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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What is the rules definition for "threatened or distracted?"
    Threatened

    Distracted.

    For general rules purposes, a "distraction" is any outside effect that might inhibit your ability to focus on the task at hand, whether said task is a skill check, ability check, casting a spell, or being in melee combat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    Clearly wrong/incomplete since they describe "combat" as a qualifting circumstance. You can be in combat without being flanked. Try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Agreed. Those arguing that you should allow a "take 10" are basically arguing "I should be allowed to use one of the most absurdly broken spells in the game with absolutely zero risk, and then I should be allowed to game the system to guarantee success."
    I would shut this down hard.
    Given that Surge of Fortune exists, and that there are ways to get spells across class lists (whether that's getting the Planar Binding line on a Divine caster, or Surge of Fortune on an Arcane caster) it's still possible to arrange essentially 0 risk, even without the ability to take ten. It's just a matter of "how much in the way of build resources and daily resources will it require?"
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2019-09-11 at 09:21 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Given that Surge of Fortune exists, and that there are ways to get spells across class lists (whether that's getting the Planar Binding line on a Divine caster, or Surge of Fortune on an Arcane caster) it's still possible to arrange essentially 0 risk, even without the ability to take ten. It's just a matter of "how much in the way of build resources and daily resources will it require?"
    Yeah, I was gonna bring up surge of fortune as a counterpoint to that argument too. Even if you just get a scroll of it and UMD it, it's still generally an easy win for the wizard, especially if combined with moment of prescience. If you're gonna deny a player some kind of reliability by denying them the ability to take 10, they'll just find it elsewhere.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Given that skill and ability checks do not usually fail on a 1, I would consider any situation where they explicitly do to be special and thus considered "threatened." No taking 10.
    This. I was about to post that I agreed that Take 10 should be allowed, but this is on point. Ability checks do not automatically fail on a 1, but this does, and with metaphysical consequences to boot: A roll of a 1 on the Charisma check does not just 'fail' the negotiation, it breaks a mystical binding created by a spell. That is far enough outside the bounds of the usual rules for making an ability check that allowing it to be outside the technical rule for taking 10 makes sense.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Given that Surge of Fortune exists, and that there are ways to get spells across class lists (whether that's getting the Planar Binding line on a Divine caster, or Surge of Fortune on an Arcane caster) it's still possible to arrange essentially 0 risk, even without the ability to take ten. It's just a matter of "how much in the way of build resources and daily resources will it require?"
    Given nat 1 auto fails and immediately releases the subject, the risk willnever equal zero.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Given nat 1 auto fails and immediately releases the subject, the risk willnever equal zero.
    Depends.

    If I summon a Medium Elemental, then it's not a meaningful threat. Especially if I'm a Wizard with Contingent Teleport.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Depends.

    If I summon a Medium Elemental, then it's not a meaningful threat. Especially if I'm a Wizard with Contingent Teleport.
    Yes, but the binding itself has failed. And, while it may not threaten your person, it could theoretically escape your lab and do substantial damage elsewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Right. And if your opposition has cha mod of +6, and you have +16... "I take ten and win." I, personally, do not like the thought of that.
    Why? The character is just that good. That's the feature of Take 10 where your character can be such an expert at something even putting in average effort achieves success. In terms of Planar Binding it would autowork on low HD planar beings because you're that awesome a spellcaster.

    Edit: That's just to mean I don't find autosuccess on a Take 10 to be a bad thing if Take 10 is allowed. At the moment I'm not advocating for or against as to whether Take 10 is permissible in this case. I'm undecided for now.
    Last edited by Pex; 2019-09-12 at 12:54 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Yes, but the binding itself has failed. And, while it may not threaten your person, it could theoretically escape your lab and do substantial damage elsewhere.
    This feels like a stretch, since it assumes the character has a lab or cares about damage done elsewhere.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    This feels like a stretch, since it assumes the character has a lab or cares about damage done elsewhere.
    A good dm will make you care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    I'd say no to taking 10.

    Yes, there are plenty of ways to ensure that even on a Nat 1, you can succeed (Surge of Fortune, Luck feats). However, these all take resources. Being able to Take 10 is free.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    A good dm will make you care.
    Nah, I don't want to care.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Nah, I don't want to care.
    The fire elemental escapes into the town setting fire to several houses and kills 2 people. Investigators have tracked it down as having come from your tower. You are accosted by 4 constables with an arrest warrant. What do you do?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    The fire elemental escapes into the town setting fire to several houses and kills 2 people. Investigators have tracked it down as having come from your tower. You are accosted by 4 constables with an arrest warrant. What do you do?
    I told you I didn't want to care. By creating this storyline anyway, this is an example of bad DMing.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    I told you I didn't want to care. By creating this storyline anyway, this is an example of bad DMing.
    Actions have consequences. You unleashed an uncontrolled extraplanar entity on the genera populace. Society tends to frown on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    I told you I didn't want to care. By creating this storyline anyway, this is an example of bad DMing.
    "I want to do whatever I want with no consequences" is bad player behavior. I'd sooner ban the spell entirely at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Actions have consequences. You unleashed an uncontrolled extraplanar entity on the genera populace. Society tends to frown on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "I want to do whatever I want with no consequences" is bad player behavior. I'd sooner ban the spell entirely at that point.
    Both false dichotomies.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Given nat 1 auto fails and immediately releases the subject, the risk willnever equal zero.
    If I am using Surge of Fortune, I don't actually roll the die, so there can be no 1. If I take 10, likewise.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Both false dichotomies.
    You will need to actually explain that, not just fire some sort of fallacy cannon and run away.

    Please also remember the Fallacy Fallacy: an argument containing what you percieve to be a fallacy does not automatically invalidate it or validate your counterargument. You must build a solid position yourself.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Neither of those were false dichotomies.

    A false dichotomy requires the presentation of a set of outcomes as the only possible outcomes, when that is not true.
    "You're either part of the solution or part of the problem." is a false dichotomy.

    "Actions have consequences" is not a dichotomy at all. The following "You unleashed an uncontrolled extraplanar entity on the genera populace. Society tends to frown on that." is a possible outcome and a generalization statement, but is not presented as the only possible outcome of the situation.

    ""I want to do whatever I want with no consequences" is bad player behavior. I'd sooner ban the spell entirely at that point." is also not a dichotomy. It is a presentation of an individual's opinion.


    Either way, getting off-topic here.

    The main crux of the situation is, does the Natural 1 outcome of the Charisma check mean that the Check is 'threatened' or 'Distracted', preventing a Take 10.


    Yes, resources can be spent to remove the threat of a Natural 1. But special circumstances like that cannot be used to evaluate the base situation.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Actions have consequences. You unleashed an uncontrolled extraplanar entity on the genera populace. Society tends to frown on that.
    In all honesty, a society that can't put down a medium elemental before it kills several guys probably would have a hard time threatening a wizard at the level it can cast planar binding.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBlades View Post
    In all honesty, a society that can't put down a medium elemental before it kills several guys probably would have a hard time threatening a wizard at the level it can cast planar binding.
    The local magical police force might take a minute or two to respond, in the same way firefighters might require time to respond to a fire while waiting to be called out. That doesn't mean they can't respond rather forcefully though.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    The local magical police force might take a minute or two to respond, in the same way firefighters might require time to respond to a fire while waiting to be called out. That doesn't mean they can't respond rather forcefully though.
    Firefighters don't have divination magic.

    Planar Biding is a 6th level spell. Divination is a 4th level spell, Contact Other Plane is a 5th level spell, to just give 2 basic examples. If your job is 'magical policeman' you should constantly be divining stuff left and right to prevent threats (it's the magical equivalent of police patrols on the street). If you are surprised by a low CR magical creature that just walked to an area under your protection and killed some guys then you're likely not a threat to a wizard able to cast 6th level spells because you either lack enough magic or you don't know how to properly use it.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBlades View Post
    Firefighters don't have divination magic.

    Planar Biding is a 6th level spell. Divination is a 4th level spell, Contact Other Plane is a 5th level spell, to just give 2 basic examples. If your job is 'magical policeman' you should constantly be divining stuff left and right to prevent threats (it's the magical equivalent of police patrols on the street). If you are surprised by a low CR magical creature that just walked to an area under your protection and killed some guys then you're likely not a threat to a wizard able to cast 6th level spells because you either lack enough magic or you don't know how to properly use it.

    Department of Magical Pre-crime.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBlades View Post
    Firefighters don't have divination magic.

    Planar Biding is a 6th level spell. Divination is a 4th level spell, Contact Other Plane is a 5th level spell, to just give 2 basic examples. If your job is 'magical policeman' you should constantly be divining stuff left and right to prevent threats (it's the magical equivalent of police patrols on the street). If you are surprised by a low CR magical creature that just walked to an area under your protection and killed some guys then you're likely not a threat to a wizard able to cast 6th level spells because you either lack enough magic or you don't know how to properly use it.
    1) Divination is very far from perfect. This meme of "divination magic exists, therefore society can anticipate/prevent anything bad from happening" is nonsense.

    2) Even if Divination were this perfect, you're forgetting the obvious implication - that it would mean they'll detect you're about to screw up your binding and get innocent people hurt instead. All you've changed is when they kick your door in, e.g. when you have the powdered silver and chalk in hand to begin drawing your circle. This kind of divination doesn't save your conjurer from consequences, all it saves you from is due process.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    1) Divination is very far from perfect. This meme of "divination magic exists, therefore society can anticipate/prevent anything bad from happening" is nonsense.

    2) Even if Divination were this perfect, you're forgetting the obvious implication - that it would mean they'll detect you're about to screw up your binding and get innocent people hurt instead. All you've changed is when they kick your door in, e.g. when you have the powdered silver and chalk in hand to begin drawing your circle. This kind of divination doesn't save your conjurer from consequences, all it saves you from is due process.
    1) I never said it was. All I said is that, if you can't divine and prepare against literally the most obvious attack possible (a monster simply walking in in broad daylight) in your area of expertise, then you are likely not a threat to a high level wizard. For example, consider a 7th level cleric or a 9th level wizard running a few castings of Divination respectively Contact Other Plane weekly, and asking whether the town/area they are protecting would be under attack in the coming week. If the answer is yes, go from there with more detailed research. If you can't even manage that much (which means you lack access to both divine spells of 4th level and arcane spells of 5th level), what chances do you have going against a wizard who can cast at least 6th level spells? Generally none whatsoever. I'm not trying to say every place in the world would have that kind of protection. What I'm trying to say is that, IMO, it's hard to have a scenario where a community somehow doesn't have the resources for even basic magical prevention and protection, but at the same time has the resources to track and take down a high level wizard after the fact.

    2) The more information you want to gather about a specific event in the future, the more resources you have to expend. It's a long way from 'tomorrow something bad will happen, better be on alert' to, 'tomorrow around noon a Fire Elemental will walk into town' and from there to 'tomorrow, at precisely 10.47 AM, Will the Wizard will start binding a Fire Elemental, the binding will go wrong, and this will result in the Fire Elemental walking into town and killing 2 guys'. In a highly magical society (think Tippyverse) I expect stuff like that to happen fairly regularly, and as such, I expect anyone who tries to do anything even remotely questionable to take at least basic anti-Divination measures.
    Last edited by LordBlades; 2019-09-12 at 06:07 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Clearly wrong/incomplete since they describe "combat" as a qualifting circumstance. You can be in combat without being flanked. Try again.
    Nothing in this entire post makes sense.

    Try again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akkristor View Post
    The main crux of the situation is, does the Natural 1 outcome of the Charisma check mean that the Check is 'threatened' or 'Distracted', preventing a Take 10.
    That "penalty for failure" clause is for the Take 20 rule, which assumes your character repeatedly attempts a task over and over until they perfectly succeed, and the character in question incurs any penalties for failure until the check is completed (which takes several minutes).

    This clause is not present when Taking 10, which is explicitly only a single attempt. It can be used on any check which does not expressly prohibit it, such as in the case of Use Magic Device.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Given nat 1 auto fails and immediately releases the subject, the risk willnever equal zero.
    I take it you don't know what the spell surge of fortune does, so allow me to enlighten you: "At any point before the spell expires, you can channel some of its remaining power into a single instant of perfect fortune as an immediate action. The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power."

    So... no chance of a natural 1 there. Zero risk.
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    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
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