision.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    No, but they do care about the label "Persistent Discipline Case", as it indicates you will need an excessive amount of close supervision.
    I've never heard of that label. And frankly I'm not sure that the person in question would qualify. You expect recruits to do stupid insubordinate things. The way you would get that sort of thing would be refusing to do whatever disciplinary thing they dreamed up for you after that.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    The way you get that note in your jacket is by not learning from your mistakes. Sydney is rarely shown learning from hers. She still hasn't learned to knock, for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    *Walking into a meeting you were told you couldn't walk into*

    *Ranting at high-ranking officers*
    That'd make your life miserable, but they aren't going to discharge you for that. You might not even get an Article 15 for that, I'd be surprised if a raw recruit did. An E-3 or E-4 or whatever, they'd probably get an Article 15, but not a recruit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    The way you get that note in your jacket is by not learning from your mistakes. Sydney is rarely shown learning from hers. She still hasn't learned to knock, for instance.
    That's a term the US military uses. The term the US military uses is "Failure to Adapt" which is what they'd discharge you for, but it isn't super likely from this single incident one day into somebody's military career that they would eject somebody on a failure to adapt, and you can even sign back up after a failure to adapt thing.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2019-10-16 at 11:30 AM.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    You won't be discharged, but you're absolutely going to be disciplined. Barging into a meeting and ranting at senior officers in front of the President. It's not going to be pushups. That is definitely going to be documented.

    The character's bigger crime is being completely insufferable TBH.
    Last edited by Crow; 2019-10-16 at 11:41 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Military discipline question.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    That's a term the US military uses.
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    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-16 at 11:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    The Army, Marine Corps, Navy, and Air Force are all ordered to secure a building. The Army surrounds it with armor and heavy infantry and does not let anyone out of it. The Marines storm the building, eliminate any resistance, and allow no one to enter it. The Navy turns out the lights, closes and locks all doors and windows and posts a fire watch. The Air Force takes out a 30 year lease with an option to buy.
    I've heard that, but thing is that these ones are pretty universal across the services. Reenlistment codes are pretty across the board and discharges are completely across the board.
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