The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    You sir just made my day.
    I aim to please!
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Not really. There are plenty of cringe-worthy moments in films thanks to product placements. I'll talk about Spider-Man Homecoming just for a second before I condemn other films. I know you all are tired of hearing me complain about he MCU but I hate the fact that there is a subplot in that film where Peter and his best friend build a lego Death Star (gee, Disney owns Marvel and Star Wars, I'm sure there's underhanded about that). And now to bash some other non-MCU films to show I don't have a basis: while I've never seen the film I've heard there's a lot of product placement in the third act destruction scene from Man of Steel. The second Fantastic Four film has Johnny Storm have a new suit with corporate logos on it and apparently Dodge made the Fantastic Fours hover car as it does have the Dodge logo on it. In Green Lantern Hal Jordan briefly plays with Hot Wheels in one scene and then uses his power ring in another scene to create a giant Hot Wheels set to save people. The second Goosebumps film literally starts off as a commercial as the first shot of the first scene of the movie has both very visable Dunkin Doughnuts and Mac product placements. I could go on and on but again I recommend people check out the Half in the Bag review of Jack and Jill part 2 as that youtube video explains all my grief better than I ever could.



    You sir just made my day.
    I fail to see what the big deal is. Frankly I really don't care if well-known products such as Nintendo, Xbox, Playstation and etc. included in the movie. It doesn't bother me at all not even a little bit. So I really fail to see your complaint about any product in the movie.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    There's a difference between the versimilitude-breaking issues created by a world that is ostensibly modern-day Earth if you actively purge all known brands from view, compared to shoving said brands far too prominently into the screen.

    It is also, one imagines, a very difficult line to tread in today's environment. It requires a light, subtle touch and unfortunately, Big Business these days is about as subtle as Unicron wearing a Lady Gaga outfit breakdancing on your house while singing "I know a song that gets on your nerves" at the top of his voice and repeatedly parping an approrpiately-sized airhorn.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-09-13 at 07:26 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    There's a difference between the versimilitude-breaking issues created by a world that is ostensibly modern-day Earth if you actively purge all known brands from view, compared to shoving said brands far too prominently into the screen.

    It is also, one imagines, a very difficult line to tread in today's environment. It requires a light, subtle touch and unfortunately, Big Business these days is about as subtle as Unicron wearing a Lady Gaga outfit breakdancing on your house while singing "I know a song that gets on your nerves" at the top of his voice and repeatedly parping an approrpiately-sized airhorn.
    Yeah what he said.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    There's a difference between the versimilitude-breaking issues created by a world that is ostensibly modern-day Earth if you actively purge all known brands from view, compared to shoving said brands far too prominently into the screen.
    I'd argue this; inventing fake brands works perfectly well to suit these purposes. See Tarantino's Red Apple cigarettes or Big Kahuna burgers.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'd argue this; inventing fake brands works perfectly well to suit these purposes. See Tarantino's Red Apple cigarettes or Big Kahuna burgers.
    One of the purposes to making a movie is to make money. Inventing fake brands doesn't suit that purpose. Besides, showing me that a character drives a Greenhilt doesn't tell me anything about him Showing him driving a BMW does.

    I actually like commercials. I like having companies help pay for my entertainment.

    I particularly like the companies that track my preferences and tailor their ads to me. I've found out about new books from favorite authors, and new items I want to buy, because Amazon puts ads (recommendations) based on what I've bought in the past. This means fewer ads for products that don't interest me.

    Recently, I saw the ad for the next Order of the Stick book on this site, and have already pre-ordered it. Hooray for that commercial!

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    One of the purposes to making a movie is to make money. Inventing fake brands doesn't suit that purpose.
    I'll be sure to tell Tarantino he's been doing it wrong, then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Besides, showing me that a character drives a Greenhilt doesn't tell me anything about him Showing him driving a BMW does.
    If everyone in the movie reacts to a Greenhilt like they would to a BMW, then it kinda does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I actually like commercials. I like having companies help pay for my entertainment.
    For the record, I actually agree with this, to an extent.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-13 at 10:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'd argue this; inventing fake brands works perfectly well to suit these purposes. See Tarantino's Red Apple cigarettes or Big Kahuna burgers.
    But then you're breaking versimilitude from modern Earth, since, like it or not, brands ARE that deeply integrated into culture. (Over here at least, non-one uses the phrase vacuum-cleaner at least in my end, it's always the "hoover." Just for example. I also don't recall anyone ever asking for a "cola," everyone asks for a coke (or MAYBE a Pepsi, but as one comedian once pointed out, for a lot of people (myself included) that is a "same difference.") It is always VERY obvious when you're using a made-up brand (for example, any time a show has ZNN or some other ersatz stand-in for CNN or something - I notice that immediately, and I'm not even an America or someone who uses CNN as a news channel). So if you're trying to make a grounded and realistic program -

    - I'll be honest, I can't especially say that Mr Tarantno's body of work is particularly what I would call grounded and realistic (while I'm only especially familair with that one parter on CSI he did once, and it was a bloody good two-parter, it may be as close the realistic and grounded as he ever does); that is not a denegration of said work, by-the-by -

    - obviating things that exist from the real world world and replacing them with-made up ones doesn't help you, because you, the viewer, will know that's exactly what they're doing. (Imagine how successful picking something at semi-random, Big Bang Theory would have been is they couldn't have mentioned any real popular cukture.)

    But there is a very fine line between that and product placement.

    (The problem being that Business wants every mention to be Advertising.)

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Then why should it matter if a movie used a brand name product (whatever if it real or made-up) at all? It doesn't bother me at all then it's shouldn't bother to everyone else. Like who really cares.

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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'll be sure to tell Tarantino he's been doing it wrong, then.
    Not based on anything I said. All I said is that there is a legitimate movie-making technique he's not using -- which he already knows.

    Not all movies use all techniques, and not all techniques are good for all movies. There are no CGI dinosaurs in Titanic, no product placement in The Three Musketeers; no sword-fighting in The Wizard of Oz. Those legitimate movie-making techniques don't fit those particular movies. If Tarantino thinks product placement won't enhance his movies, I haven't said that he's making them wrong.

    There is no logical connection from anything I've said about product placementto the conclusion that movies without it are being made wrong.

    Pretending somebody said something they didn't say doesn't not further the discussion in any useful direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If everyone in the movie reacts to a Greenhilt like they would to a BMW, then it kinda does.
    Only if other people are in the scene, and visibly reacting. If somebody drives up in a Honda, to a street where every other car is a BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus, then the audience has been given some information before any person has been shown onscreen.

    When a character walks into a bar, the beers people are drinking are often used to indicate the socio-economic status of the bar, with nobody reacting to them at all -- because they see it every week.

    What we know about products, and who uses them, is often used to set a mood without any audience reaction at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    For the record, I actually agree with this, to an extent.
    Yes, I agree with you to a certain extent, also. Product placement is a way to set a mood or a location, but it isn't the only one. Tarantino might be correct that the potential benefit might not offset any negative he perceives. Or maybe the first person who tried to get him to do it had a bad specific idea, and he was put off the idea forever.

    I certainly agree that it can be badly done. If you distract from your story to have the character who is usually picky about whether his vodka martini is shaken or stirred suddenly get a Coke and repeat their slogan, "It's the real thing," then you've broken his characterization and probably the audience's focus.

    But there is no logical path from "Not everybody does it" and "It can be done badly" to "it's not a legitimate movie-making technique."

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    But then you're breaking versimilitude from modern Earth, since, like it or not, brands ARE that deeply integrated into culture.
    In the same movie as the Big Kahuna Burger and Red Apple Cigarettes people talk about the Quarter Pounder. It seems to me he seems fine with acknowledging the existence if brands without advertising them by showcasing logos, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Only if other people are in the scene, and visibly reacting. If somebody drives up in a Honda, to a street where every other car is a BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus, then the audience has been given some information before any person has been shown onscreen.

    When a character walks into a bar, the beers people are drinking are often used to indicate the socio-economic status of the bar, with nobody reacting to them at all -- because they see it every week.

    What we know about products, and who uses them, is often used to set a mood without any audience reaction at all.
    8f that's used to say something about a character, sure. If it's thrown in without consideration for how reality is, or thrown in because a company paid for it? That argument goes out the window. James Bond driving a Ford doesn't say anything about his character or sudden MI6 budget constraints, but rather that Ford dropped some cash.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-14 at 09:34 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    8f that's used to say something about a character, sure. If it's thrown in without consideration for how reality is, or thrown in because a company paid for it? That argument goes out the window. James Bond driving a Ford doesn't say anything about his character or sudden MI6 budget constraints, but rather that Ford dropped some cash.
    Agreed. It also says that it was poorly planned product placement and inferior movie making. This is no different from my example of using James Bond drinking a Coke as a bad example.

    I have no inherent problem with the filmmakers getting Aston-Martin to pay for the fancy car that he used in several movies. That helped to define the character. It was good product placement and good movie-making.

    Product placement, like any other aspect of movie-making, can be done poorly or well.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    8f that's used to say something about a character, sure. If it's thrown in without consideration for how reality is, or thrown in because a company paid for it? That argument goes out the window. James Bond driving a Ford doesn't say anything about his character or sudden MI6 budget constraints, but rather that Ford dropped some cash.
    Like I said, very fine line.

    I mean, I have a little bit of it myself, given this very board's rules. I will often talk (usually to ponythread) about this and that I've done for work and sometimes show it off (e.g, I'll happily tell you I spent fifteen years working on my starship rules, Accelerate and Attack, before finally publishing 'em), but I've never actually linked anything to my website or webshop or anything, because would be, like, advertising. It's a hard line to walk, though; at what point does merely seeing the thing itself or mentioning it count as advertising? Made harder by these days, business and brands tend to be so damn touchy about their image that just "it's in the background" isn't enough for them, they sort of want it in the foreground where it shouldn't be - the free publicity for it just existing on-screen doesn't seem to be acceptable, it seems.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Agreed. It also says that it was poorly planned product placement and inferior movie making. This is no different from my example of using James Bond drinking a Coke as a bad example.

    I have no inherent problem with the filmmakers getting Aston-Martin to pay for the fancy car that he used in several movies. That helped to define the character. It was good product placement and good movie-making.

    Product placement, like any other aspect of movie-making, can be done poorly or well.
    That's also why I made the Ford example, because I totally agree the Aston Martin says a lot about him. However, if you bring out a Foyals Foyce without dropping the name or logo, that can still say just as much about the character. You could drop a second-and-a-half pan over the inside of the car just to show the leather seats and huge built-in screen in the dash, you say just as much about the car and the character without spending that same second-and-a-half on the logo without nearly as many complaints.*

    *unless what you want to say about the character is they care about branding over quality, in which case it totally makes sense, but I don't think they'd be getting as big a cash bag from that manufacturer.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-14 at 11:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    I have a lot of very grumpy thoughts about commercialism in general, but I'll save those for some other thread (probably on some other board, since it might bleed into the political if I got too far into overall philosophy).

    For this thread, there are a couple of distinctions that make something bug me or not bug me.

    The best example of something that doesn't bug me, yet is obvious, blatant advertising, is movie trailers at the actual movie theater. It makes sense in the context of trying to get people "ready" to watch the real movie to show something to warn everyone that the movie is starting soon, get to your seats, and so on, and a few trailers can serve that niche while also usually being a useful heads-up of movies that are in some way similar to the one I'm about to watch will be coming out soon.

    As a kid, when I had fewer other ways to learn about upcoming movies but went to the theater pretty much every weekend with my friends, I definitely used before-movie trailers as a major source of information about which movies I might want to see in the future. (My friends and I tended to look at the movie listings in the paper each weekend and pick one or more movies we hadn't seen yet but that were playing nearby, so having a vague hierarchy of which movies were more likely to be somewhat interesting was important since we'd end up seeing about half of the available movies that weren't R or G during the summer for a few years there.) This was before you could stream long movie trailers on the internet, so movie theaters were also the only way I'd see a longer trailer for an upcoming movie. This probably helped it feel like it added actual value as well.

    However, when they started showing ads for things that weren't movies at the movie theater, it really irritated me. Those were not useful information for future theater visits, they were not narrowly targeted at "people who are watching this specific movie will be excited about this", and they were things I'd already seen on TV plenty of times. This trend was one of several reasons I stopped going to the movies so often. (The slides with irrelevant ads when you got to the theater early were fine, because they kept the lights up during them and you could talk with your friends. Replacing them with something with noise and lowered lights meant that they were harder to ignore and either talk or read a book through.)

    Product placement frustrates me when it doesn't really make sense, although I find it irritating when I notice it regardless. For example, a few years back some car company or other (I don't even remember which one) clearly had a deal with ABC to showcase their cars and their specific features across multiple ABC shows.

    On Castle, it was only somewhat contrived to find a reason why they'd be driving a whatever-mobile and need to use the in-car wifi or backup camera for something. I noticed it, and found it mildly irritating, but it at least fit the world and tech level of the show. However, when Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. did the same thing, it felt actively ridiculous since that's a show which routinely had super-tech far better for the purpose than would be found in some whatever-mobile, so suddenly trying to use their consumer-grade car for that would be like a plot point where Batman decides to go buy some new crime-fighting gear at Walmart rather than use his regular stuff. (It's theoretically possible to do a story where an equipment-based superhero needs to do that, of course, but this particular episode did not go through a process of depriving them of their regular tools for plot reasons and them all figuring out how to improvise, it just had them driving a whatever-mobile in the course of an unrelated plot and using its nifty consumer-level tech features to solve some contrived problem along the way rather than their better gear they used all of the rest of the time.)

    On the other hand, as a kid I loved all of the various 80s shows that pretty much existed to sell toys. Being able to buy the figures from the show so I could also tell my own stories about those characters using the figures was really appealing to me as a kid. (As I got older, this changed into telling entirely original long-running stories with Barbie dolls on sets I constructed myself and with elaborate notes, which then morphed into just building character sheets and settings using GURPS since it had much better tools for the kinds of characters and settings I was interested in playing with than Barbie did, but when I was younger having the pre-existing worldbuilding of something like Care Bears was appealing.)

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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    I like commercials in the sense that they provide a break.

    there's something about running out of the room at light speed during a commercial, to fill up on chips, go to the bathroom. that you just can't get without them.

    I equate the whole thing to this playwright (someone), who would flicker the lights during a show, to break the audience's immersion. Also, staring at something without break, isn't really that natural.


    something, something... instant gratification is bad.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    In the same movie as the Big Kahuna Burger and Red Apple Cigarettes people talk about the Quarter Pounder. It seems to me he seems fine with acknowledging the existence if brands without advertising them by showcasing logos, for example.
    In the very same scene as the mention of Big Kahuna Burger isn't Brett drinking a Sprite?

    As for the OP question, I accept that commercials are part of certain types of entertainment (mainly TV). Some are entertaining but most aren't (with some just being obnoxious). I watch TV and they help justify the shows on TV so I can live with them. Nothing stops me from changing the channel or leaving the room when they come on. Of course, if I can watch something on Netflix (or another streaming service) where there are no commercials or on HBO I usually do so.

    I do actually like the targeted ads online though. I don't like the data collection that makes them possible, but if I am going to see ads I would rather see ads related to my interests. I occasionally see something that interests me and sometimes I buy that thing.

    If anyone wants to see what a movie with fake products (mostly, I think the cars are still real brands) they need to watch the movie Repo Man (80's Emilio Estevez movie, not 2010 movie with Jude Law). All of the products in the various store scenes are generic. They all have white packaging with blue words indicating what they are (Cereal, Meat, Soda, etc). Whole stores stocked like this. There's a few clips on YouTube* to give you an idea of what it's like.

    *I never link YouTube videos on here (or many other places for that matter), are there any guidelines for what's okay in terms of content? These would be clips from an R rated movie from the 80s.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Commercials: Like It Or Hate It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    *I never link YouTube videos on here (or many other places for that matter), are there any guidelines for what's okay in terms of content? These would be clips from an R rated movie from the 80s.
    So long as the clips don't break the Forum Rules, they're most likely fine. The biggest things to watch out for are profanity and nudity. Also, you'll probably want to toss it in a spoiler box.

    Now stop undercutting my points with sound rebuttals.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-17 at 08:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadMech View Post

    I want to give special mention to ads so horrible that I make a point to never again purchase their products ever again. Top in class and winner of my award for worst advertising campaign ever goes to... The Quiznos rat puppets
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrks-BPeLQ
    My award goes to a commercial that's not only supremely annoying, it also doesn't even tell you what the product does or why you'd want to buy it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_SwD7RveNE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    My award goes to a commercial that's not only supremely annoying, it also doesn't even tell you what the product does or why you'd want to buy it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_SwD7RveNE
    I used to think that was a harmless, if annoying, ad. However... Lifting directly from Wikipedia
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    Unlike traditional headache medicines, the efficacy of HeadOn has yet to be systematically studied in any controlled scientific experimental study.[15] In line with other homeopathic medicines, Miralus Healthcare claims that the medicinal properties of HeadOn's ingredients are released via its dilution technique.[16] However, the dilution technique leaves virtually none of the active ingredient in the product,[17][18] and nowhere in scientific literature has the claim been supported that dilutions are effective in releasing the medicinal properties of any ingredients.[17][19]

    Moreover, none of HeadOn's ingredients have any scientifically supported effectiveness in treatment of a headache. One of the ingredients, white bryony, is a highly toxic berry that is lethal if 40 such berries are ingested;[20] however, dilution leaves virtually none of this ingredient in the product, which is why its makers can claim the treatment has no side effects[16] (or any effects at all[17]). Another ingredient, goldenseal (hydrastis canadensis), has no known effectiveness in the treatment of any condition.[21][22]

    The efficacy of the HeadOn product is supported by a few questionable testimonials found on the Miralus Healthcare website.[16] Miralus also markets many other questionable healthcare products containing low, if any, levels of any active ingredients.[16][17]


    So... legally speaking they probably can't tell you what you are supposed to use it for. So on the one hand yeah it's an annoying ad but on the other hand it's not damaging the companies reputation since they are nothing but a scam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadMech View Post
    So... legally speaking they probably can't tell you what you are supposed to use it for.
    Sure they can. "Headon, for headaches!" Nice, nondescript, not promising anything, not making any claims whatsoever, holds zero weight whatsoever, perfectly cromulent advertising there.

    Of course, I ain't no law person, so that's just my opinion, but it sure sounds watertight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure they can. "Headon, for headaches!" Nice, nondescript, not promising anything, not making any claims whatsoever, holds zero weight whatsoever, perfectly cromulent advertising there.

    Of course, I ain't no law person, so that's just my opinion, but it sure sounds watertight.
    Reminds me of the pills advertising vague, un-verifiable brain-related implications that advertise themselves as containing something originally found in jellyfish. I've taken to yelling "ah yes, jellyfish! Nature's scholars! Truly the wisest of creatures, much celebrated in fables" and such at the tv when that one comes on. (This mostly happens when I am stuck watching hours of news coverage with my grandma.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Algeh View Post
    Reminds me of the pills advertising vague, un-verifiable brain-related implications that advertise themselves as containing something originally found in jellyfish. I've taken to yelling "ah yes, jellyfish! Nature's scholars! Truly the wisest of creatures, much celebrated in fables" and such at the tv when that one comes on. (This mostly happens when I am stuck watching hours of news coverage with my grandma.)
    My take away from this is that I'm not the only one that talks to/yells at the TV on occasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure they can. "Headon, for headaches!" Nice, nondescript, not promising anything, not making any claims whatsoever, holds zero weight whatsoever, perfectly cromulent advertising there.

    Of course, I ain't no law person, so that's just my opinion, but it sure sounds watertight.
    Did they ever say it was for headaches? Literally all I know about Head-On is that it's applied directly to the forehead. I've never heard them claim it's a headache treatment. For all I know it could be a baldness cure, an aphrodisiac, or a memory enhancer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    Did they ever say it was for headaches? Literally all I know about Head-On is that it's applied directly to the forehead. I've never heard them claim it's a headache treatment. For all I know it could be a baldness cure, an aphrodisiac, or a memory enhancer.
    I heard that from a 3rd party, and later multiple third parties online, so I just assume it's true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    Did they ever say it was for headaches? Literally all I know about Head-On is that it's applied directly to the forehead. I've never heard them claim it's a headache treatment. For all I know it could be a baldness cure, an aphrodisiac, or a memory enhancer.
    I believe it used to say that it was for headaches, but they got word that the Better Business Bureau was putting together a lawsuit so they scrapped the "for headaches" portion of the advertisement. Can't get sued for false advertising if you never say what your product is for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I believe it used to say that it was for headaches, but they got word that the Better Business Bureau was putting together a lawsuit so they scrapped the "for headaches" portion of the advertisement. Can't get sued for false advertising if you never say what your product is for.
    I doubt that; if a lawsuit was brought forth, it'd be consumers or the government. I can't imagine what standing the BBB would have. And even then, saying "for headaches" isn't the same as saying "cures headaches."
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    It was more simple than that. The original ads called it a headache treatment. The FDA decreed that this was an unsupported health claim and ordered a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    You're right. Why should film makers focus on telling a good story when their goal should be to contact other businesses to try an inorganically shove a company's logo into the film? I hope in the new Star Wars film Rey drinks a Pepsi and wears Nikes.
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    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    It was more simple than that. The original ads called it a headache treatment. The FDA decreed that this was an unsupported health claim and ordered a change.
    That makes more sense than the Wikipedia article I got the BBB thing from. I tried to check the source, but the link appears to be dead.

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