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Thread: Thri-kreen Non caster
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2019-09-10, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Thri-kreen Non caster
Hi all,
After 10+ years since playing Dark Sun, I've gotten the chance to make a 5e thri-kreen character again. They were quite powerful back in 2ed Dark Sun, and I'm thinking to try to make something that resembles that. The character will be lvl 11.
My idea is to make a fighter/scout/ranger style character that is good at sneaking up on the victim, and then attacking brutally, like back in the old days ;) Arcane caster is a no-go. Psionic class is allowed.
Some of my thoughts:
Wielding Glaive for reach and heavy properties and having 2 hands free for a claw/finesse attack. I have considered asking if I can wield a Glaive and shield plus a light weapon, but I doubt that will pass. I had expected the gythka to be a polearm (see spoiler for details) and using that, but as it's apparently a smaller type of weapon, I'll probably skip it.
Barbarian - totem (3-5 lvls)
- AC will be limited, thus both resistance and dex+con "armor" will be very handy. A kreen will probably not want to wear, nor find medium or heavy armors.
- Extra damage is neat too.
- Reckless attack fits very thematically!
Rouge - scout (3-4 lvls)
- Expertise for stealth
- Expertise for athletics. Originally my idead was to have this available to shield bash, but I'm considering to just skip it. See above regarding shield. I might just pick something else (Perception as usual...).
- Extra damage on the "off hand" claw attack.
- Scout for survival and nature skills with free expertise, it fits very thematically for my idea.
- Skimisher ability may or may not be useful, I honestly dont know. But a kreen has higher movement, potentally coupled with extra move from Barbarian class.
Note: My first thought was assassin as that would go very well with superior stealth and attacking. I'm generally not too fond of builds relying so much on a spesific condition as surprise. However I can always be persuaded.
Now after that I'm wondering if to go for Battlemaster, as eventually 6-8 levels would benefit greatly in regards to feats, or to pick revised ranger (gloomstalker) for the features plus few spells. However Rage and concentration is a no go after all.
ASI/Feats
1. Buff Strength to 20
2. Great Weapon Master or Polearm master
3. Increase dex/con or get resilient dex or con
4. There are also a few homebrew feats available. Listed in spoiler.
Details and homebrew that is relevant:
Spoiler: Custom Race, weapons, feats and rolles stats
Racial Traits:
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 2, and you may choose to increase either your Strength or Wisdom score by 1.
Speed. Your base land speed is 35 feet.
Size. Your size is Medium.
Alien Nature. Thri-kreen are so different from all of the other humanoid races that you suffer disadvantage on Charisma (Persuasion) checks made to influence anyone other than a thri-kreen.
Chameleon Power: You can change the color of your carapace to match your surroundings. As a result,
you have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks made to hide.
Darkvision: Accustomed to running across dunes or grasslands throughout the day and night, you can
see in the darkness within 60 feet of you as if you were in dim light. However, you can’t discern color in the
darkness.
Hard Carapace: When wearing no armor, your AC is equal to 12 + your Dexterity modifier (max 3).
Multiple Limbs: You have four arms and can hold items in each of your arms. On your turn, you may
interact with two objects or features of the environment for free.
Natural Weaponry:[/B] If you are not holding anything with at least two arms, you may simultaneously use
two of your limbs as a natural weapon to attack a target. You are considered to be proficient with this natural
weapon, and your claws are considered to have both the light and finesse weapon properties. Your claws deal
1d4 (+ Ability modifier) slashing damage.
Poisonous Bite: As an action, you may try and bite an adjacent foe (5 foot reach) with your powerful
mandibles. To attack with your bite, you make an attack roll, adding your proficiency bonus and either your
Strength or Dexterity modifier. Your bite deals 1d6 + Strength or Dexterity modifier piercing damage. If you hit
and deal damage, the target must succeed on a DC 11 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned for 1 minute. If
the creature is poisoned, it must repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a success, it ends the
effect early. Class features which normally boost a weapon attack (such as sneak attack) cannot be applied to
this racial ability.
Sleepless: You do not sleep. Once per day, you may gain the benefits of a long rest after taking a short
rest, and magic cannot put you to sleep.
Standing Leap: You can long jump up to 30 feet and high jump up to 15 feet as part of your movement
without taking a running start.
Telepathy: You can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet of you that can
understand a language.
Thri-Kreen Weapon Training: You have proficiency with the chatkcha and gythka.
Unusual Body Shape: You can only wear armor or clothing specially designed for thri-kreen; such
equipment costs double its normal price.
Languages: You can speak Thri-Kreen and Distorted Common. Due to your physiology, other races will
have difficulty understanding you, as your speech comes out elongated and hissing.
Stat rolled in autumn 2016
str 18(1+17)
dex 17(2+15)
con 17
int 13
wis 14
cha 13
Kreen Weapons:
Chatkcha [1d6 P] : The chatkcha returns to a proficient thrower on a missed attack roll. To catch it, the character must make an attack roll against AC 10 using the same bonus they threw the chatkcha with. Failure indicates the weapon falls to the ground 10 ft. in a random direction from the thrower. Catching the chatkcha is part of the attack and does not count as a separate attack.
Gythka [1d6 / 1d6 S] : A gythka is a double weapon. You may fight as if fighting with two weapons. A creature using a double weapon in one hand, such as a half‐giant using a gythka can’t use it as a double weapon.
(I did not see range listed, but probably as dagger)
Feats
Combat Reflexes
Prerequisite: Dex 13+
• You can perform a number of
opportunity attacks per round equal
to your Dexterity modifier
(minimum 1).
• You gain advantage on all
opportunity attacks.
Raging Strength
Prerequisites: Str 15+, Rage class feature
• Whenever you are raging, you deal
+3 additional points of damage with
your melee attacks.
• You can reroll 1s on damage
rolls. You must keep the new result.
Weapon Specialization
Prerequisite: Proficiency with selected
weapon
• Choose one weapon. You gain a +1
bonus on all attack rolls you make
using the selected weapon.
• With your chosen weapon, you also
gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls.
• Once per short rest you can gain
advantage on an attack roll made
with your chosen weapon.
I'm sure I forgot something.. but please do have a look and I will appreciate any thoughts and suggestions! Note that I am not too interested in a character build that comes online at lvl near 20. We do not play too often and will not level quickly. If there is a level or two missing for a fun but non-essential detail, that's probably ok.Last edited by Nibenay; 2019-09-12 at 09:00 AM.
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2019-09-12, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- Perth, Western Australia
- Gender
Re: Thri-kreen Non caster
If I'm being honest, I feel like that racial template is WAY too powerful. It has barely any penalties beyond roleplaying ones, which may be glossed over. I'd definitely lose the chameleonic skin, and perhaps re-word the multiple limbs to describe the second pair as being more primitive, and incapable of complex function (eg using weapons for attacks) - allowing for basic interaction. Otherwise, someone else could easily say "well, why can't I dual-wield two-handed weaponry for my two attacks per turn?" Sleepless should be more like the warforged one - you still need a long rest, you just don't need to sleep; I know it's a "once per day" thing but in theory, that allows a thri-kreen spellcaster the ability to regain all their spell slots twice in a "day".
the other "penalties" for language, armour - totally reasonable, as they mostly impact on the RP aspect but make sense and seem fair. But I think compared to all the benefits, paying double for armour, and only have a disadvantage on one skill? Not fairly balanced. Maybe *any* Cha skill check disadvantage*?
* this is a big bugbear** for me, in that Intimidate and Persuade seem like opposite ends of the Cha scale - wouldn't someone with low Cha be perhaps MORE scary and intimidating? It's a weird one.
** or your race of choice.
So for generations did the sainted skull of Caius Anicius Magnus Furius Camillus Æmilianus Cornelius Valerius Pompeius Julius Ibidus, consul of Rome, favourite of emperors, and saint of the Romish church, lie hidden beneath the soil of a growing town. At first worshipped with dark rites by the prairie-dogs, who saw in it a deity sent from the upper world..
- H.P. Lovecraft, "Ibid".
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2019-09-12, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Thri-kreen Non caster
From how I interpret the claws part and also knowing the discussions we and my GM had 20 years ago, I can guarantee there will be no chance wielding two 2-handed weapons. The choice will be a single 2-handed weapon and then the possibility to use claws/bite/other-1h-weapon as dual wield option. However we had a brief conversation about the likelyhood of a thri-kreen wielding a 2h weapon plus a shield. Seemingly quite strong but the armor class will probably be quite restricted. See below.
Sleepless should be more like the warforged one - you still need a long rest, you just don't need to sleep; I know it's a "once per day" thing but in theory, that allows a thri-kreen spellcaster the ability to regain all their spell slots twice in a "day".
the other "penalties" for language, armour - totally reasonable, as they mostly impact on the RP aspect but make sense and seem fair. But I think compared to all the benefits, paying double for armour, and only have a disadvantage on one skill? Not fairly balanced. Maybe *any* Cha skill check disadvantage*?
* this is a big bugbear** for me, in that Intimidate and Persuade seem like opposite ends of the Cha scale - wouldn't someone with low Cha be perhaps MORE scary and intimidating? It's a weird one.
Any comments on the build itself? So far I've opted to go for a 3 rogue(scout)/2 Barb/6 fighter(battlemaster)
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2019-09-12, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2014
Re: Thri-kreen Non caster
As with the Tortollan, a Monk/Barbarian AC is derived either from the race's enhanced base AC + Dex or from 10 + Con/Wis + Dex. It would not be 13 + Con + Dex in the mooted build above.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
The PCs, walk into a town they've never before visited together, all the villagers stop & stare at them. The PCs realise why when they get to the fountain at the centre of town, there are accurate statues of each of them, even down to the gear they currently carry. The statues have been here for generations...
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2019-09-12, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Thri-kreen Non caster
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2019-09-12, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2014
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
The PCs, walk into a town they've never before visited together, all the villagers stop & stare at them. The PCs realise why when they get to the fountain at the centre of town, there are accurate statues of each of them, even down to the gear they currently carry. The statues have been here for generations...
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2019-09-13, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
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2019-09-13, 05:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2019
Re: Thri-kreen Non caster
This homebrew race is ridiculously overpowered. Try looking to other races to see how many nice things other races get. For example, you can start with a vanilla race and start from there (exchanging one racial spell for another of the same level and exchanging one proficiency with another)
Above all, avoid compensating for mechanical benefits with roleplaying debuffs. Try to keep flavour and mehanics separate.Last edited by Magicspook; 2019-09-13 at 02:34 PM.
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2019-09-13, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Thri-kreen Non caster
Agreed.
This is basically a Wood elf with 100 foot telepathy, a free 30 foot jump, natural weapons with finesse, two extra arms (!) and the ability to treat a short rest as a long rest (!!!). They get what amounts to a touch cantrip that deals 1d6+Stat damage that imposes the poisoned condition, and they can use it as often as they like.
Spoiler: Constructive Suggestions
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 2, and you may choose to increase either your Strength or Wisdom score by 1.
Speed. Your base land speed is 35 feet.
Size. Your size is Medium.
Alien Nature. Thri-kreen are so different from all of the other humanoid races that you suffer disadvantage on Charisma (Persuasion) checks made to influence anyone other than a thri-kreen.Like all inter-racial prejudice, this should be a subjective penalty under the jurisdiction of the DM. You shouldn't have this penalty against a trader used to dealing with Thri-Kreen, for example. This is as inappropriate as if the drow had a racial trait that read "everyone assumes you're evil or something". I feel like this was tossed in as a way to make an attempt to balance out the broken mechanics elsewhere in the statblock: it doesn't.
Chameleon Power: You can change the color of your carapace to match your surroundings. As a result,Move to a racial feat.
you have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks made to hide.
Darkvision: Accustomed to running across dunes or grasslands throughout the day and night, you can
see in the darkness within 60 feet of you as if you were in dim light. However, you can’t discern color in the
darkness.
Hard Carapace: When wearing no armor, your AC is equal to 12 + your Dexterity modifier (max 3). A shield's benefits apply as normal while you use your natural armor. This is an odd form of natural armor, but I like it. Shield use added, because there's no good reason why it shouldn't be.
Multiple Limbs: You have four arms and can hold items in each of your arms. On your turn you may interact with one additional object or feature of the environment for free. However, your arms are individually weaker than a normal humanoid's: shields and weapons require one additional arm to use effectively unless they have the light property. You need two free hands to attempt to grapple a creature of your size or larger. This has historically been the hardest part of the Thri-Kreen to keep balanced while still feeling good and useful. You've said your DM wouldn't allow Glaive+Shield, and he's right to do so, but this would put that in writing, so to speak: light weapons use 1 hand, normal weapons and shields use 2 hands, two-handed weapons use 3 hands. But there are still advantages to be had here: you could use a handcrossbow along with a shield or melee weapon while still having a free hand to reload. A caster could use a shield, a light weapon and a focus. A dual-wielder could use a shield and two light weapons. A ranged attacker could use a bow or crossbow while still keeping a light weapon on hand for opportunity attacks.
Natural Weaponry: Your claws and bite are natural weapons you can use to make unarmed strikes. They deal slashing damage equal to 1d4 + your strength or dexterity modifier slashing damage on a hit and have the finesse property. I'm not sure what the purpose of the two-claw limitation here was supposed to be. I removed it and cleaned up the wording. The bite was added as a natural weapon for better intuitive use.
Poisonous Bite: When you hit a creature with your bite, you can inject that creature with poison. That creature must succeed on a constitution save or take 1d4 poison damage and becomes poisoned for one minute. At the end of that creature's turn it can repeat this save to end the poisoned condition early. The save DC is equal to 8 + your constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. Your poison glands are not unlimited: you can use this ability a number of times equal to your constitution modifier (minimum of 1). You regain all uses after a short or long rest. I buffed this a bit: it doesn't need its own action because your bite is a proper natural weapon and can be used with the Attack action (or Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows) and the save DC will scale with you instead of being a static 11. However, the uses are limited.
Sleepless: You do not sleep, periodically entering a torpor instead. You can gain the benefit of a long rest after you've taken six short rests since your last long rest. These short rests need not be consecutive. Also, magic cannot put you to sleep.The ability presented in the OP was either useless (if your DM doesn't restrict long rests) or incredibly overpowered (if they do). The ability I presented here puts you on par with an elf's 4-hour long rest on a "typical" adventuring day as defined by the DMG, with the added benefit of being able to break up your "long rest" into several short rests if needed, so while your companions are taking their 8 hour long rest, you could take a short rest, get up and cast some spells or whatever, take another short rest, get up again and go for a jog, rest again, wrestle a pig, then finish your rest.
Standing Leap: You can long jump up to 30 feet or high jump up to 15 feet as part of your movement without taking a running start.
Hivemind: You can communicate telepathically with another Thri-Kreen within 100 feet of you. Include a racial feat to expand this to more unlimited telepathy if you like, but telepathy is a very powerful ability for a number of reasons: it's not a ribbon. The feat which allows for universal telepathy could be the same feat that allows the camouflage ability.
Thri-Kreen Weapon Training: You have proficiency with the chatkcha and gythka.
Unusual Body Shape: You can only wear armor or clothing specially designed for thri-kreen; such equipment costs double its normal price.Silly restriction. No such rules exist for centaurs or Simic Hybrids or any other race with an unusual body type. The DM is specifically empowered to make armors not be one-size fit all (specific examples of dwarf armor needing to be modified to fit on humans is given) to there's no need to an explicit restriction here. Again, I feel like the author was trying to use "drawbacks" to justify an otherwise overpowered stat block.
Languages: You can speak Thri-Kreen and Common. Again, insisting that you face a roleplay restriction here is needless. Dragonborn speak through a lizard-face, Aarikocra and Kenju speak through a beak, Loxodons have a trunk, Orcs have tusks in their face. None of them face any explicit penalties for speaking common, I don't see why the Thri-Kreen would be treated differently. Again, roleplay drawbacks don't justify mechanical advantages.
EDIT: And to be clear, this is still a very powerful race: it's still "Wood elf and then some" but this is at least a step in the right direction.Last edited by Damon_Tor; 2019-09-13 at 12:41 PM.
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2019-09-13, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
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Re: Thri-kreen Non caster
For the four arms:
Perhaps some way of "switching" between two weapon loadouts using an object interaction? You can't use a sword, shield, and glaive all at once, but you can swap from sword and shield to glaive without spending an action to remove the shield, an object interaction to store the sword, and another object interaction to draw the glaive.
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2019-09-16, 03:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Thri-kreen Non caster
Last edited by Nibenay; 2019-09-16 at 03:30 AM.
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2019-09-16, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Thri-kreen Non caster
The feature I wrote out would allow for this to a degree, due to the RAW difference between holding and wielding a weapon. While a kreen needs an extra hand to wield most weapons, that's not true for holding them. This means at the extreme end of the spectrum, you could "hold" a bow with one hand while you weild a glaive with the other three, then switch seamlessly to the bow without a weapon draw. Shields muddy this up because of donning and doffing.