The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
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    Default Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    So I resisted getting this game for a while for a number of reasons - reports of the initial release was very buggy, first person perspective (I get motion sick from FPS games fairly easily) and my aging computer not meeting minimum system specs - despite it being pretty much exactly what I was looking for (a more story based version of Mount and Blade, with a nod towards historical accuracy)


    This meant that the recent free weekend was basically made for me and hoo-boy. Steam reports I spent 25 hours on the game this weekend, so consider me firmly hooked.


    I'm really enjoying the effort they put into representing 15th century Bohemia - plenty of things to read in the codex, plenty of eye-candy and a fair amount of emphasis on talking your way of problems, which is supported by how they've implemented the culture (e.g. how clean and well repaired your clothes and armour are, give a bonus when talking to NPCs). Another example is that this is one of the few games where you can't read by default, which would be accurate for your character as a blacksmith's son - until you've learnt how and put some effort into reading and raising your reading skill, books just appear as a random jumble of letters.

    The game's combat system takes some getting used to - I've been told that is very much representative of the schools of fencing at the time (my personal training is from about 5,000 miles eastwards). It's somewhat reminiscent of Mount and Blade, only with more directions (9 rather than 5) and fighting anybody with a shield is very much a waiting game.
    The difficulty is also emphasised by the fact that your character, Henry, is just a commoner who's had maybe 2 or 3 sword lessons unlike in other RPGs where the protagonist is already combat proficient from the start (e.g. Skyrim). Getting jumped by two (or more) people is no laughing matter, even if you're in plate and mail.

    The game also runs quite nicely at ~40 fps with medium settings on my fairly archaic system (Phenom II x955, 8 Gb Ram, GTX 760 Ti), so it's better optimised than I was fearing. It took some mouse sensitivity tweaking at the very start of the game, but I've had no motion sickness issues.

    In my 25 hours of gameplay, I've only had 1 bug (I couldn't talk to an NPC after a quest, forcing me to kill him to progress the quest line as I couldn't find the required console commands) and 2 crashes to desktops, so most of the bugs are fixed. Unfortunately the developers made a design choice to avoid save scumming - saving outside of a bed/quest or a 'save and quit' requires an in-game item. This wouldn't be so bad if the game's stability was rock solid, but since it's not, expect to do a bit of repeating lost progress and building in regular visits to inns during gameplay to save your game in case of crashes.


    So did anybody else enjoy the free weekend? How are you finding the adventures of Henry?

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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    I got the game two weeks ago and did not much else but playing it during my 2 weeks of vacation. I finished the game on saturday with 192 hours on record.


    Needless to say, I enjoyed it quite a bit

    Regarding your fear for losing progress due to crashes: I got two crashes during my whole playthrough. So maybe this is system dependent?
    I lost more progress for getting careless: taking on multiple enemies at once and not taking it seriously and then (after getting killed) realizing that my last safe was 4 hours ago!


    Henry's growth from zero to hero is very well executed and for the most part reflected in the dialogues and npc reactions - which make the instances were it isn't reflected all the more glaring:
    Spoiler
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    The quest with Henrys childhood friends (Fritz and Mattheus in the german version) where you dress up as cumans is probably the worst offender. Henry acts absolutely clueless about cumans despite having killed at least half a dozen of them just to advance the quest. Not only he has enough experience with the looks and manners of the cumans, he is also badass enough to take on full camps of them alone.


    Sometimes it is not reflected enough:
    Spoiler
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    In one of the best questlines in the game Henry is confronted with his sins. By that time I had a body count of about 140 humans. For some of the other sins the crime statistics where used, but strangely for killing fellow human beings the 140 bodies Henry had produced were not mentioned. Only his nemesis, which he had killed by the time the quest starts, was mentioned and for which Henry expressed remorse. But if Henry is not remorseful about any killing it should be his nemesis. It is totally in character for Henry to make an exception for his nemesis!


    But these are isolated instances


    What I also really like is how diplomacy and intimidation is presented. You do not simply pass a diplomacy/intimindation check. You pass it and then Henry acts out the part! And he is really convincing!


    The quest design is stellar, and for the most part quite open.


    Regarding the combat I'm a bit on the fence.
    On the one hand it does provide an intense experience with a distinct flavour far from the usual abstractions of party based RPGs or the super-human feats of games like Witcher.
    I also like that it has a nice balance between character skill and player skill (if you suck at combat, even Strength 20, Attack 20, Defense 20, Sword 20 won't save you).

    On the other hand, I don't think system works as originally intended by the developer: there is a whole subsystem devoted to "combos" but considering how good the enemies are at blocking it is almost impossible to pull of a combo. Instead timing, footwork and ripostes are what will win a fight.

    And because KDC is a historic game the omissions (crossbows, lances, flails, REAL polearms; all quite important and widely used weapons especially in 15th century bohemia) and afterthoughts (mounted combat in general, polearms) are all the more noticeable - especially when there is Mount and Blade.

    Compared to Mount and Blade, the combat feels more involved and more "realistic", but also interesstingly less deadly. In Mount and Blade, with sufficient skill (character and player) and good equipment you can mow down hordes of npcs quite easily - but you can also die through a single blow. That pretty much never happens in KCD, and espescially the archers are of the "annoying arrows" variant.


    Last thing to be aware is that you are experiencing a vision of 15th century bohemia - a vision made through a modern lense and (sadly) a nationalistic lense. Nothing outrageous, just anachronistic.
    But I'm not a historian, that was just my impression.

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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    On the other hand, I don't think system works as originally intended by the developer: there is a whole subsystem devoted to "combos" but considering how good the enemies are at blocking it is almost impossible to pull of a combo. Instead timing, footwork and ripostes are what will win a fight.
    Feinting is a good method as well, but I'm nowhere near good enough to pull it off reliably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    And because KDC is a historic game the omissions (crossbows, lances, flails, REAL polearms; all quite important and widely used weapons especially in 15th century bohemia) and afterthoughts (mounted combat in general, polearms) are all the more noticeable - especially when there is Mount and Blade.
    Oh.

    I thought I hadn't reached far enough into the game to encounter/steal/loot those weapons (I've only just picked up a longsword through backstabbing Morcock). A bit disappointing they're not in the game... oh well, that's what mods are for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Last thing to be aware is that you are experiencing a vision of 15th century bohemia - a vision made through a modern lense and (sadly) a nationalistic lense. Nothing outrageous, just anachronistic.
    But I'm not a historian, that was just my impression.
    Medieval Eastern Europe is a bit out of my forte, so I'll defer to you on this. Do you have any further reading suggestions?

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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    I enjoyed it quite a lot, though the more I played the less I felt like continuing.

    I personally really enjoyed the archery, as someone who shoots with no sights.

    I really enjoyed the material culture; the buildings, clothing, and food. Very awesome, very authentic.

    The whole "clothing effects your reputation/stealth" system is incredible. If there's one thing that gets stolen from this game in future works, I hope it's this!

    The swordfighting was quite intriguing. I wouldn't say it was my favorite system I've seen, but I quite appreciated it.

    Besides some baffling story decisions, the thing that gradually got my goat was the aforementioned modern and nationalistic lens. It's fairly subtle, but once seen it's pretty hard to un-see. Which sucks, because they made an otherwise excellent game. (If you'd like, I can be more explicit about what bothered me. I don't want to start a flame war/tarnish your enjoyment though).

    Long story short, I'm eager to see what new titles this company produces in the future! They've got bundles of talent and an awesome mission.
    Last edited by NRSASD; 2019-09-13 at 09:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    I really do wish that more games would pay attention to what the character looks like. It's basically this game, and a small handfull of scenes in Witcher 3 where you are basically told "You can't come in here wearing that", and that's it.
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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    Quote Originally Posted by NRSASD View Post
    Besides some baffling story decisions, the thing that gradually got my goat was the aforementioned modern and nationalistic lens. It's fairly subtle, but once seen it's pretty hard to un-see. Which sucks, because they made an otherwise excellent game. (If you'd like, I can be more explicit about what bothered me. I don't want to start a flame war/tarnish your enjoyment though).
    While I'm curious (I'm not seeing anything like that yet, but I'm probably not far enough in the game), discussion of it will probably run foul of board rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I really do wish that more games would pay attention to what the character looks like. It's basically this game, and a small handfull of scenes in Witcher 3 where you are basically told "You can't come in here wearing that", and that's it.
    There's plenty of games that have a mechanical gameplay effect tied in with equipment, which vary from coincidental (heavier armours provide more defence at the cost of more weight in pretty much any game for example) to cosmetic (in the Assassin's Creed 2 line, Ezio got a cloak that marked him a friend of the Medici so guards won't chase him as hard in Florence), but I agree that I'm having trouble thinking of games where your clothing has a social interaction effect on the game.

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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    While I'm curious (I'm not seeing anything like that yet, but I'm probably not far enough in the game), discussion of it will probably run foul of board rules.
    There was an older thread that talked about this game. Here's my thoughts from it in more detail, which I find is still pretty accurate.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...0&postcount=12
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=22

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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    Quote Originally Posted by NRSASD View Post
    There was an older thread that talked about this game. Here's my thoughts from it in more detail, which I find is still pretty accurate.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...0&postcount=12
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...3&postcount=22
    Hmmm, I see what you and Zombimode were talking about now, although I agree more with your interpretation.


    Speaking on more pleasant things, I cannot for the life of me get the hang of archery. I've watched the guides and they generally say use this point about 'this far away' from the left hand's index finger knuckle, but since arrows land randomly in a fairly large circle centered around that point, I can't find the centrepoint to line up on the target.

    This leads to a bit of a vicious circle of being unable to hit anything because my archery skill is crap, but I can't level up my archery skill because I can't hit anything.

    It doesn't help that Henry has really low anchor points for a barebow archer in my opinion - when I was being trained on barebow, I was told to sight down the arrow and I used a fairly high anchor point. It would be possible to use an even higher anchor point with feather fletched arrows since you don't have to worry about the **** feather slicing your face up as with plastic fletchings (one medieval arabic archery guide I've read listed a number of different anchor points, including the tragus).

    These days I've jumped a little to the dark side and have an Olympic recurve with sights.
    Do you mind if I ask if you still shoot and if so, what type of bow and setup?

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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Hmmm, I see what you and Zombimode were talking about now, although I agree more with your interpretation.


    Speaking on more pleasant things, I cannot for the life of me get the hang of archery. I've watched the guides and they generally say use this point about 'this far away' from the left hand's index finger knuckle, but since arrows land randomly in a fairly large circle centered around that point, I can't find the centrepoint to line up on the target.

    This leads to a bit of a vicious circle of being unable to hit anything because my archery skill is crap, but I can't level up my archery skill because I can't hit anything.
    Can't speak for western archery, but I did Kyudo (japanese archery) for some years and there the basic training with actual bow+arrow is loosing arrows at a circular bundle of straw right in front of you (just far away enough you can touch it with the bow itself if you stretch your arm). This helps develop stability before shooting at a target actually far away. Only when you can reliably hit the center of the bundle of straw are you allowed to go shoot at the targets far away, and even the veterans routinely practice with the close bundle of straw as "warm up".

    No reason why you can't try it with other styles of archery, if you can't hit a distant target, then first work on hitting a close target then keep increasing the distance!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Can't speak for western archery, but I did Kyudo (japanese archery) for some years and there the basic training with actual bow+arrow is loosing arrows at a circular bundle of straw right in front of you (just far away enough you can touch it with the bow itself if you stretch your arm). This helps develop stability before shooting at a target actually far away. Only when you can reliably hit the center of the bundle of straw are you allowed to go shoot at the targets far away, and even the veterans routinely practice with the close bundle of straw as "warm up".
    I've always wanted to ask a kyudo practitioner - how do you get a consistent draw length? From the videos I've seen, it's a thumb draw to somewhere past the ear, but I can't see any anchor points.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    No reason why you can't try it with other styles of archery, if you can't hit a distant target, then first work on hitting a close target then keep increasing the distance!
    *Slaps forehead* You meant in-game...
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2019-09-15 at 02:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 15th Century murder hobos, The Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I've always wanted to ask a kyudo practitioner - how do you get a consistent draw length? From the videos I've seen, it's a thumb draw to somewhere past the ear, but I can't see any anchor points.
    You probably noticed the fancy gloves, they have a bump in the inside of the thumb that can hold the string on its own. So once the string is set you're supposed to just pull your right elbow as far away and perpendicular to the body as possible while relaxing the rest of the right arm below the elbow. Ideally the thumb will indeed end past the ear, but you only worry about moving your right elbow (besides stretching the left arm holding the bow of course), the rest of the relaxed arm flows naturally along.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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