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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's both - if the terms are "unreasonable" the creature can still refuse no matter what you roll, so your will is far from paramount.
    The same applies to spells like dominate, just like offering bribes and the like make a creature more amenable to be commanded, unreasonable commands have a backward effect to the point where it becomes impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The bolded bit does not follow from anything else you're saying. Your check is modified by "bribes, offers, and the like" - articulating all of that takes longer than an instant. Worse still, it's an opposed check, so you're not only arguing that presenting your side only takes an instant, you're arguing that the creature is doing the same. You don't control NPCs, the GM does, and if they say the creature's check represents longer than a single round of time, you're hosed from using this tactic entirely.
    It's entirely consistent, because as I said, articulating your side is not a part of the command, the ultimate command is the demand to agree to the terms you articulated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    The same applies to spells like dominate, just like offering bribes and the like make a creature more amenable to be commanded, unreasonable commands have a backward effect to the point where it becomes impossible.
    Dominate uses a will save, not an opposed check. Saving throws are explicitly not an action, i.e. take no time - ability checks, like skill checks, depend on the situation. They are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    It's entirely consistent, because as I said, articulating your side is not a part of the command, the ultimate command is the demand to agree to the terms you articulated.
    That would be the reading I fundamentally disagree with, yes.

    And again - even if you try to argue that stating your side takes no time, you cannot control the monster doing the same. Opposed checks are not controlled by one side. There are plenty of other spells you can use to boost your check result.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And again - even if you try to argue that stating your side takes no time, you cannot control the monster doing the same. Opposed checks are not controlled by one side. There are plenty of other spells you can use to boost your check result.
    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with either position, but I don't think this is right. If someone is trying to do something to you (grapple you, or force your service under magical compelment) then I don't think you can just shrug and hold off the effect until you're ready to make your check.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with either position, but I don't think this is right. If someone is trying to do something to you (grapple you, or force your service under magical compelment) then I don't think you can just shrug and hold off the effect until you're ready to make your check.
    You're not "holding your action." Grapple has a well-defined action cost on both sides (i.e. standard.) The opposed charisma check during a binding doesn't, but I strongly believe it's certainly more than 6 seconds for each party.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're not "holding your action." Grapple has a well-defined action cost on both sides (i.e. standard.) The opposed charisma check during a binding doesn't, but I strongly believe it's certainly more than 6 seconds for each party.
    Well, I didn't say anything about actions as such.

    And, like I said, I don't disagree with you on your position. But you were supporting your position, that it takes longer, by saying one party of the opposed check could... take longer. That seems a bit circular.

    But it doesn't invalidate the rest of your arguments.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Well, I didn't say anything about actions as such.

    And, like I said, I don't disagree with you on your position. But you were supporting your position, that it takes longer, by saying one party of the opposed check could... take longer. That seems a bit circular.

    But it doesn't invalidate the rest of your arguments.
    Actually, Psyren is correct here. What if a bound devil decides to seek clarification on your point and begins asking a series of questions to clarify specific details? He could also seek amendments to make the deal more palatable, or refuse specific conditions.

    Like multiple people have said, this is not a 1 party affair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Actually, Psyren is correct here. What if a bound devil decides to seek clarification on your point and begins asking a series of questions to clarify specific details? He could also seek amendments to make the deal more palatable, or refuse specific conditions.

    Like multiple people have said, this is not a 1 party affair.
    The devil can ask that all he wants, but he's not in control of the matter. You don't have to negotiate or make the terms more agreeable, but doing so gives you a bonus on the charisma check. You can literally just say "No to all of the above, agree to the terms now" and the cha check happens whether he likes the deal or not. Negotiations are optional, and are not part of the charisma check itself, but rather apply a modifier to the charisma check when it does happen.

    Planar binding is not about making deals, it's about making demands. If you want deals, planar ally is the spell you're looking for.
    Last edited by Crake; 2019-09-20 at 04:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Well, I didn't say anything about actions as such.
    You didn't, but you mentioned timing, which actions measure. The Charisma check is untimed, thus it's up to the GM to ultimately determine. And while a PC can certainly argue for themselves (successfully or not), they have zero standing to do so for an NPC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    The devil can ask that all he wants, but he's not in control of the matter. You don't have to negotiate or make the terms more agreeable, but doing so gives you a bonus on the charisma check. You can literally just say "No to all of the above, agree to the terms now"
    Unreasonable, instafail.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Unreasonable, instafail.
    You are allowing your personal definition "unreasonable" to dictate the entire limits of the spell.

    Let me explain as plainly as possible what is happening here when you cast this spell: you are luring an extra dimensional creature into a trap where it is held forever.

    Yes. Forever.
    It is imprisoned in the circle permanently.

    Do you see the duration line of this spell? Instantaneous.
    Quote, "The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom."

    Yes, there are a couple of different options for escape. If you seal the circle against both dimensional travel and the spell resistance of the creature, then once per day it can attempt an opposed Charisma check against you to break free. It is very easy to reach a point against certain creatures where it is impossible for them to succeed at this check.

    You are under no obligation to ever talk to the creature again after that point. You can leave it there. Quote, "If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare."

    If you decide you want the creature to perform a service, quote, "You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward." Perhaps. You are under no obligation, per the limits of the spell, to offer it anything. The subsequent Charisma check is an attempt to overwhelm the creature's free will with your own force of personality. If the creature cannot break free, then you are free to repeat your demands once every day, forever, until it caves.

    Your subjective definition of "unreasonable" has no bearing whatsoever on these negotiations. That's entirely up to the DM because he is the one that knows the personality of the creature. And there are few things seem unreasonable when the alternative is staying locked in a room by yourself for eternity.

    Mechanically? Yes, planar binding is an absurdly broken spell. It should never be approached in a purely mechanical manner. There should always be story consequences for using this spell, and they should always change with each and every new creature. Yes there is plenty of advice for making as fool-proof a binding as possible but it is never absolute. There is always a loophole. And always a point where a creature will say, "**** it. When this is over I'm coming for you and I don't care what you threaten me with."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    You are allowing your personal definition "unreasonable" to dictate the entire limits of the spell.
    Except I'm not limiting the whole spell. You can absolutely take time to dictate reasonable terms which the entity will then have to engage with, and therefore has a chance to lose. What you can't do is set no terms so that you can cast a +20 spell to let you do an end-run around the spell's provisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Except I'm not limiting the whole spell. You can absolutely take time to dictate reasonable terms which the entity will then have to engage with, and therefore has a chance to lose. What you can't do is set no terms so that you can cast a +20 spell to let you do an end-run around the spell's provisions.
    What provisions?

    Planar binding isn't a negotiation unless you, the caster, wish it to be.

    This is spelled out very clearly in the text. You compel the creature to perform a service by describing what you want it to do. That's it. "Be my unquestioning slave for the duration of the spell," is well within bounds and takes much less than six seconds to say. The trapped creature does not get to dictate terms during a planar binding. At all. You are not asking for favors. You are compelling submission with the Charisma check.

    Once again, yes, this is an incredibly powerful effect given the possible results. This is why it's emphasized over and over again how incredibly dangerous the consequences of doing this can be for the caster.
    Last edited by Doctor Awkward; 2019-09-21 at 12:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    What provisions?
    The need to roll at all, and the fact that "unreasonable commands are never agreed to."

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    The subsequent Charisma check is an attempt to overwhelm the creature's free will with your own force of personality. If the creature cannot break free, then you are free to repeat your demands once every day, forever, until it caves.
    I'm glad someone understands how the spell works
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    If the original caster is dead, what charisma value do you use for the opposed roll if the creature tries to escape?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    If the original caster is dead, what charisma value do you use for the opposed roll if the creature tries to escape?
    Presumably you'd use the caster's charisma score at the time of casting the spell, since that is what set the "strength" of the spell at the time. Even if the caster's cha score goes down later, the spell was cast with that level of charisma, and so the DC shouldn't change.
    Last edited by Crake; 2019-09-21 at 05:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    You are allowing your personal definition "unreasonable" to dictate the entire limits of the spell.

    Let me explain as plainly as possible what is happening here when you cast this spell: you are luring an extra dimensional creature into a trap where it is held forever.

    Yes. Forever.
    It is imprisoned in the circle permanently.

    Do you see the duration line of this spell? Instantaneous.
    Quote, "The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom."

    Yes, there are a couple of different options for escape. If you seal the circle against both dimensional travel and the spell resistance of the creature, then once per day it can attempt an opposed Charisma check against you to break free. It is very easy to reach a point against certain creatures where it is impossible for them to succeed at this check.

    You are under no obligation to ever talk to the creature again after that point. You can leave it there. Quote, "If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare."

    If you decide you want the creature to perform a service, quote, "You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward." Perhaps. You are under no obligation, per the limits of the spell, to offer it anything. The subsequent Charisma check is an attempt to overwhelm the creature's free will with your own force of personality. If the creature cannot break free, then you are free to repeat your demands once every day, forever, until it caves.

    Your subjective definition of "unreasonable" has no bearing whatsoever on these negotiations. That's entirely up to the DM because he is the one that knows the personality of the creature. And there are few things seem unreasonable when the alternative is staying locked in a room by yourself for eternity.

    Mechanically? Yes, planar binding is an absurdly broken spell. It should never be approached in a purely mechanical manner. There should always be story consequences for using this spell, and they should always change with each and every new creature. Yes there is plenty of advice for making as fool-proof a binding as possible but it is never absolute. There is always a loophole. And always a point where a creature will say, "**** it. When this is over I'm coming for you and I don't care what you threaten me with."
    Forever? I believe you are mistaken. You may want to check magic circle.

    Once you do, you will realise how bad it is to leave it too long... you've just called a very hostile outsider with every incentive to run down the clock because LOL I AM ON THE MORTAL PLANE AND CAN (save people/ have fun/murder people) ALL I WANT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Presumably you'd use the caster's charisma score at the time of casting the spell, since that is what set the "strength" of the spell at the time. Even if the caster's cha score goes down later, the spell was cast with that level of charisma, and so the DC shouldn't change.
    There is no DC. It's an opposed ability check.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    There is no DC. It's an opposed ability check.
    The question I was replying to was with regards to the daily charisma check that the captured creature could attempt in order to escape. The DC for that charisma check is "(DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier)", +5 if you employ a calling diagram.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Forever? I believe you are mistaken. You may want to check magic circle.

    Once you do, you will realise how bad it is to leave it too long... you've just called a very hostile outsider with every incentive to run down the clock because LOL I AM ON THE MORTAL PLANE AND CAN (save people/ have fun/murder people) ALL I WANT.
    Except you can recast the circle, or employ a permanent circle via wondrous architecture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Forever? I believe you are mistaken. You may want to check magic circle.

    Once you do, you will realise how bad it is to leave it too long... you've just called a very hostile outsider with every incentive to run down the clock because LOL I AM ON THE MORTAL PLANE AND CAN (save people/ have fun/murder people) ALL I WANT.
    If you really want to go down that particular rabbit hole:

    https://imgur.com/ZjvfUPw

    But then:
    https://imgur.com/3Xt3DfQ

    So by RAW, you cannot use the magic circle spell to create your trap for a planar binding because you cannot call the creature within one round of casting the magic circle spell.
    Last edited by Doctor Awkward; 2019-09-21 at 12:05 PM. Reason: *sigh* Forgot that imgur doesn't allow direct embedding anymore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    If you really want to go down that particular rabbit hole:

    https://imgur.com/ZjvfUPw

    But then:
    https://imgur.com/3Xt3DfQ

    So by RAW, you cannot use the magic circle spell to create your trap for a planar binding because you cannot call the creature within one round of casting the magic circle spell.
    lol nice. Planar binding is truly broken then.
    Though I suppose you could read it as casting the next round means BEGIN the casting. But yeah. I could see a gm saying lol nope from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    If you really want to go down that particular rabbit hole:

    https://imgur.com/ZjvfUPw

    But then:
    https://imgur.com/3Xt3DfQ

    So by RAW, you cannot use the magic circle spell to create your trap for a planar binding because you cannot call the creature within one round of casting the magic circle spell.
    I mean, planar binding has it's own language that would presumably override the magic circle's language, as being more specific. Magic circle's language is for using it as a trap in general, while planar binding is specifically for using it as a trap with planar binding.

    After all, there are other calling spells that could theoretically be used in conjunction with a magic circle, like gate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Except you can recast the circle, or employ a permanent circle via wondrous architecture.
    Even if you carved the circle into the floor or something, it could still have straw fall on it.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Even if you carved the circle into the floor or something, it could still have straw fall on it.
    recasting the circle doesn't exactly work anyways. It's trapped in the old circle, not the new one, and nothing in the spell suggests it's renewable. In fact, it pretty much states it isn't by saying "the binding must be cast within 1 round."
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I mean, planar binding has it's own language that would presumably override the magic circle's language, as being more specific. Magic circle's language is for using it as a trap in general, while planar binding is specifically for using it as a trap with planar binding.

    After all, there are other calling spells that could theoretically be used in conjunction with a magic circle, like gate

    I would personally say so, but the technical issue is that because planar binding directly references the magic circle spell when describing the only viable method through which the magical trap for the creature can be constructed, it is therefore relying on on the text in magic circle to supply the specifics for how the trap works and what the rules are for using it. Everything else in planar binding is strictly rules for what you can do after the creature is trapped. Unless this was addressed in a web article or Dragon Magazine material that I haven't seen, I'm content to call this a legitimate rules dysfunction that must be hand-waved away because otherwise planar binding cannot function as written.

    But this is a little outside the scope of the threat.


    Speaking of hand-waving however, the bottom line is that, once a creature is trapped, if you wish to compel service you must succeed on an opposed Charisma check.

    Can you Take 10 on this check?
    Per the rules, the Take 10 rules that apply to skill checks also apply to ability checks. Those rules state you may Take 10 any time you are not facing threats or distractions. The fact that there is a potentially catastrophic result for a critical failure on this particular check is irrelevant for Take 10, as you can face similar such results for failing many other skill checks, such as Disable Device, Balancing on a ledge, Climbing a cliff, Swimming across a perfectly calm moat, Diplomacy to prevent an Unfriendly NPC from going hostile towards you, Craft (alchemy) to mix up some high explosives, and so on. If you rule that the penalty for a natural 1 on a planar binding Charisma check constitutes a "threat" that bars you from using Take 10, then you would likewise be unable to Take 10 in all of those similar moderate-to-high-risk circumstances for which the rule was clearly designed: "purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10)."

    The rules do likewise define in other places what does constitute a threat and what can serve as a distraction. If you are free from these things, then you may Take 10 on any check unless the particular check specifically forbids it (such as Use Magic Device).

    So by RAW, yes, you may Take 10 on your Charisma check to compel service from a creature called with planar binding, but in doing so you run the risk that the opposing creature might not and you must wait another day to try again. This rule applies in reverse and you could easily be faced with a creature that you lose to if they also Take 10.


    If in your games you always want that immense element of risk associated with planar binding negotiations to be in place, then it's perfectly reasonable to forbid your player from Taking 10 on this check. I probably wouldn't even blink at such a house-rule were I in that game, but it is still a house-rule.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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