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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: What I hope they do for 6e DnD

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    The only difference for textbook publishers is that those publishers have a captive audience, a third principle coming into play.
    That's a pretty critical difference though - I can't just say "no, screw you" when my professor tells me I need a fancy expensive textbook for Polymer Chemistry*. I absolutely can when WotC or Paizo release a new edition hot on the heels of a previous one.

    *PDF textbook piracy aside, and that is a real concern.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    Worth remembering College Textbook effect. There is motive to publish new editions as it boosts sales. It's not the only factor to consider, but it's a powerful one. I would be very surprised if we never get a 6e.
    I think we're much more likely to first get some kind of 5.5/Essentials-style spinoff first, assuming they don't go with my genre-branching-out idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    4e nearly killed the product line and 2e did end up killing that company (at least partially).
    4e didn't come close to killing the product line. Just the one edition. They went back to the drawing board and knocked it out of the park. Just a misstep, not a step back, much less a total loss.
    Pleh is right; even when 4th knocked D&D out of the top spot for the first time, from 2011-2014 or so, it was still the #2 TTRPG in the world behind Pathfinder. A drastic change was needed, sure, but it was very far from dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by malachi View Post
    Oh, and I forgot to mention: do something to remove the pass/fail or affected/immune state of things. For instance, hold person could do something like the following:
    - If the target fails their save by 6 or more, the target is paralyzed.
    - If the target fails their save by up to 5, the target is stunned.
    - If the target passes their save by 0 - 5, the target is restrained.
    - If the target passes their save by 6 or more, the target is unaffected.

    This way, the method to make it hard for legendary bosses to be stunlocked and killed to death, but still allow for effects other than HP damage to resolve the conflict, could be to give it an ability like "3/day: If this creature fails it's save, treat it as if it had barely passed", instead of 5e's "3/day: If this creature fails it's save, it instead passes".
    Pathfinder 2e has success levels and I like the look of it a lot. Critical success/failure is determined by being 10 over/under the DC, with a nat 20 or 1 respectively raising or lowering your success tier by one. So if the DC is 25, your mod is +7, and you roll a 19 (total 26), you pass. If you roll a 20 (total 27), you still didn't beat it by 10, but your success is upgraded to a critical success. If you roll a 10 (total 17) you fail, and if you roll a 4 (total 11), you critically fail.

    In 2e, you have Color Spray:
    • Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
    • Success The creature is dazzled for 1 round.
    • Failure The creature is stunned 1, blinded for 1 round, and dazzled for 1 minute.
    • Critical Failure The creature is stunned for 1 round and blinded for 1 minute.


    And Sleep:
    • Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
    • Success The creature takes a –1 status penalty to Perception checks for 1 round.
    • Failure The creature falls unconscious. If it's still unconscious after 1 minute, it wakes up automatically.
    • Critical Failure The creature falls unconscious. If it's still unconscious after 1 hour, it wakes up automatically.
    Last edited by Elysiume; 2019-09-16 at 03:09 AM.

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    Re: What I hope they do for 6e DnD

    What I've decided I want: Intellectual honesty, not passing the buck, and keeping promises.

    If whoever works on 6e can't or won't produce a decent set of rules that is clear, reasonable, and not subject to years of debate and/or ridicule, then they need to admit it. State what things that the game can and should do, and what it actually does well, so that the customers know what to expect.

    Own up to the failings of the rules/adventures and explicitly inform the customers about what they'll need to do to make the product work. Don't sell something as swashbuckling adventure and intrigue where half the time a character attempts a classic swashbuckling stunt the system ends it in an ignominious face-plant.

    If there's a promise to release modular and additional rules or to accommodate games styles other than 'five people beat up monsters in a dungeon' then that needs to happen in a timely and dependable manner. We're 40 years into the RPG hobby, you can have optional and advanced combat mechanics that go beyond 'Flanking: Y/N?' without scaring away the customer base, and you can probably develop it in less than six years too. Ditto for aerial combats, or naval combats, or mass combat, or extra-planar exploration, or more than a single type of magic system, or...

    AD&D was a mass of optional rules that went insane if you tried to include and use everything at once but worked fine if you kept it focused on what you wanted it to do. 3.x shovelled out tons of content and left the players to dig through it to find the good bits, and suffered from developer preconceptions about how to play the game that weren't part of the rules. 4e actually mostly held up its promises, eventually, even if it wasn't really what most people apparently wanted from D&D.

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    Default Re: What I hope they do for 6e DnD

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I feel like there's a lot of ground between "D&D stays exactly as it is" and "D&D becomes a GURPS clone". Whatever 'GURPS clone' is even supposed to mean; I get the impression GURPS is mostly thrown around as a generic bad thing, or at least one D&D shouldn't become. In practice, of course, D&D will stay exactly as it is even if there's a sixth edition in a few years' time. But there's nothing wrong with speculating about what could be.
    The reason why turning dnd in gurps is bad is not that gurps is bad: it is rather that if you could have the choice between an apple pie and a pizza there is more variety and higher odds find what you want you than if you have to choose between the previous pizza and an identical pizza.
    Essentially: clones adds less interest than new games (except if the clone is better than the original but it is unlikely that wotc would make a better gurps than whoever did gurps before)
    Last edited by noob; 2019-09-16 at 07:24 AM.

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    Default Re: What I hope they do for 6e DnD

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    That's a pretty critical difference though - I can't just say "no, screw you" when my professor tells me I need a fancy expensive textbook for Polymer Chemistry*. I absolutely can when WotC or Paizo release a new edition hot on the heels of a previous one.

    *PDF textbook piracy aside, and that is a real concern.
    Sure, but the important bit is that it doesn't negate the publisher's incentive to try. The fact that you can refuse to buy any further editions does not mean the marker at large will follow suit. And honestly, they only care about how the market will trend, not how individual consumers like you and I will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysiume View Post
    Pathfinder 2e has success levels and I like the look of it a lot. Critical success/failure is determined by being 10 over/under the DC, with a nat 20 or 1 respectively raising or lowering your success tier by one. So if the DC is 25, your mod is +7, and you roll a 19 (total 26), you pass. If you roll a 20 (total 27), you still didn't beat it by 10, but your success is upgraded to a critical success. If you roll a 10 (total 17) you fail, and if you roll a 4 (total 11), you critically fail.

    In 2e, you have Color Spray:
    • Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
    • Success The creature is dazzled for 1 round.
    • Failure The creature is stunned 1, blinded for 1 round, and dazzled for 1 minute.
    • Critical Failure The creature is stunned for 1 round and blinded for 1 minute.


    And Sleep:
    • Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
    • Success The creature takes a –1 status penalty to Perception checks for 1 round.
    • Failure The creature falls unconscious. If it's still unconscious after 1 minute, it wakes up automatically.
    • Critical Failure The creature falls unconscious. If it's still unconscious after 1 hour, it wakes up automatically.
    Degrees of success would be a huge help to D&D, which has way too much "pass-fail".
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Degrees of success would be a huge help to D&D, which has way too much "pass-fail".
    Plus the occasional 'fail by four or more on your climb check and...,' which tends to work poorly (at least when done on a individual basis). So I'll be interested to hear how it works for PF 2e.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    So, I'm not understanding the nature of your complaint. How is less more? It sounds like you're saying you'd rather just have Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard, rather than adding additional options. Those other options make some people happy; what is to be gained by removing such lateral versatility?
    Simplicity, thematic consistency, broader individual classes...


    Then you have the 4e problem, which admittedly 5e solves by not releasing any new content. But put simply, the more options you have the harder it is to balance them all. Now you could go the In Nomine route of not being too concerned with balance, but people keep telling me that the big strength of class-based games is them being more balanced.

    But at the end of the day, I'm more likely to run BD&D than 5e, because I prefer how it fits together. And that's fine, I don't need 5e and can make do with just the Rules Cyclopedia.

    Like, imagine if all you had was Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard, and "dwarf" was an option on "Fighter" (that shows up in some random splat book). That wouldn't feel the same as having different races built into the system, would it?
    Sounds like a great thing actually (although if you read my post I wasn't arguing against a race/class split. On the other hand, elf is totally a class). Clearly we have decided that your character's class, or broad archetype, takes precedence over their race. No it wouldn't feel the same, just like Basic D&D's Dwarf feels different to AD&D1e's Dwarf.

    But let's take this example, where such things as dwarves and elves are variants of the classes and are introduced in splatbooks. They could be put in with thematically relevant books, such as one on underground complexes and one on forests, or we could have them in a book dedicated to races, or make a 'player's handbook 2' specifically for a wide variety of player options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    He's complaining about the compromised nature of 5e. He wanted a back to basics core with the rest added later.

    What he neglected to realize is that isn't what Hasbro wanted. They wanted an evergreen edition where the vast majority of revenue came from the core books while maybe releasing some splat books for enthusiasts later if they thought that would make money. And Hasbro big-wig corporate idea turned out to make tons of money. I imagine the 5e splat books sell a tad better than 4e/3e books, but the drop off has to be a crazy amount or they would be churning out more books. 5e just isn't going to cater to people that need at least 10+ RPG books a year.
    Yep, in my opinion the core rulebook had too many options when this new-fangled AD&D thing came out.

    Although in all seriousness, I wouldn't have minded if they'd gone for a more 2e setup, where you take the Warrior class and pick the Paladin subclass. Which is what was originally promised. But apparently that wasn't enough like 3.X for people.

    I also get that Hasbro wanted to focus more on core than supplements, and that's fine. Although I'd argue they're still incredibly slow, and I'm nostalgic for when Dungeon would give you new adventures every month (some stand alone, some as full campaigns, it was amazing!). But D&D now feels more like a Live Service where the product is being part of the Adventurer's League, rather than the product being contentas it is for most games. My problem is much more the areas I'd like to see getting support (more out there and original settings) not really doing so, although I guess I should pick up the Ravnica book.

    I'd actually like to know what the designers think is important to D&D. If it's archetype emulation I wouldn't mind the wide variety of classes if they narrowed the Fighter and Rogue somewhat, but if it's say character emulation I'd much rather they focused their efforts on something that isn't 13 classes. In all honesty if, as I expect, the designers and fanbase at large consider class to be the defining character element I'd much rather see subraces and Feats removed from the game so more attention could be focused on them

    Then again, I suspect that D&D should also change the 'standard' set of classes, probably to Bard/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard, due to the fact that I'm the only person I know who has ever chosen to play the Cleric (although I know people who have resigned themselves to it). In fact the most common class picks in my experience are Druid and Rogue, with Fighter and Barbarian following and the Cleric and Wizard at the bottom of the pile. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

    Anyway, I want to go back to basics, and I want archetypes to be stronger. I don't care about the Paladin of the Ancients, I'm not sure what archetype it's meant to represent, but both Devotion and Vengence are clear archetypes that look fun. They'd make great subclasses for a Fighter.

    EDIT: at the same time, I should point out that I don't actually want 6e. I can serve my desires by simply running BD&D, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, or Basic Fantasy with a handful of houserules, or by just ruunning a GURPS or TDE game. I'm just trying to explain why 5e disappointed me.
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2019-09-16 at 11:01 AM.
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    Default Re: What I hope they do for 6e DnD

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    EDIT: at the same time, I should point out that I don't actually want 6e. I can serve my desires by simply running BD&D, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, or Basic Fantasy with a handful of houserules, or by just ruunning a GURPS or TDE game. I'm just trying to explain why 5e disappointed me.
    And you probably bought the 5e core books right? You being disappointed only cuts into their revenue because you are not likely to buy replacement books (but I imagine that very few people do that anyways).

    Most ttRPG players only play RPGs for a small portion of their life and then never touch them again. That is the target audience and 5e only needs enough content for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    He's complaining about the compromised nature of 5e. He wanted a back to basics core with the rest added later.

    What he neglected to realize is that isn't what Hasbro wanted. They wanted an evergreen edition where the vast majority of revenue came from the core books while maybe releasing some splat books for enthusiasts later if they thought that would make money. And Hasbro big-wig corporate idea turned out to make tons of money.
    We all know what the economic strategy with 5e is and that it's been profitable for them. But equating their profit with the good of the consumer is bizarre, especially in an "ought" thread that's about what consumers want. If you don't think Hasbro will ever make another edition, that's one thing, but if you think there shouldn't ever be another edition, find a better argument than Hasbro's margin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    There's many of us who consider 4e the better designed game compared to 5e, but there's not deny that 5e is more popular due to 'feeling like D&D', whatever that means.
    I respect 4e for one thing in particular: it's the only WOTC edition that's fun when played in exactly the way the designers expected.

    It also gets points for abandoning Vancian magic, which would definitely be a requirement for 6e. 4e and 5e were both designed as reactions against previous editions, so hopefully this trend continues and 6e actually has some kind of vision for the future, instead of 5e's "Neu-AD&D forever".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    We all know what the economic strategy with 5e is and that it's been profitable for them. But equating their profit with the good of the consumer is bizarre, especially in an "ought" thread that's about what consumers want. If you don't think Hasbro will ever make another edition, that's one thing, but if you think there shouldn't ever be another edition, find a better argument than Hasbro's margin.




    I respect 4e for one thing in particular: it's the only WOTC edition that's fun when played in exactly the way the designers expected.

    It also gets points for abandoning Vancian magic, which would definitely be a requirement for 6e. 4e and 5e were both designed as reactions against previous editions, so hopefully this trend continues and 6e actually has some kind of vision for the future, instead of 5e's "Neu-AD&D forever".
    I imagine that an actual 6e will be backwards compatible with 5e content. Notice how most of the splat books are setting specific?

    So the fundamentals are not going to change. We will have vancian magic, but maybe sorcerer can go more the way of warlock with plenty of short rest (15 minutes rather than an hour) spell slots while the warlock moves more towards invocations/rituals. Maybe the skill system will replace the d20 with a more bell curved 3d6 system, or maybe they do away with skills completely and have everyone roll under attributes for skills with background/class features giving advantage on some rolls. I imagine that magic items and monsters would get a heavy rework. Fighter would get a facelift while ranger would get overhauled, paladin toned down, and the MORE damage math feats removed. Etc.

    We will see in 2024 if a new edition happens. If it does not happen by then, I doubt it ever will (though I imagine at least errata will go into printings)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Degrees of success would be a huge help to D&D, which has way too much "pass-fail".
    It extends out pretty easily from Advantage/Disadvantage too - if the standard is to roll 2 dice and check them individually you at least get a full success, full failure, partial success really easily. That's especially useful in the Save or Die and Save or Suck space, where a partial success is still worth something but a full success really hurts, while also being unlikely but not impossible when used against resistant targets.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    I think short rest as used in 5e is a terrible idea, cause it assumes way too much when in actuality in a majority of campaings if you can take a 4 hours rest you can probably afford an 8 hours one. Like, it's just a very specific time frame when most times you're either on a ticking clock so you can't stop for hours, or you're in not that much of a hurry and can afford to rest up for 8 hours

    Legendary resistances are also something that bore me, cause honestly they don't really add any interesting interaction and mostly just seem to make the fights longer as you use your bad spells in the hopes that the creature will burn it's resistances off, which just kinda takes 3 rounds of basically trying to force the creature to spend all it's get out of jail free cards
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-18 at 02:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I think short rest as used in 5e is a terrible idea, cause it assumes way too much when in actuality in a majority of campaings if you can take a 4 hours rest you can probably afford an 8 hours one. Like, it's just a very specific time frame when most times you're either on a ticking clock so you can't stop for hours, or you're in not that much of a hurry and can afford to rest up for 8 hours
    A short rest is an hour, not four hours, which makes it a lot easier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Legendary resistances are also something that bore me, cause honestly they don't really add any interesting interaction and mostly just seem to make the fights longer as you use your bad spells in the hopes that the creature will burn it's resistances off, which just kinda takes 3 rounds of basically trying to force the creature to spend all it's get out of jail free cards
    Agreed on this count. Legendary resistances feel like a bad solution to the serious problems around SoS/SoD spells in 3.5.

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    I want spells. One thing I like about 3e/3.5 is that it feels like, if a wizard has the gold and time, there is a ridiculous number of spells they can purchase or research (I BUILT THIS SPELL IN A CAVE WITH A BOX OF SCRAP PAPER!), each of which has its own unique niche and nuance.

    Sometimes they're duplicates of existing spells but worded just differently to make it different. Or they're variants.

    But it really helps being a wizard if there's a sea of possible moves you can do.

    (I also feel all classes should pick up and research maneuvers in the same way which work like spells but are specialised techniques they use in combat. Make fighters wizards but they cast punch and slice rather than fireball!)

    (that said I feel my vision for a 6e would probably end up as hated as 4e was)



    I'd probably say that they'll increase their online stuff. This time they might even master online character sheets. Due to there being issues with roll20's management I doubt they'll absorb roll20, but they'll make their own competing system that syncs up with d&d beyond.

    HOPEFULLY they don't have a pet podcast thing this time like Critical Role, because it kinda sucks that one professionally made realplay dnd podcast gets official featuring on the dnd website while there's billions of other ones that aren't so helped by the very visible source brand.

    I can imagine them rebooting or redoing a D&D cartoon to hook the younger audiences now they're having an upswing again. Maybe even work off of nostalgia and redo the old one with less panty shots, annoying unicorns and stuff and make it better written!

    Monk will continue to be useless.

    They'll make bards as complicated to get into as possible as a nod to the old way, but end up making a bard archetype for sorcerer/rogue multiclasses.

    Tieflings will continue to get more love than aasimar.

    The Greyhawk setting will suddenly stop getting mentioned and they'll make the system HARD fixed into the Forgotten Realms.

    They'll make a 3rd D&D MMO on top of DDO and Neverwinter, and this one will sync with your Adventure League character sheet and can only level up when approved by an AL DM.

    Sha'ir will become a base class, replacing the cleric, cleric will be a splatbook base class in Bodak's Eye: The Book Of Divine Classes And How To Kill Them

    Mystra will die again. It's honestly more surprising that she was alive again for a bit.

    Magic will still be vancian, except you can sacrifice inspiration and advantage to refresh spell slots on a 1:1 ratio with 5 minutes preparation. Also gold.

    Neraphim will be a core race, because everybody loves lawful frogmen from the chaos realms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    It extends out pretty easily from Advantage/Disadvantage too - if the standard is to roll 2 dice and check them individually you at least get a full success, full failure, partial success really easily. That's especially useful in the Save or Die and Save or Suck space, where a partial success is still worth something but a full success really hurts, while also being unlikely but not impossible when used against resistant targets.
    How would that work, though. The standard is to roll one die. Unless you mean expanding the advantage/disadvantage mechanic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malphegor View Post
    HOPEFULLY they don't have a pet podcast thing this time like Critical Role, because it kinda sucks that one professionally made realplay dnd podcast gets official featuring on the dnd website while there's billions of other ones that aren't so helped by the very visible source brand.
    I heavily doubt that they are going to stop piling behind Critical Role.

    I don't get why people watch others perform playing an RPG, but it's hella popular.
    Last edited by Rhedyn; 2019-09-18 at 06:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I think short rest as used in 5e is a terrible idea, cause it assumes way too much when in actuality in a majority of campaings if you can take a 4 hours rest you can probably afford an 8 hours one. Like, it's just a very specific time frame when most times you're either on a ticking clock so you can't stop for hours, or you're in not that much of a hurry and can afford to rest up for 8 hours
    In addition to the point that short rests are only 1 hr, I've been toying with the idea of houseruling short rests to take 1 minute. That's how Jedi regained Force Powers in SWSE and I always felt like it worked pretty well for what I think they were going for with classes that rely on frequent short rests. 1 minute is enough time that they can reasonably take at any point as long as there aren't enemies literally marching towards them from around the corner. Every new encounter refreshes short rest abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    I don't get why people watch others perform playing an RPG, but it's hella popular.
    People like to watch sports instead of play them. Sometimes you can enjoy watching a game well played more than taking the time to get good at it yourself.

    Sometimes the best inspiration to try is to see someone else succeed.
    Last edited by Pleh; 2019-09-18 at 07:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    People like to watch sports instead of play them. Sometimes you can enjoy watching a game well played more than taking the time to get good at it yourself.

    Sometimes the best inspiration to try is to see someone else succeed.
    The problem with a lot (not all, but a lot) of the "podcast" and "youtube" and "twitch" RPG campaigns is that they feel less like watching sports, and more like watching pro wrestling. That is, one gets the sense that we're not watching people play a RPG, but rather watching people put on the performance of playing an RPG.



    As for rests and such, I'd just get rid of "per encounter" and "per rest" and "per day" powers entirely. The whole structure makes a lot of assumptions about the sort of campaign, adventuring, and even "story" (ugh) that's being done, and doesn't fit much else. And it's a source of a lot of the balance and disconnect issues between the classes.

    Rests would just be for recovery of hit points and a resource pool. The resource pool would power everything that was supposed to be limited in uses per unit time. It could be Class or "group of Classes" specific, but honestly I'd prefer it to be universal, so that multiclassing didn't cause a character to have a bunch of balkanized "pools".
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-09-18 at 09:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    People like to watch sports instead of play them. Sometimes you can enjoy watching a game well played more than taking the time to get good at it yourself.

    Sometimes the best inspiration to try is to see someone else succeed.
    Is this a bad time to point out that after watching some of it, I don't think it's "real". Like those aren't actual games. It's a show.

    I know it's important for some people to maintain the illusion that it is a real game, but come on.

    If you want some authentic D&D stories, go to YouTube and watch Puffin Forest. It's fun because you don't watch him actually play the game. He just tells stories about playing the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Is this a bad time to point out that after watching some of it, I don't think it's "real". Like those aren't actual games. It's a show.

    I know it's important for some people to maintain the illusion that it is a real game, but come on.

    If you want some authentic D&D stories, go to YouTube and watch Puffin Forest. It's fun because you don't watch him actually play the game. He just tells stories about playing the game.
    Why do we make such a distinction between watching Puffin Forest (which I do) and watching Critical Role? Seems unnecessarily elitist to start gatekeeping how real our fantasy games need to be. Point is that people are inspired to play by both, so why is Critical Role more Badwrongfun?
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    I think it's largely a matter of production values.

    Our TTRPG sessions are usually 5-6 guys sitting around the couches and coffee table of the FLGS, a box of Tim's doughnuts to one side, a battlemat with some rough outlines scrawled, random bits and bobs to indicate monsters and PCs, and a couple of game books being passed around. character sheets come in various forms, from finely crafted 3rd party download to "i tore out pages from a notebook, here is some chicken scrawls".

    the "quality" of RP can, and will, vary wildly: from 1st person, in character with voice to "my dude checks out the house, do i see anything?"

    Plus we occasionally talk over each other, read our game books or check our phones for not-game stuff when we're not on scene for a while.

    I would like to think we're an average group, and it don't make for good YouTube content.

    I wouldn't call what the CR people are doing the TTRPG equivalent of the WWE, but I'm certain that they are fully aware that there is a need to put on a show, and it influences their play.
    ‐---------------------
    Puffin's recounting of his sessions is a different beast from Critical Role since it's in a more digestible format. a 12 minute story about the time the PCs did a thing with some visual aids is a lot easier for most gamers to absorb then multiple sessions in an ongoing story.

    compare that to how I can consume a 12 episode anime in ~4 to 5 hours. which is usually one or two story arcs done to completion.

    that's like... 1 -1.5 episodes of critical role's ongoing story.

    It's a different format meant for similar but still different audiences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    Why do we make such a distinction between watching Puffin Forest (which I do) and watching Critical Role? Seems unnecessarily elitist to start gatekeeping how real our fantasy games need to be. Point is that people are inspired to play by both, so why is Critical Role more Badwrongfun?
    It's not badwrongfun, but a lot people get their hackles up when you don't believe CR is a "real game". It's a show. They are acting for the audience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    It's not badwrongfun, but a lot people get their hackles up when you don't believe CR is a "real game". It's a show. They are acting for the audience.
    Yep, and fun to watch isn't always fun to play (which I suspect is the reason Titansgrave was clearly edited down quite a bit*). Really most of the badwrongfun comes from the small number of people who got into roleplaying via CR and expect all games to be like that, while a lot of other people don't get the fun of watching a game. Me, is rather play Ultima 1 than watch Critical Role, but people who like CR aren't wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    It's not badwrongfun, but a lot people get their hackles up when you don't believe CR is a "real game". It's a show. They are acting for the audience.
    Which is kinda what I meant when I said it felt more like watching a performance of playing an RPG, rather than people playing an RPG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Which is kinda what I meant when I said it felt more like watching a performance of playing an RPG, rather than people playing an RPG.
    ....thats the weirdest complaint I've ever heard:

    "oh its not a REAL fake fantasy story of heroes performed by 4-6 people, its a FAKE fake fantasy of heroes performed by 4-6 people, about a hobby thats all about putting on a performance of being another character, I find this problematic somehow."

    like even if its true, I don't really know how one could possibly tell the difference between the real fake and fake fake, and even if it is true, isn't that just a demonstration of how great a roleplayer they are if they can roleplay a character while also roleplaying a person roleplaying a character for a show so they can make money off of what they love? thats like next level roleplaying there, thats not a problem, thats mastery to learn from.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2019-09-18 at 06:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    ....thats the weirdest complaint I've ever heard:

    "oh its not a REAL fake fantasy story of heroes performed by 4-6 people, its a FAKE fake fantasy of heroes performed by 4-6 people, about a hobby thats all about putting on a performance of being another character, I find this problematic somehow."

    like even if its true, I don't really know how one could possibly tell the difference between the real fake and fake fake, and even if it is true, isn't that just a demonstration of how great a roleplayer they are if they can roleplay a character while also roleplaying a person roleplaying a character for a show so they can make money off of what they love? thats like next level roleplaying there, thats not a problem, thats mastery to learn from.
    First, that assumes that all gaming is "story", and these forums have had that debate before. At best, it's a subjective preference.

    Second, the "fake" in question is this -- when you sit down at the table, is that a genuine thing you're doing with the other people at the table, or are you putting on the act/show of "gaming"? Consider any other activity... are you just sitting down to eat a bowl of soup, or putting on the show of eating a bowl of soup? Are you reading a book, or putting on the show of reading a book? Are you gaming, or putting on the show of gaming?
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-09-18 at 06:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    ....thats the weirdest complaint I've ever heard:

    "oh its not a REAL fake fantasy story of heroes performed by 4-6 people, its a FAKE fake fantasy of heroes performed by 4-6 people, about a hobby thats all about putting on a performance of being another character, I find this problematic somehow."

    like even if its true, I don't really know how one could possibly tell the difference between the real fake and fake fake, and even if it is true, isn't that just a demonstration of how great a roleplayer they are if they can roleplay a character while also roleplaying a person roleplaying a character for a show so they can make money off of what they love? thats like next level roleplaying there, thats not a problem, thats mastery to learn from.
    Matt Colville had an interesting video not long ago about a disconnect between the game, what players experience, and what an audience experiences viewing a game as entertainment. It is long, but pretty interesting (to me at least). If it interests anyone, it can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YCVHnItKuY&t=2s

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    I respect 4e for one thing in particular: it's the only WOTC edition that's fun when played in exactly the way the designers expected.

    It also gets points for abandoning Vancian magic, which would definitely be a requirement for 6e. 4e and 5e were both designed as reactions against previous editions, so hopefully this trend continues and 6e actually has some kind of vision for the future, instead of 5e's "Neu-AD&D forever".
    I came back to this thread because some things came together and you are already talking about them. Actually the first part is kind of unrelated to the main idea, but I do believe that 4th was the best designed edition of D&D. The fact they seemed to designing the wrong thing - a game that was simultaneously not D&D and far too much D&D - is a separate issue.

    The thing I want from 6th more than anything else: I want it to be different. 4th may have been too far and there is some value in a 3.5-lite. But really I don't want 5.5e. I want them to mix it up and make some significant change. Maybe they pull out some of the changes they were going to make but backed out of (given a buffer edition between 4th maybe that will help). Building off of what Elves said, maybe they overhaul spell casting or relegate Vancian magic to one or two magic users. Maybe they reduce how levels order your abilities. In a way it does matter what, as long as they try new ideas and some of them are good, that will get me more excited about 6th than just patching 5th.

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