The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 114
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I take it you don't know what the spell surge of fortune does, so allow me to enlighten you: "At any point before the spell expires, you can channel some of its remaining power into a single instant of perfect fortune as an immediate action. The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power."

    So... no chance of a natural 1 there. Zero risk.

    Yes, but if you use Surge of Fortune, there is no roll. You basically "Take Natural-20". You can't Take 10 on the roll.

    IF you roll, there is a risk of Natural 1.

    Surge of Fortune makes the entire question moot, and is outside the topic of discussion.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    Nothing in this entire post makes sense.

    Try again.
    You linked two irrelevant entries that happen to be similarly named to the clause in the take 10 rule and declared victory. You'd have known they were irrelevant if you actually read the rule. So, back to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBlades View Post
    1) I never said it was. All I said is that, if you can't divine and prepare against literally the most obvious attack possible (a monster simply walking in in broad daylight) in your area of expertise, then you are likely not a threat to a high level wizard.
    I'm not saying they couldn't prevent any of it with divination. But it's still not perfect. And so the law is punitive as well as preventative.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akkristor View Post
    Yes, but if you use Surge of Fortune, there is no roll. You basically "Take Natural-20". You can't Take 10 on the roll.

    IF you roll, there is a risk of Natural 1.

    Surge of Fortune makes the entire question moot, and is outside the topic of discussion.
    Not really. One of the complaints of taking ten was that it makes auto-success on something that shouldn't have the option possible (see one such by Calthropstu).

    Surge of Fortune demonstrates that it's possible to "game the system" to that point regardless of whether or not you're specifically permitted to take ten. This makes Surge of Fortune a form of counterpoint - the flaw already exists anyway, all taking ten does is change the resource requirements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akkristor View Post
    I'd say no to taking 10.

    Yes, there are plenty of ways to ensure that even on a Nat 1, you can succeed (Surge of Fortune, Luck feats). However, these all take resources. Being able to Take 10 is free.
    ... but even with taking ten, it's still not free. The critter can still roll, which means in order for taking ten to guarantee success, you need to invest enough resources into the check (which you're still making when taking ten, even if you're not rolling it) such that you've got a modifier on your check of at least ten points above the target's. Against an Elemental (Cha-11, +0 mod), that's easy. Against a Pit Fiend (Cha-26, +8 mod), that's much harder. It's expected to be a much lower build resource cost to get a +10 modifier over the target's (what you need if take-10 is permitted) than it is to get a suitable combination together such that you can manipulate rolls (what you need if take-10 is not permitted). There's still costs involved if you want to make taking ten meaningfully useful. It's noticeably less expensive to guarantee success if you can take ten, but there's still costs involved.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Orc in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2007

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Per the title. The Charisma check is opposed. The spell says that if you roll a 1, the creature breaks free and attacks you. Are either of these enough to prevent me Taking 10?
    Yes, you may take 10. The charisma check takes place after the trap has been prepared and the binding already cast and the target already has had opportunity to resist the spell. The creature is now stuck there in your trap and you get to try as many times as you like, and for as long as you like, to convince it to do what you want it to do. You can bribe, intimidate, or whatever you care to do to improve your ability to do that convincing - including Taking 10 so as to AVOID the possibility of rolling a 1 and having your captive get free. You have ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD to prepare any and all attempts at convincing the captive. You are not in combat. You are not threatened - as the game defines being threatened.

    You COULD have a DM who decides that because of what you're asking the captive to do it will refuse no matter HOW convincingly you argue or intimidate, but as long as it's open to BEING convinced (even if it's going to be super-difficult) and you AREN'T actually under time pressure or in combat, then _I_ certainly don't see that there should be any reason to object to Taking 10 on the check.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I take it you don't know what the spell surge of fortune does, so allow me to enlighten you: "At any point before the spell expires, you can channel some of its remaining power into a single instant of perfect fortune as an immediate action. The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power."

    So... no chance of a natural 1 there. Zero risk.
    So yeah... I am going let you know something... that spell doesn't work.
    It might work in combat or quick tasks, but negotiating a contract or performing research or magic crafting... anything that takes longer than 1 round per level, that spell auto fails. So yeah, kinda talked yourself out of relevance on that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Doctor Awkward's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Collegeville, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You linked two irrelevant entries that happen to be similarly named to the clause in the take 10 rule and declared victory. You'd have known they were irrelevant if you actually read the rule. So, back to you.
    ...Irrelevant? Why, because it's found somewhere else in the same rule book?
    Do you still not understand how the rules work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rules Compendium, page 5, "Adjudication"
    Let’s face it: No set of rules can cover every possible
    circumstance in a game meant to mimic life in a fantasy
    world. The rules clear up as much as possible, assuming the
    DM can make a judgment in a situation that the rules don’t
    cover or that they don’t cover adequately. DMs are expected
    to use knowledge of existing rules, common sense, realworld
    knowledge, and a sense of fun when dealing with
    such special cases. Knowledge of the existing rules is key,
    because the rules often do cover similar cases or combine
    to make such judgment calls unnecessary.
    Resident Mad Scientist...

    "It's so cool!"

    Spoiler: Contests
    Show
    VC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
    VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
    VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    ...Irrelevant? Why, because it's found somewhere else in the same rule book?
    Do you still not understand how the rules work?
    I do, do you?

    "Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10."

    So by your definition, you're only in combat when something is in melee range of you or when you have to make a concentration check? Do you see why your reading makes no sense yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I do, do you?

    "Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10."

    So by your definition, you're only in combat when something is in melee range of you or when you have to make a concentration check? Do you see why your reading makes no sense yet?
    I doubt he even realizes that the two of you are in a form of combat right now. Discussions, debates, arguments, negotiations, sex, strategy meetings...

    none of these benefit from taking ten. Because they ARE combats in and of themselves. Just as you can't take 10 on a diplomacy roll to influence someone, the same reasons apply here.

    You don't get another chance and there are always things you can't account for. So take as long as you want, study all you want. Doesn't change a damn thing. Especially since we are talking about sentient beings. Every single one will require a different approach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Doctor Awkward's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Collegeville, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I do, do you?

    "Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10."

    So by your definition, you're only in combat when something is in melee range of you or when you have to make a concentration check? Do you see why your reading makes no sense yet?
    I don't have a definition of combat. The rules do. I just happen to agree with them.

    And no, it's the book's definition you are only threatened when an armed opponent is in melee range. Which is the same definition being used in the sentence you keep quoting. Distractions are variously defined elsewhere and are pretty dependent on task you are currently doing: vigorous motion can be a distraction. getting damaged by a spell can be a distraction. Bad weather, and so on. Hell, there's even a psionic power for it.

    I doubt he even realizes that the two of you are in a form of combat right now. Discussions, debates, arguments, negotiations, sex, strategy meetings...

    none of these benefit from taking ten. Because they ARE combats in and of themselves. Just as you can't take 10 on a diplomacy roll to influence someone, the same reasons apply here.

    You don't get another chance and there are always things you can't account for. So take as long as you want, study all you want. Doesn't change a damn thing. Especially since we are talking about sentient beings. Every single one will require a different approach.
    Sophistry.
    The game doesn't care what your philosophical definition of combat is. There are rules that spell it out for you, if you care to read them.
    Resident Mad Scientist...

    "It's so cool!"

    Spoiler: Contests
    Show
    VC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
    VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
    VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Per the linked rules, only a square can be threatened. You do not threaten all enemies that you can make a melee attack against; you "threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack." You do not provoke an AoO for taking certain actions while threatened, you provoke an AoO when "moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square." In conclusion, since the rules do not explicitly state that a creature is threatened when in a threatened square, "when your character is not being threatened" is always true and therefore never applies.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    Sophistry.
    The game doesn't care what your philosophical definition of combat is. There are rules that spell it out for you, if you care to read them.
    Not exactly. It has rules for many types of combat actually, but not all. They have rules for settling arguments and haggling, (a la opposed diplomacy rolls) forms of verbal combat, but not how long it takes for example. The system, outside physical combat, starts to fall apart.

    A man standing with a crossbow pointed at you is a threat. Just because he doesn't have melee range doesn't mean you can take 10.

    Likewise, a bomb about to blow up the dungeon makes you rush. You are threatened and know it.

    In this particular case, you are threatened with pure failure by circumstances you cannot control. You need to initiate a dialogue with a very hostile creature and convince it to help you. No amount of prep time will make this thing hate you less. On the contrary, it would likely get angrier giving you penalties.

    It also knows if it outwaits your circle, it will be freed eventually no matter what. So getting it to do something for you after pulling it from its home and trapping it is going to take some work.

    No amount of "I say it carefully" is going to help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Doctor Awkward's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Collegeville, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysiume View Post
    Per the linked rules, only a square can be threatened. You do not threaten all enemies that you can make a melee attack against; you "threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack." You do not provoke an AoO for taking certain actions while threatened, you provoke an AoO when "moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square." In conclusion, since the rules do not explicitly state that a creature is threatened when in a threatened square, "when your character is not being threatened" is always true and therefore never applies.
    Hm. good point.

    Based on that, ranks in Tumble become far more valuable. Even at level 1, a character with max-ranks and only a +1 Dex bonus can auto-succeed by Taking 10. Every two levels after that they can add an additional opponent. By the time they hit level 17 they can auto-succeed even when they are completely surrounded.
    Resident Mad Scientist...

    "It's so cool!"

    Spoiler: Contests
    Show
    VC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
    VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
    VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    And no, it's the book's definition you are only threatened when an armed opponent is in melee range.
    So if you're fighting archers or mages, you're not in combat then?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Doctor Awkward's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Collegeville, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Not exactly. It has rules for many types of combat actually, but not all.



    Quote Originally Posted by Player's Handbook, pg 48.
    Mighty swords clash, arrows hiss through the air, claws
    rip and tear and rend; these are the thrilling sounds
    of battle. D&D adventurers constantly find themselves
    embroiled in combat situations—and they
    wouldn’t have it any other way! Whether the adventurers
    must fend off a bandit ambush on a deserted road or fight
    their way out of a bugbear lair in the deepest part of a dungeon, the rules in this chapter provides an exciting way to solve any combat situation.
    Well the book I have seems fairly convinced that there are rules for only one type of combat...

    They have rules for settling arguments and haggling, (a la opposed diplomacy rolls) forms of verbal combat, but not how long it takes for example. The system, outside physical combat, starts to fall apart.
    Ah here's the problem.
    Those situations you described aren't combat. They are "encounters."

    As is stated in the Dungeon Master's Guide on page 48, the mechanics underlying the story of an adventure are ultimately composed of a series of encounters. "Each individual encounter is like its own game—with a beginning, a middle, an end, and victory conditions to determine a winner and a loser."

    Now an encounter might involve combat, and a majority of them probably do. But it can also involve nothing but skill checks, like the aforementioned diplomatic haggling. They are essentially events that are set up and scripted by the DM in which the progression and resolution are ultimately determined by the choices of the players.

    A man standing with a crossbow pointed at you is a threat. Just because he doesn't have melee range doesn't mean you can take 10.
    Arguable, but the creature inside a summoning circle can't shoot you with a crossbow, even if it does have one.

    Likewise, a bomb about to blow up the dungeon makes you rush. You are threatened and know it.
    I will concede this is an excellent argument for not attempting planar bindings inside of a dungeon that is about to blow up.

    In this particular case, you are threatened with pure failure by circumstances you cannot control.
    This is your opinion. And there are no direct statements in the rules that support this. You have formed a notion of how you think the rules should work, and allowing that to inform your interpretation of them. That's not RAW. That's the Rules As I Interpret Them And You Can't Prove I'm Wrong, So There.
    Resident Mad Scientist...

    "It's so cool!"

    Spoiler: Contests
    Show
    VC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
    VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
    VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Doctor Awkward's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Collegeville, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So if you're fighting archers or mages, you're not in combat then?
    Not if they are trapped inside of a summoning circle, no.
    Resident Mad Scientist...

    "It's so cool!"

    Spoiler: Contests
    Show
    VC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
    VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
    VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    Not if they are trapped inside of a summoning circle, no.
    The definition you linked doesn't mention a summoning circle at all. So you agree it's irrelevant then?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Jokes aside, the rules on taking 10 don't just specify being threatened. It refers to threats in general:
    Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.
    It does not, unfortunately, elaborate on what constitutes a threat. You can take 10 on an action that has consequences for failure, but you cannot take 10 if there is a threat or distraction present when you want to initiate the action. Pure RAW, I would say that you can take 10 on the charisma check. When you take the action, you are not yet threatened by the creature within the circle, much like when you take 10 on a climb check, you are not yet threatened by gravity and the ground below.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    I'm pretty sure taking a 10 for these situations is explicitly a feat or class feature.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Doctor Awkward's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Collegeville, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The definition you linked doesn't mention a summoning circle at all. So you agree it's irrelevant then?
    /picarddoublefacepalm

    Quote Originally Posted by Rules Compendium, page 5, "Adjudication"
    Let’s face it: No set of rules can cover every possible
    circumstance in a game meant to mimic life in a fantasy
    world. The rules clear up as much as possible, assuming the
    DM can make a judgment in a situation that the rules don’t
    cover or that they don’t cover adequately. DMs are expected
    to use knowledge of existing rules, common sense, realworld
    knowledge, and a sense of fun when dealing with
    such special cases. Knowledge of the existing rules is key,
    because the rules often do cover similar cases or combine
    to make such judgment calls unnecessary.
    Resident Mad Scientist...

    "It's so cool!"

    Spoiler: Contests
    Show
    VC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
    VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
    VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    /picarddoublefacepalm
    "Often" is not "always." The context of "threaten" in the take 10 rule is that it applies to far more than being within melee range of an opponent, because you can be in combat without that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crake's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    So yeah... I am going let you know something... that spell doesn't work.
    It might work in combat or quick tasks, but negotiating a contract or performing research or magic crafting... anything that takes longer than 1 round per level, that spell auto fails. So yeah, kinda talked yourself out of relevance on that one.
    You think making a demand and forcing your will on a creature takes longer than "Agree to my terms"? You can spend however long you want laying out the terms, but ultimately the charisma check is simply the final demand. Even then, you can outline a demand easily in just a single round, it may not be the most iron-bound demand that could be easily exploitable, but surge of fortune can definitely be used unless you're trying far too hard to do some sort of elaborate deal. Planar binding doesn't have to be a negotiation, it can simply be an ultimatum stated in a single sentence.
    World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
    The new Quick Vestige List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    You think making a demand and forcing your will on a creature takes longer than "Agree to my terms"? You can spend however long you want laying out the terms, but ultimately the charisma check is simply the final demand. Even then, you can outline a demand easily in just a single round, it may not be the most iron-bound demand that could be easily exploitable, but surge of fortune can definitely be used unless you're trying far too hard to do some sort of elaborate deal. Planar binding doesn't have to be a negotiation, it can simply be an ultimatum stated in a single sentence.
    Yeah... you realize that is your character committing suicide right? "Serve me forever or die..." "Sure."

    1 week later:

    "Bring me food."
    "Ok."
    "The meat tastes funny. What is it?"
    "Your wife."

    So, either you negotiate or you spend time correcting your idiotic orders to an entity you know wants to kill you. In short, sure you can shorten your negotiating time to use the spell. Either the demand imposes ridiculous penalties making the attempt auto fail or the demand gets perverted because you left a bazillion loopholes by not negotiating and explaining exactly what the demand entails.

    More likely the former with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crake's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Yeah... you realize that is your character committing suicide right? "Serve me forever or die..." "Sure."

    1 week later:

    "Bring me food."
    "Ok."
    "The meat tastes funny. What is it?"
    "Your wife."

    So, either you negotiate or you spend time correcting your idiotic orders to an entity you know wants to kill you. In short, sure you can shorten your negotiating time to use the spell. Either the demand imposes ridiculous penalties making the attempt auto fail or the demand gets perverted because you left a bazillion loopholes by not negotiating and explaining exactly what the demand entails.

    More likely the former with me.
    Well, "serve me forever" is already just incorrect, since open ended tasks only last a day/level.

    Secondly, as I noted, you don't have to negotiate. You can spend 4 hours reading out the terms of your contract, no negotiation needed, and then right at the end, you make your demand "Agree to the terms I laid out". The charisma check is only needed for that last part of the demand, not while you're laying out the terms of your contract.
    World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
    The new Quick Vestige List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Secondly, as I noted, you don't have to negotiate. You can spend 4 hours reading out the terms of your contract, no negotiation needed, and then right at the end, you make your demand "Agree to the terms I laid out". The charisma check is only needed for that last part of the demand, not while you're laying out the terms of your contract.
    I disagree with this reading - the point of the Charisma check is to convince the creature. It's the terms that need to be convincing, not merely the question at the end of them.

    And even if you go with this reading, the spell still wouldn't matter, because I would rule that "agree to this thing you'd never in a million years agree to if I weren't casting another spell to make me super-convincing for a brief instant" is an unreasonable command.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Well, "serve me forever" is already just incorrect, since open ended tasks only last a day/level.

    Secondly, as I noted, you don't have to negotiate. You can spend 4 hours reading out the terms of your contract, no negotiation needed, and then right at the end, you make your demand "Agree to the terms I laid out". The charisma check is only needed for that last part of the demand, not while you're laying out the terms of your contract.
    Negative. The check is the culmination of all of that. It comprises the presentation of the contract, the treatment of the outsider, the nature of the request itself... It's not the "instant I ask it to agree."
    A check is for how successful you are at presenting your case. That includes the aforementioned 4 hours. By the time you state "Now agree to this contract" Its mind is already made up. The spell is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ashtagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Negative. The check is the culmination of all of that. It comprises the presentation of the contract, the treatment of the outsider, the nature of the request itself... It's not the "instant I ask it to agree."
    A check is for how successful you are at presenting your case. That includes the aforementioned 4 hours. By the time you state "Now agree to this contract" Its mind is already made up. The spell is irrelevant.
    I'm with Calthropstu on this one. Spells that allow you to take 10 (or take 20) for tasks that takes a single round only are not applicable to this check, because the discussions take place over a longer time. For the same reason, they typically don't work for Craft checks. (It'd be a fairly extraordinary set of circumstances that'd prevent a day's Craft work not having an option to take 10 even without magical assistance, but you still couldn't use a single-instant-take-20 spell to help with a day's worth of Craft work.)
    Last edited by Ashtagon; 2019-09-20 at 01:36 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crake's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I disagree with this reading - the point of the Charisma check is to convince the creature. It's the terms that need to be convincing, not merely the question at the end of them.

    And even if you go with this reading, the spell still wouldn't matter, because I would rule that "agree to this thing you'd never in a million years agree to if I weren't casting another spell to make me super-convincing for a brief instant" is an unreasonable command.
    The planar binding check isn't a convince check, it's a command check. You are literally forcing your will upon the creature and compelling it to perform the service, as noted by the fact that the creature is literally incapable of going against the command (though it is capable of subverting it). Negotiations are optional, in that offering the creature something in return, or demanding it a task that it may well have done otherwise (like asking a demon to murder an entire town), make it more amenable to your demands, but ultimately "You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service" describes a demand, not a negotiation. Why else do you think it's a charisma check and not a diplomacy check? You know what else has an opposed charisma check to force someone to do something? Charm. Also charisma checks are involved in competing enchantment orders. The charisma check isn't a "how nicely did I ask", it's a "how much force behind my demand was there vs how much of a stone wall is this creature". It's literally a contest of personalities, where, if the bound creature loses, it's compelled to perform your demands. That all happens in one moment, not over the course of hours.
    World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
    The new Quick Vestige List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Ashtagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    The planar binding check isn't a convince check, it's a command check. You are literally forcing your will upon the creature and compelling it to perform the service, as noted by the fact that the creature is literally incapable of going against the command (though it is capable of subverting it). Negotiations are optional, in that offering the creature something in return, or demanding it a task that it may well have done otherwise (like asking a demon to murder an entire town), make it more amenable to your demands, but ultimately "You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service" describes a demand, not a negotiation. Why else do you think it's a charisma check and not a diplomacy check? You know what else has an opposed charisma check to force someone to do something? Charm. Also charisma checks are involved in competing enchantment orders. The charisma check isn't a "how nicely did I ask", it's a "how much force behind my demand was there vs how much of a stone wall is this creature". It's literally a contest of personalities, where, if the bound creature loses, it's compelled to perform your demands. That all happens in one moment, not over the course of hours.
    Reading the PHB version of the spell, I see...

    You may ask the creature... ...in order to bargain for its services... ...payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services... ...The bargaining takes at least one round.

    That reads more like the language of negotiation than the language of command to me.
    Last edited by Ashtagon; 2019-09-20 at 04:38 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Crake's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Reading the PHB version of the spell, I see...

    You may ask the creature... ...in order to bargain for its services... ...payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services... ...The bargaining takes at least one round.

    That reads more like the language of negotiation than the language of command to me.
    I believe, good sir, you are reading the wrong spell, that language is from planar ally.
    World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
    The new Quick Vestige List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5] Can I Take 10 on the Charisma check to agree service when Planar Binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    The planar binding check isn't a convince check, it's a command check. You are literally forcing your will upon the creature and compelling it to perform the service, as noted by the fact that the creature is literally incapable of going against the command (though it is capable of subverting it). Negotiations are optional, in that offering the creature something in return, or demanding it a task that it may well have done otherwise (like asking a demon to murder an entire town), make it more amenable to your demands, but ultimately "You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service" describes a demand, not a negotiation.
    It's both - if the terms are "unreasonable" the creature can still refuse no matter what you roll, so your will is far from paramount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Why else do you think it's a charisma check and not a diplomacy check? You know what else has an opposed charisma check to force someone to do something? Charm. Also charisma checks are involved in competing enchantment orders. The charisma check isn't a "how nicely did I ask", it's a "how much force behind my demand was there vs how much of a stone wall is this creature". It's literally a contest of personalities, where, if the bound creature loses, it's compelled to perform your demands. That all happens in one moment, not over the course of hours.
    The bolded bit does not follow from anything else you're saying. Your check is modified by "bribes, offers, and the like" - articulating all of that takes longer than an instant. Worse still, it's an opposed check, so you're not only arguing that presenting your side only takes an instant, you're arguing that the creature is doing the same. You don't control NPCs, the GM does, and if they say the creature's check represents longer than a single round of time, you're hosed from using this tactic entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •