Min-maxing Bladesinger - theorycrafting.

[Mitsu]

I would like to try playing Bladesinger so I am looking at how to min-max him to be best possible in melee combat apart from being obviously a full caster.

Since in our games race restrictions/bans are not a thing I will be easy able to play Variant Human Bladesinger with a right story behind which is not a problem.

So assuming that, let's take a look at how to make Bladesinger great in melee:

1. AC - as much as possible, stacking it everywhere.
2. Good DPR- the best tool for it I think is Shadow Blade. It's only only light and finease weapon but also magical, deals psychic damage and can be use as range weapon, even up to twice (Attack, throw, bonus action call, second attack throw) per turn. With 2 attacks per turn we can expect some solid DPR, though of course we won't match Fighter or GWM Barbarian burst/nova but we can bump that DPR a little.

So.... how to boost that damage in combat...

I was thinking about following build:

1 level of Fighter for CON proficiency. This saves us RES (CON) feat. Style: Defense for +1 AC. Also all martials weapons in case you will find some really good magic weapon that can replace Shadow Blade (which eliminates a lot of problems...)

Variant Human Feat: Sentinel. So the goal behind it is to use Shadow Blade + Mirror Image before diving into combat. Each time enemy will hit Mirror Image instead of you - you get extra attack from your reaction. That many time can net us 3 attacks per turn. Also if you fight next to your melee party member - you can also proc it from there. And good OAs.

Next two ASI will go towards INT and DEX, ending on level 9 with 18 DEX and 18 INT. With Studded Leather + BladeSong active + Defense Style you would sit on 21 AC. With Shield that is 26 AC. Not bad.

So our main strategy will be: Buff Up, Go In.

So first turn we go Bonus Action Blade Song and Action: Mirror Image. Next turn we go in using Bonus Action to call Shadow Blade.

We are still full caster so we can always spice things up with Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern etc.

The whole build is just a first concept I got in mind.

How would you min-max Bladesinger?

[Dork_Forge]

I would like to try playing Bladesinger so I am looking at how to min-max him to be best possible in melee combat apart from being obviously a full caster.

Since in our games race restrictions/bans are not a thing I will be easy able to play Variant Human Bladesinger with a right story behind which is not a problem.

So assuming that, let's take a look at how to make Bladesinger great in melee:

1. AC - as much as possible, stacking it everywhere.
2. Good DPR- the best tool for it I think is Shadow Blade. It's only only light and finease weapon but also magical, deals psychic damage and can be use as range weapon, even up to twice (Attack, throw, bonus action call, second attack throw) per turn. With 2 attacks per turn we can expect some solid DPR, though of course we won't match Fighter or GWM Barbarian burst/nova but we can bump that DPR a little.

So.... how to boost that damage in combat...

I was thinking about following build:

1 level of Fighter for CON proficiency. This saves us RES (CON) feat. Style: Defense for +1 AC. Also all martials weapons in case you will find some really good magic weapon that can replace Shadow Blade (which eliminates a lot of problems...)

Variant Human Feat: Sentinel. So the goal behind it is to use Shadow Blade + Mirror Image before diving into combat. Each time enemy will hit Mirror Image instead of you - you get extra attack from your reaction. That many time can net us 3 attacks per turn. Also if you fight next to your melee party member - you can also proc it from there. And good OAs.

Next two ASI will go towards INT and DEX, ending on level 9 with 18 DEX and 18 INT. With Studded Leather + BladeSong active + Defense Style you would sit on 21 AC. With Shield that is 26 AC. Not bad.

So our main strategy will be: Buff Up, Go In.

So first turn we go Bonus Action Blade Song and Action: Mirror Image. Next turn we go in using Bonus Action to call Shadow Blade.

We are still full caster so we can always spice things up with Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern etc.

The whole build is just a first concept I got in mind.

How would you min-max Bladesinger?

Afb and on mobile at the moment, but I think going for Defense is a trap option, you'd have to be wearing armor for that and you'd be gaining nothing over Mage Armor AC wise unless you got a magic armor.

If go for Dueling to bump your damage output, have you considered dual wielding with Warcaster? A whip in your off hand gives you some good options at range.

Will post a more comprehensive reply when at home.

[Corran]

I would like to try playing Bladesinger so I am looking at how to min-max him to be best possible in melee combat apart from being obviously a full caster.

I am pretty sure that the best thing you get regarding melee combat, is Tenser's transformation. So even if it come online later (at level 11), I would first optimize around it and then I would see how it would be best to get there.

To profit from TT damage wise (and given that you are in melee), you need to use twf. So carry two light finesse weapons (at least once you get this spell). The damage is ok. I don't think it's enough to make you really want to go into melee (I would want a little more incentive), but since that's your playstyle choice I digress.

Next, concentration. TT gives you con save proficiency, and you also have bladesinging, but I would probably like warcaster added there. Now, there is an argument to be made that resilient con would be better than warcaster. Resilient is generally the better feat (since you can have one hand free when not using TT, and when you are using TT you wont mind having weapons in both hands since you wont be able to cast; so there is no real need for warcaster; plus, resilient boosts the actual constitution save, which is big), and it helps with the ending effect of TT (though I don't think this is that important for a wizard). On the other hand, warcaster applies on TT while resilient does not (TT already gives you con save prof), and it allows you to use BB with your OA's (something that you might do enough whenever you use greater invisibility; which imo is the second best spell -after TT- for melee combat for a bladesinger). This comparison makes me lean more towards warcaster (though I have some reservations over how important those BB OA's will be, since we can already use BB with our action, and the effects don't stack as far as I understand it -assuming the enemy moves directly away from us; I guess the ideal scenario is to BB an enemy with no adjacent allies of ours next to it, and then use the rest of your movement to engage in melee as many enemies as possible).

Defense. You cant use shield or absorb elements when using TT, so you can only rely on your bladesinging AC, your temp hp from TT, and for anything more, on song of defense. Eh... I'd say just enough.

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TT aside, greater invisibility is the second best spell for melee combat imo. Combines very nicely with BB but also with other wizard stuff like counterspell, and combined with bladesinging and shield, it makes you a very very good AC tank. So that would be my go-to for melee combat when I couldn't or wouldn't want to spend my 6th level slot for TT.

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Both TT and greater invisibility would be my choices, so that would tempt me to play a high elf (I read that you have the option of vhuman), so that I could get elven accuracy. In which case I would aim for warcaster, elven accuracy and dex 18, int 16 at level 11.

Vhuman is also tempting, as you can really profit from the extra feat (so many other useful feats; I have alert especially in mind, which is great on wizards, particularly non-evokers, and I think most of all on bladesingers). Though that would lose me elven accuracy.

[Gignere]

I second the elf unless your DM doesn’t care for race restriction on feats since he doesn’t seem to care about racial limitations on subclasses. Elven accuracy is amazing since it’s so easy for a wizard to gain advantage.

If you dip fighter defense is definitely a trap option. Dueling is probably better but I don’t recommend the fighter dip since Bladesong is incompatible with medium or heavy armor or a shield. So why dip fighter?

[Mitsu]

Thanks for replies.

I don't like to optimize around TT because it comes very late online and we will mostly end playing at around level 12-13 maybe. Also problem with TT is that every Wizard gets it and can then be good at melee, which kinds of doesn't suit me to Bladesinger who shold be good in melee on his own. Hence why I was thinking about Sentinel - Mirror Image combo for him.

So although I can see benefits here, I would like to not spec around something that comes online only on level 11.

As for Fighter Dip- it's pretty much just for CON proficiency so I can grab some other feat that would help maximizing damge in combat with my Blade Singer, like for example Sentinel or something else. This saves me one feat too, which is quite nice when combo with Variant Human Extra feat. Basically on level 2 I have two free feats for bladesinger - RES (CON) and XXX feat.

Elven Accuracy - I am not a fan of this feat because it delays everything. Unless you start on higher levels, I don't see benefits on playing character with EA from level 1 over Variant Human. Variant Human on level 8 as Blade Singer will already have 2x +2 ASI + extra feat, which can net you 20 INT + War Caster or 20 INT + RES (CON) or 18 DEX and 18 INT with Sentinel or RES (CON) etc. Elven Accuracy was always good on paper for me but in reality coming online with full build faster with Variant Human is always better unless you expect playing level 12+ for a long time, which rarely happens in my experience.

I was thinking about Elven Accuracy of course but what I feel Bladesinger needs the most is: RES (CON) or War Caster or CON proficiency first to keep your Shadow Blade up in combat, then DEX and INT bumbs because both increase your base and bladesong AC.

With Elven Accuracy taken at level 4 I will have triple d20s on Shadow Blade, yes, but on level 8 I will have to deal with either lack or Concentration boosting feat or 16 INT and getting that concentration feat.

While as Variant Human I can still get 18 DEX and 18 INT and still get either concentration boosting feat or some other good feat like Mobile, Sentinel, Lucky or Alert.

[CTurbo]

I think Rogue is the best dip for "Min-Maxed" Bladesingers. Rogue offers some great things for a Bladesinger. Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Expertise, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, etc... depending on how far into Rogue you want to go.

Just keep in mind that Bladesingers are still full casting Wizards and any significant "dip" is going to cripple your Wizarding. If you want to be a purely melee focused "Bladesinger" I recommend making Bladesinger the dip class and taking more Fighter and/or Rogue levels instead.

Arcane Trickster is a great choice as it helps with spell slots. You need 7 levels to get more Shadow Blade slots though but Rogue 7 offers SO much good stuff it's probably worth it.
Scout Rogue is pretty neat. I like the level 3 ability to move away when approached. It kinda fits what the Bladesinger wants to do and it helps with the squishiness.
Swashbuckler is great too. You don't really NEED a high Cha. 12 would be fine. A dual wielding Bladesinger/Swashbuckler would be great in combat. You could take Warcaster and Dual Wielder for the AC bonus and use any combination of Shadow Blade/Rapier/Whip.

EK Fighter 7 or 8/Bladesinger 12 or 13 would also be great. Get 2 attacks each round with 1 of them being Booming Blade would be really good.