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    DrowGuy

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    Default Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast (& Other Melee Cantrip Invocations)

    I love Warlock as a class for both its unique spell mechanics & its theme. I also love melee weapons. Few attacks in the game play out a cooler scene in my mind than Green Flame Blade.

    Sadly, I feel as though Warlock effectively railroads you into taking Eldritch Blast as a main attack or purposefully gimp yourself. I realize that it's an RP game & not a math game & I should just go with whatever fits my character concept & I do. I see no reason it shouldn't be balanced anyway.

    I've been playing a Warlock in my first really big game. I formulated a character concept for which I wanted GFB to be my main attack. I also started with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast because it seemed foolish not to & I could fit it into my character concept well enough. I quickly realized that EB was vastly superior to GFB. On level up, I decided to switch out AB because I didn't want my EB to be way better than GFB. I found that EB was still better every time. I was consciously choosing a lesser action to the bemoaning of my party just because it's supposed to be my character's preferred fighting style. Mechanics let Warlocks switch cantrips on level up, but my back story doesn't. Regardless, several levels later, I decided to retcon EB out of my story because it felt rather stupid to purposefully be avoiding using it. The same is still true for choosing to not have the cantrip available, but at least it's removed as a temptation.

    While formulating this, I decided to work with the assumption that Green Flame Blade & Eldritch Blast are equivalent without considering Eldritch Invocations. I don't actually believe that, but I started with that as a restriction to avoid over-doing it.



    EDIT:
    So, taking some tips from y'all & doing some basic arithmetic, I've come up with what I think is the most fair way to balance it out. It's a lot more than I thought it would be when I started, but honest to dog, I think it's the most comparable to AB. Keep in mind that once Charisma is at 20, AB = 91% increase in damage. Most people don't seem to realize that it's nearly doubling your damage. That's a key balance point.

    For reference, here is a table showing how the damage of EB scales both with & without AB. Assume your character starts as level 1 with 16 charisma, then you put your level 4 & 8 ABI into charisma. Charisma caps at 20. The numbers listed are means.

    Level EB alone % increase from AB EB + AB
    1 5.5 0% -
    2 5.5 55% 8.5
    4 5.5 73% 9.5
    5 11 73% 19
    8 11 91% 21
    11 16.5 91% 31.5
    17 22 91% 42

    To establish some jumping-off points, I've put together a table showing the target damage for GFB if it were to scale the same way. I'm assuming 1d8 base weapon damage die & Hexblade to avoid MADness. All values rounded to the nearest multiple of 0.5.

    Level GFB 1st target damage Goal GFB 1st target damage with invocation GFB total damage Goal GFB total damage with invocation
    1 7.5 - 10.5 -
    2 7.5 11.5 10.5 16
    4 8.5 14.5 12.5 21.5
    5 13 22.5 21.5 37
    8 14 26.5 23.5 45
    11 18.5 35.5 32.5 62
    17 23 44 41.5 79

    I'm presuming that keeping the damage proportionate is a more fair approach than simply adding the same flat amount because the same restrictions apply to the new damage from the invocation as to the base damage. Notice that the 1st target damage of GFB by default is always only slightly ahead of EB without AB (as shown on the first table). I'm considering the secondary target damage of GFB to be a pittance for the numerous perks of EB that GFB lacks:

    Eldritch Blast Green-Flame Blade
    120' range 5' range
    force damage (least resisted) fire damage (2nd most resisted)
    1x benefit of on-hit effect up to 4x benefit of on-hit effect
    less overkill on weak targets front loaded
    less risky must be in BBEG's face
    more attack rolls = greater consistency one attack roll = more swingy
    never lacks targets some damage wasted if no 2nd target
    generic beam attack colorful flaming sword!!

    Because all of those effects become proportionately more influential with an increase in EB damage, I'm assuming that the 2nd target damage of GFB must also increase proportionately to balance that.

    The actual text of the invocation:
    Spoiler: Blue-Flame Blade
    Show
    Blue-Flame Blade
    Prerequisite: green-flame blade cantrip

    As you practice channeling the elemental power of fire for use in martial combat, you increase your skills at generating flames more quickly & in greater amounts. You slowly improve your ability to direct your flames. Overtime, your flames grow hotter as reflected by their hue gradually shifting to blue & subsequently purple.

    The primary target struck by the melee attack made as part of your green-flame blade suffers additional 1d4 fire damage. This damage increases to a d8 at level 5.

    You may forgo leaping your flames to any additional targets to instead increase the fire damage to the primary target equal to your charisma modifier. This damage will not increase as you level up.

    Your green-flame blade gains the following additional benefits at higher levels:

    At level 7, the primary target is dealt 1d8 additional fire damage.

    At level 9, all fire damage dice dealt by your green-flame blade increase to d10.

    At level 15, all fire damage dice dealt by your green-flame blade increase to d12.


    I've condensed everything into a single cantrip which scales up with character level. I really wish there were a simpler way to make these fundamentally different cantrips scale in the same way but I sure can't think of any. Is it a lot?? Yes, but so is AB. AB does just as much in fewer words.

    With the above invocation, I was able to get the numbers to match up surprisingly closely. The numbers in parentheses in the central column are the damage if you choose to forgo the additional targets. How this stacks up:
    Level Goal GFB 1st Target Damage GFB 1st Target Damage with Invocation Goal GFB Total Damage GFB Total Damage with Invocation
    1 7.5 - 10.5 -
    2 11.5 10 (13) 16 13
    4 14.5 11 (15) 22.5 15
    5 22.5 17.5 (21.5) 37 26
    7 22.5 22 (26) 37 30.5
    8 26.5 23 (28) 45 32.5
    9 26.5 26 (31) 45 36.5
    11 35.5 31.5 (36.5) 62 47.5
    15 35.5 35.5 (40.5) 62 53.5
    17 44 42 (47) 79 66.5

    Notice that the numbers still trail the goal values with the exception of those in parentheses usually being ahead.

    When I look at this I definitely feel like it's way too much, but it's still just under matching the % increase of AB. Am I missing a step in my logic here?? Is there a mechanical reason that matching the proportionate increase of AB is a bad idea??
    EDIT: I'm fairly sure my fears of over doing are due to so far having played only at lowish levels & seeing numbers much lower than at the high end of these tables. I've mathed out damage for fighter (& several fighter multiclass dips) to compare what a melee character should be doing & found it ranges from comparable to far behind depending on magic item availability, spell effects, & enemy count. Since WL also gets fun tricks like spells & other invocations to compensate, I feel it's fairly close to where it should be. Still open to the possibility I haven't thought everything through.

    I considered throwing a range increase for the leap to the 2nd target on here as well, but I feel like that would invalidate one of the handicaps I claimed for scaling in proportion to AB. I still think that's useful & needed, but should be it's own invocation, such as:

    Spoiler: Wildfire
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    Wildfire
    Prerequisite: green-flame blade cantrip

    The fire of your green-flame blade can now leap up to 15 feet from the first target to reach a second creature of your choice that you can see.

    At level 5, your flames can leap to an additional creature you can see within 15 feet of either of the first two targets. The number of creatures you can hit in this way increases by one at levels 11 & 17. The third, fourth, & fifth targets each take fire damage equal to you charisma modifier.


    Although, my experience with never getting off the secondary target damage may be unusual, I think this would go a long way to improving it's usefulness. I think even a +10 feet increase would've been enough for the amount of times I could've used it to go from none to a decent handful.

    I like the idea of hitting more extra targets. Since being an AOE is kind of the gimmick for this particular cantrip, I though it'd be cool for it to do a little more of that, even if only dealing charisma mod damage.

    Edited again: Migrated the additional target effect to Wildfire (shown below) as advised by sandmote. It definitely fits the theme of Wildfire better than BFB. This way there's one invocation for matching AB on the single-target damage front & another for making GFB a respectable AOE. I suppose giving the AOE a 15m range was also violating one of the key grievances I'm relying on to justify this large damage bump. The secondary (& tertiary) target damage was a secondary concern anyway. I suppose I was putting too much effort into matching the goal values.



    Lightning Lure is what I've decided to take as a replacement for EB, so here are some invocations to compliment that as well:

    Spoiler: Lightning Reel
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    Lightning Reel
    Prerequisite: lightning lure cantrip

    Your lightning lure now has a range of 60 feet and can pull its target up to 20 feet in a straight line toward you. If the target succeeds on its strength save to resist being pulled, it can still be pulled up to 10 feet toward you. The target now suffers lightning damage if it is within 30 feet of you after being pulled instead of 5 feet.


    Compare to Grasp of Hadar.

    Spoiler: Lightning Anchor
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    Lightning Anchor
    Prerequisite: lightning lure cantrip

    A target damaged by your lightning lure has its speed reduced to 0 until the start of your next turn if it fails its strength save. If it succeeds on its strength save, its speed is reduced by half instead.


    Compare to Lance of Lethargy.



    Because I like Booming Blade too:

    Spoiler: Maelstromic Sweeps
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    Maelstromic Sweeps

    Prerequisite: booming blade cantrip

    When your weapon strikes your foe, a small storm brews.

    When you cast booming blade, the target takes additional lightning damage equal to your charisma modifier. If the target takes the thunder damage for willingly moving, it is deafened for 1 round.

    Your booming blade gains the following additional benefits at higher levels:

    At level 5, if the target does not willingly move from its current position before the start of your next turn, all creatures within 5 feet of it take thunder damage equal to 1d8. The range of this effect increases to 10 feet at level 11 & 15 feet at level 17.

    At level 7, the thunder damage the target suffers for willingly moving before the start of your next turn increases by an additional 1d8.

    At level 9, all thunder damage dice dealt as a result of your booming blade increase to d10.

    At level 15, all thunder damage dice dealt as a result of your booming blade increase to d12.


    Yes, the +charisma damage is lightning. Thunder always accompanies lightning!!

    There is now a penalty for not moving, making the decision trickier (if they even know what's happening).

    This scales slower than blue-flame blade, which is intentional since BB has more to it than just damage. Making all the same assumptions as previously:

    Level Booming Blade alone, without move Booming Blade alone, with move Booming Blade with invocation Booming Blade with move & invocation
    1 7.5 12 - -
    2 7.5 12 10.5 15
    4 8.5 13 12.5 17
    5 13 22 17 21.5
    7 13 22 17 26
    8 14 23 19 28
    9 14 23 20 36.5
    11 18.5 32 25.5 47.5
    15 18.5 32 27.5 53.5
    17 23 41 34 66.5
    Last edited by Zazamori; 2019-09-20 at 05:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast

    Green-Flame Blade increases in damage at the same levels as other damage cantrips. It starts doing fire damage to the primary target starting at 5th level. However, it uses Dexterity or Strength (you're a warlock, so probably the former) on the attack roll, because it's a melee weapon attack.

    I would change the cantrips to say the extra damage does not stack with Pilot Light, Flash Fire, ect. in the invocation description, instead of the prerequisites. It's kind of wierd on the brain to see I'd have to drop my current important invocation before I can take another one.

    Additionally I would instead have one invocation grants flat damage, and a few more granting utility. For example, maybe one that forces the targets to make Dex saves or be set on fire (taking damage each turn), one allowing you to push the target away on a hit, one allowing you to apply a status effect for one turn, and one allowing a second casting of Green-Flame Blade as part of the same action. Given Green-Flame Blade technically scales by 2d8 (1d8 against each target) whenever your cantrips increase in power, bring it up to a larger damage die than eldritch blast has seems unnecessary.

    Edit: typos, slight clarification.
    Last edited by sandmote; 2019-09-14 at 01:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I would change the cantrips to say the extra damage does not stack with Pilot Light, Flash Fire, ect. in the invocation description, instead of the prerequisites. It's kind of wierd on the brain to see I'd have to drop my current important invocation before I can take another one.
    I agree. I wanted a more elegant way like the old UA Superior Pact Weapon & Ultimate Pact Weapon, in which the text just sets it to a new value, rather than providing a bonus. That turned out to be choppier since it's adjusting the damage in several different ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Additionally I would instead have one invocation grants flat damage...
    The problem with flat damage is it doesn't scale like AB. A flat boost would mean being too powerful at low levels, too weak at high levels, or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    ...and a few more granting utility. For example, maybe one that forces the targets to make Dex saves or be set on fire (taking damage each turn), one allowing you to push the target away on a hit, one allowing you to apply a status effect for one turn, and one allowing a second casting of Green-Flame Blade as part of the same action.
    I like the first suggestion, definitely a good one.

    Would have to crunch numbers for comparison, but I think 2 GFB in one action is a fair bit more than what I've proposed & is more than I'm willing to ask for. I think 2x GFB per action would be better than a single EB+AB for single target damage, but would still pale in comparison when considering all the added utility of EB+AB (mostly the range, ability to waste less damage on weak targets, & benefitting from on-hit effects multiple times). I think the problem with 2x GFB is that it SOUNDS like way more than it actually would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Given Green-Flame Blade technically scales by 2d8 (1d8 against each target) whenever your cantrips increase in power, bring it up to a larger damage die than eldritch blast has seems unnecessary.
    Maybe my games have been unusual, but I've played a character for 5 levels (maybe twice that many sessions lasting ~3 hours on average & including ~2 combat encounters each) with GFB as a main attack & haven't gotten the second target damage off once yet. I've counted the number of times I've seen enemies within 5' of each other in all my games, only thrice. Two of them were in a different game; I didn't have the GFB character. The other was right at the start of combat & they split up before I could get close enough to do a GFB.
    I don't think my DMs are consciously biased against my signature move or anything like that, it just seems to always be the more rational decision for enemies to split up to avoid AOE. The PCs in my parties reach that same conclusion often also. It's just the smart thing to do.
    I also believe my DMs tend to be inclined to split up enemies to distribute damage more evenly to the party rather than focus down one member at a time. Honestly, being focused down by the enemies just to get off a lil extra fire damage wouldn't be a great trade.
    I may have become biased due to playing in unusual games, but for this reason I kind of feel the secondary attack damage isn't even fair to consider & is way more than outweighed by the other benefits of EB, which is why I'm more concerned with making up for it against the primary target.

    All that being stated, what do you think about this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch Invocation
    Embers in the Wind
    Prerequisite: green-flame blade cantrip, level 5

    The fire of your green-flame blade can now leap up to 10 feet from the first target to reach a second creature of your choice that you can see.

    The flames can leap to up to two additional different creatures you can see within 20 feet of either the first or second target. These additional targets take fire damage equal to your charisma modifier. This damage does not increase as you gain levels.
    & these (Lightning Lure is what I've decided to take as a replacement for EB):

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch Invocation
    Lightning Reel
    Prerequisite: lightning lure cantrip

    Your lightning lure now has a range of 120 feet and can pull its target up to 20 feet in a straight line toward you. If the target succeeds on its strength save to resist being pulled, it can still be pulled up to 10 feet toward you. The target now suffers lightning damage if it is within 30 feet of you after being pulled instead of 5 feet. The target suffers an additional 1d8 lightning damage regardless of its distance from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch Invocation
    Lightning Sinker (or Lightning Anchor??)
    Prerequisite: lightning lure cantrip

    A target damaged by your lightning lure has its speed reduced to 0 until the start of your next turn if it fails its strength save. If it succeeds on its strength save its speed is reduced by half instead.
    Compare these to Grasp of Hadar & Lance of Lethargy respectively. They are more powerful in terms of movement control but less powerful than EB in terms of damage. The main point of Lightning Lure here is to make setting up for GFB as an AOE slightly easier. Also consider that I'm now using 2 cantrips & 4 invocation slots to do what EB does as 1 cantrip with 3 invocations.
    Last edited by Zazamori; 2019-09-15 at 12:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazamori View Post
    Would have to crunch numbers for comparison, but I think 2 GFB in one action is a fair bit more than what I've proposed & is more than I'm willing to ask for. I think 2x GFB per action would be better than a single EB+AB for single target damage, but would still pale in comparison when considering all the added utility of EB+AB (mostly the range, ability to waste less damage on weak targets, & benefitting from on-hit effects multiple times). I think the problem with 2x GFB is that it SOUNDS like way more than it actually would be.
    On second thought, it would probably be better the allow two weapon attacks, with the spell going off on the 1st one to hit. That would increase your damage slightly and your chance of dealing the spell's damage considerably.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zazamori View Post
    Maybe my games have been unusual, but I've played a character for 5 levels (maybe twice that many sessions lasting ~3 hours on average & including ~2 combat encounters each) with GFB as a main attack & haven't gotten the second target damage off once yet. I've counted the number of times I've seen enemies within 5' of each other in all my games, only thrice. Two of them were in a different game; I didn't have the GFB character. The other was right at the start of combat & they split up before I could get close enough to do a GFB.
    I don't think my DMs are consciously biased against my signature move or anything like that, it just seems to always be the more rational decision for enemies to split up to avoid AOE. The PCs in my parties reach that same conclusion often also. It's just the smart thing to do.
    I also believe my DMs tend to be inclined to split up enemies to distribute damage more evenly to the party rather than focus down one member at a time. Honestly, being focused down by the enemies just to get off a lil extra fire damage wouldn't be a great trade.
    I may have become biased due to playing in unusual games, but for this reason I kind of feel the secondary attack damage isn't even fair to consider & is way more than outweighed by the other benefits of EB, which is why I'm more concerned with making up for it against the primary target.
    What is your group fighting that you aren't ever going up against a large mob of very weak enemies?

    This makes it sound as if your DM is used to 3.5e or pathfinder, where weaker enemies eventually become entirely useless to throw at the party. I suggest bringing this up to the DM, and suggesting he try a small mob of zombies/goblins/orcs/mephits/wolves/giant wolf spiders or whatever similarly weak enemies would fit the campaign. In 5e a large enough group of such creatures is still a threat; they can still actually surpass the party's AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazamori View Post
    The suggestions written as quotes that aren't added to my reply as a result.
    I'd break Embers in the Wind into two invocations, as follows:

    Embers in the Wind
    Prerequisite: green-flame blade cantrip, 5th level

    The fire of your green-flame blade can now leap up to 15 feet from the first target to reach a second creature of your choice that you can see.

    Wide-Flame Blade
    Prerequisite: green-flame blade cantrip, 12th level

    The fire from your Green-Flame blade reaches further, and the flames can leap to two additional targets within range, instead of one. Both targets take additional damage as normal.

    I like the name "Lightning Anchor," better, and I think that one is great as is. I'm going to suggest simplifying Lighting Reel though:

    Lightning Reel
    Prerequisite: lightning lure cantrip, 5th level

    Your lightning lure now has a range of 60 feet and damages a can pull its target up to 20 feet in a straight line toward you. If the target fails its saving throw it is pulled 30 feet closer and takes damage if it is within 30 feet of you. If it succeeds on the saving throw it is move half as far.



    Here's my suggested simplification for your initial invocations. That there's only two is intentional, as I'm going to list a few more suggestions in a moment. Admittedly, the first one might be a bit strong to allow at 2nd level, although it stacks with Extra Spellstrike (listed later)

    Empowered Spellstrike
    Prerequisites: green-flame blade cantrip or booming blade cantrip
    When you make a melee weapon attack as part of a cantrip, you deal an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as the cantrip on each hit.

    Blue-Flame Blade
    Prerequisite: green-flame blade cantrip, 9th level

    Your flaming blade burns hotter, as reflected in it's bluer hue. The cantrip's damage die increase from a d8 to a d10.

    And other suggestions for such cantrips:

    Lasting Flames
    Prerequisites: green-flame blade cantrip

    Each Creature hit by your greenflame blade must make a Consitution saving throw or catch on fire, taking 1d4 fire damage at the end of its turn for 1 minute. The target can make an additional saving throw at the start of its turn, ending the effect on a success, or put out the flames as an action.

    Extra Spellstrike
    Prerequisites: green-flame blade cantrip or booming blade cantrip, 7th level
    Whenever you cast a cantrip that requires a melee weapon attack roll, you may make a second attack with the weapon as part of the casting. Only the first target you hit is subject to the extra effects of the cantrip.

    Distracting Cacophony
    Prerequisites: booming blade cantrip
    Whenever you hit a target with the booming blade cantrip, the target cannot make attacks of opportunity against you for the rest of your turn, as the noise interfere's with its attacks.

    Wide Boom
    Prerequisites: booming blade cantrip, 12th level
    When a creature affected by your booming blade willing moves, creatures other than you within 5 feet of the target take 1d8 thunder damage.

    I haven't checked the damage for these yet. Note that players are likely to drop Distracting Cacophony for the Mobile feat. With the War Caster feat you could be in range of the additional damage from Wide Boom, which is why you are immune. MY primary concern here is that you're now looking at 6 innvocations that increase Green-Flame Blade's power, in which case a few of them should probably be replaced with invocations granting utility.

    Please Note I haven't included Violet-Flame Blade. I think that damage increase is unnecessary when you include my other suggestions. It also interacts weirdly with Blue-Flame Blade

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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast

    Just as a quick note: assuming you use Green-Flame Blade with a 1d8 weapon, only use it when the AoE triggers, and get your Cha and your Str/Dex to 20 ASAP... Green-Flame Blade already matches Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast really closely. Like, we're talking half a point of expected damage here and there.

    Which suggests to me that the following Invocation would be entirely fair (though you might want to put a level prereq on it if your game allows multiclassing):

    Green Sun Blade
    Prerequisite: Green-Flame Blade cantrip
    Whenever you use the Green-Flame Blade cantrip, you may select the creature you hit initially when choosing the creature the green flames jump to.




    In terms of general "does this keep up with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast?" damage, your cantrip choices are the two weapon cantrips (assuming their extra damage triggers). Which is why they're generally considered to be mistakes.
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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Just as a quick note: assuming you use Green-Flame Blade with a 1d8 weapon, only use it when the AoE triggers, and get your Cha and your Str/Dex to 20 ASAP... Green-Flame Blade already matches Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast really closely. Like, we're talking half a point of expected damage here and there.

    Which suggests to me that the following Invocation would be entirely fair (though you might want to put a level prereq on it if your game allows multiclassing):

    Green Sun Blade
    Prerequisite: Green-Flame Blade cantrip
    Whenever you use the Green-Flame Blade cantrip, you may select the creature you hit initially when choosing the creature the green flames jump to.
    We're also talking standing in a melee, and the AoE doesn't rigger very often.

    Personally, I find your invocation more broken, because it always allows the effect to go off. If you instead make an invocation making it easier for the effect to go off (but not guaranteed, and certainly not against the same target), I think that's fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    In terms of general "does this keep up with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast?" damage, your cantrip choices are the two weapon cantrips (assuming their extra damage triggers). Which is why they're generally considered to be mistakes.
    I think allowing them for non-warlocks is an issue, but you can't always get the extra damage off and they have a very short range, so I think they can afford to be a little stronger than Eldritch Blast.

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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    On second thought, it would probably be better the allow two weapon attacks, with the spell going off on the 1st one to hit. That would increase your damage slightly and your chance of dealing the spell's damage considerably.
    That's a great suggestion, which I will keep in my back pocket.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    What is your group fighting that you aren't ever going up against a large mob of very weak enemies?

    This makes it sound as if your DM is used to 3.5e or pathfinder, where weaker enemies eventually become entirely useless to throw at the party. I suggest bringing this up to the DM, and suggesting he try a small mob of zombies/goblins/orcs/mephits/wolves/giant wolf spiders or whatever similarly weak enemies would fit the campaign. In 5e a large enough group of such creatures is still a threat; they can still actually surpass the party's AC.
    Nope, DM & most people in the group have only ever played 5e & are fairly new at that. Campaign started out as HotDQ, but at this point he's designing his own challenges. The overarching goal of racing to the masks is the same, but basically everything along the way he's making up. There've been quite a few boss fights. There've been a few instances of fighting a handful of weak cultists or forest animals, but they have a tendency not to stand nearby each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I'd break Embers in the Wind into two invocations, as follows:

    Embers in the Wind
    Prerequisite: green-flame blade cantrip, 5th level

    The fire of your green-flame blade can now leap up to 15 feet from the first target to reach a second creature of your choice that you can see.


    I like the name "Lightning Anchor," better, and I think that one is great as is. I'm going to suggest simplifying Lighting Reel though:

    Lightning Reel
    Prerequisite: lightning lure cantrip, 5th level

    Your lightning lure now has a range of 60 feet and damages a can pull its target up to 20 feet in a straight line toward you. If the target fails its saving throw it is pulled 30 feet closer and takes damage if it is within 30 feet of you. If it succeeds on the saving throw it is move half as far.
    Thank you for the input.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Here's my suggested simplification for your initial invocations. That there's only two is intentional, as I'm going to list a few more suggestions in a moment. Admittedly, the first one might be a bit strong to allow at 2nd level, although it stacks with Extra Spellstrike (listed later)

    Empowered Spellstrike
    Prerequisites: green-flame blade cantrip or booming blade cantrip
    When you make a melee weapon attack as part of a cantrip, you deal an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as the cantrip on each hit.
    I like it, but I actually have done some fiddling with BB myself. I want to think of BB more as a control effect than a heavy hitter. Unlike GFB, it's got more going for it in that way. Whereas GFB's gimmick is the second target, if there is no second target it's wasted. BB is different because if the secondary damage doesn't trigger, it means you successfully locked down that enemy for a turn, so it wasn't a waste. BB has tactical merit which GFB lacks, so I feel BB isn't nearly as starved for a damage boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Blue-Flame Blade
    Prerequisite: green-flame blade cantrip, 9th level

    Your flaming blade burns hotter, as reflected in it's bluer hue. The cantrip's damage die increase from a d8 to a d10.
    This on it's own actually does very little. That's an average of +1 damage on each target at level 9 or a +3 on each at level 17. This on it's own isn't anywhere close to being worth an invocation imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    And other suggestions for such cantrips:

    Lasting Flames
    Prerequisites: green-flame blade cantrip

    Each Creature hit by your greenflame blade must make a Consitution saving throw or catch on fire, taking 1d4 fire damage at the end of its turn for 1 minute. The target can make an additional saving throw at the start of its turn, ending the effect on a success, or put out the flames as an action.
    A nice idea, but at 1d4 that's only an extra 2.5 dpr with a chance to save. Maybe not awful until level 5, but still pretty underwhelming compared to AB, or even something life Fiendish Vigor, Thirsting Blade, or Cloak of Flies. Could be fun to tweak this.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Extra Spellstrike
    Prerequisites: green-flame blade cantrip or booming blade cantrip, 7th level
    Whenever you cast a cantrip that requires a melee weapon attack roll, you may make a second attack with the weapon as part of the casting. Only the first target you hit is subject to the extra effects of the cantrip.
    This one is brilliant & I love it. Might be too powerful in combination with the one I've come up with, but on its own, great idea. Would hugely increase the chance of getting off that bonus damage, especially when lacking magic weapons. This on its own slightly increases the damage potential, while also decreasing the swinginess issue.

    It begs the question, do you roll both attacks at once & then apply the cantrip to one, which would be advantageous in case of a crit, or would you roll 1, decide whether to apply cantrip, & then roll 2nd one??

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Distracting Cacophony
    Prerequisites: booming blade cantrip
    Whenever you hit a target with the booming blade cantrip, the target cannot make attacks of opportunity against you for the rest of your turn, as the noise interfere's with its attacks.
    Another good idea, but too niche to be very useful. I think it would need something more. In the case of the character I've been playing, I plan to take the mobile feat at next opportunity, so my guy will have to hard pass on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Wide Boom
    Prerequisites: booming blade cantrip, 12th level
    When a creature affected by your booming blade willing moves, creatures other than you within 5 feet of the target take 1d8 thunder damage.
    Love it. I have a note saved in my phone that's a lot like this. My character will eventually be grabbing BB. I love that BB forces a decision between being stuck for a turn & hurting yourself, & I love that this just adds another layerof complexity to that decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    With the War Caster feat you could be in range of the additional damage from Wide Boom, which is why you are immune.
    I think it would be interesting if your own character took the damage from Wide Boom. That would turn the trade-off decision making process around on the caster. Do you want to take the small hit to cause the enemy to take a big hit, or if not stop moving?? It would be in keeping with the spirit of the cantrip.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    MY primary concern here is that you're now looking at 6 innvocations that increase Green-Flame Blade's power, in which case a few of them should probably be replaced with invocations granting utility.
    Agreed, it's becoming a bit more than can fit on one character, but it doesn't hurt to have options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Just as a quick note: assuming you use Green-Flame Blade with a 1d8 weapon, only use it when the AoE triggers, and get your Cha and your Str/Dex to 20 ASAP... Green-Flame Blade already matches Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast really closely. Like, we're talking half a point of expected damage here and there.

    Which suggests to me that the following Invocation would be entirely fair (though you might want to put a level prereq on it if your game allows multiclassing):

    Green Sun Blade
    Prerequisite: Green-Flame Blade cantrip
    Whenever you use the Green-Flame Blade cantrip, you may select the creature you hit initially when choosing the creature the green flames jump to.
    I'm aware of that, but there's another problem in that EB has a lot of other things going for it that GFB lacks. The secondary target damage, even if it's quite limited, is the only thing GFB has that EB doesn't. Though that might allow GFB to match the single target damage of EB on paper, it would still be basically useless by comparison when you consider the range, damage type, & on-hit damage effects like Hex & Hex Blade's Curse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    In terms of general "does this keep up with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast?" damage, your cantrip choices are the two weapon cantrips (assuming their extra damage triggers). Which is why they're generally considered to be mistakes.
    I view the 2 weapon cantrips as rather fair compared to EB without AB. The problem is AB is huge & there're no invocations like it for other cantrips, hence why I'm making some.

    Are you stating the melee cantrips are mistakes, or EB + AB is a mistake??

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    We're also talking standing in a melee, and the AoE doesn't rigger very often.

    Personally, I find your invocation more broken, because it always allows the effect to go off. If you instead make an invocation making it easier for the effect to go off (but not guaranteed, and certainly not against the same target), I think that's fine.
    I find his Green Sun Blade to be rather underpowered, but I don't like the idea of giving up the extra effect because it's the only unique thing about GFB. I think it needs extra damage to the main attack to match AB, but then it should also get proportionate improvements to the extra effect. This extra effect shouldn't have to be surrendered because AB doesn't require surrendering any part of EB.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I think allowing them for non-warlocks is an issue, but you can't always get the extra damage off and they have a very short range, so I think they can afford to be a little stronger than Eldritch Blast.
    I believe they were originally designed for Bladesinger, no?? I view melee as imposing significant geographical limitations, which D&D 5E (& many other tabletop/video games) compensate for by increasing melee damage. It seems more than fair to me.
    Last edited by Zazamori; 2019-09-18 at 12:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast (& Other Melee Cantrip Invocations)

    EB kit:

    Agonizing Blast: +Cha damage on EB. Effectively 2x damage.
    Eldrich Spear: Insane range
    Grasp of Hadar: Pull 10' per hit (up to x4)
    Lance of Lethargy: -10' move (up to x4)
    Repelling Blast: Push 10' per hit (up to x4)

    EB is 1d10/2d10@5/3d10@11/4d10@17 using casting stat.

    GFB: Melee weapon [W]+Stat at level 1, +1d8@5/2d8@11/3d8@17
    Secondary Cha/1d8+cha@5/2d8+cha@11/3d8+cha@17

    Guiding Flame: (requires: Greenflame Blade)
    When using GFB, you can use charisma to attack with the melee weapon as part of the spell.

    Starting at level 5, when you hit a foe with GFB, the flames persist. You gain advantage on attack rolls and perception checks against creatures damage by your greenflame blade until the end of your next turn. At level 11, when you miss with GFB, you may reroll your attack. Once the reroll hits, you may not use this ability again until you take a long or short rest. At level 17, you may use rerolls until you hit twice.

    This invocation massively boosts your accuracy with the ability, and removes the double-attribute tax.

    Burning Embers: (requires: Greenflame Blade, 5th level)
    The first time before the end of your next turn a creature damaged by greenflame blade takes fire damage, that damage is increased by 1d8. This increases to 2d8 at level 11, and 3d8 at level 17.

    This is your damage boost. It is back-loaded a bit, but synergizes with other fire damage. Both the primary and secondary target are marked for damage boost; so when you switch targets you may get the boost on the first hit.

    Fire lash: (requires: Greenflame Blade)
    When you use Greenflame Blade, you add 10' to the reach of the melee attack. When you hit a creature with Greenflame Blade, you may move then up to 1' for every point of damage Greenflame Blade does.

    This is some positional utility. The 1' per damage is intended to scale somewhat similar to how EB push-pull invocations do.

    Greenflame Retribution: (require: Greenflame Blade)
    When you are hit by an attack, as a reaction you can cast greenflame blade and target the attacker, if they are in range. Resolve the greenflame blade spell before the triggering attack. If greenflame blade hits, you have resistance to the triggering attack; if greenflame blade reduces the target to 0 HP, the triggering attack misses.

    Here we have both damage and some defence when in melee against a nasty foe.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2019-09-19 at 09:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast

    I am amused by how my invocation is simultaneously overpowered and underpowered. I think you're both right .

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazamori View Post
    I view the 2 weapon cantrips as rather fair compared to EB without AB. The problem is AB is huge & there're no invocations like it for other cantrips, hence why I'm making some.

    Are you stating the melee cantrips are mistakes, or EB + AB is a mistake??
    Both, actually - they're both problematic for well-intentioned reasons.

    1) Eldritch Blast is intended to be the primary combat strategy for Warlocks, much like how "punch something" is what Monks will do pretty much every single round. That's fine and dandy - Eldritch Blast might be a little above the curve on its own, but nothing too crazy. The issue is that cantrips are supposed to deal less damage than a martial character's Attack action, so they pretty much had to give Warlocks something like Agonizing Blast. And if they wanted them to be able to build around "I use my Cthulhu Lasers" as a combat style, they had to hand it out as early as possible. That's also totally fair.

    The issue creeps in when you put multiclassing on the table. Suddenly, anyone Charisma-based has an efficient, automatically scaling magical attack that they can pick up for the low cost of two levels in Warlock (which also lets you pick up what are arguably the two best unique spells on the Warlock list, Armor of Agathys and Hex). It directly contributes to Warlocks being a "dip" class.

    It also makes it really hard to design invocations for other cantrips - if you want them to match Eldritch Blast (which is essentially Fire Bolt, But Better In Pretty Much Every Way), you'll need to hand out a comparatively huge bonus to the cantrip in question... which makes you feel like you need to split it up into multiple invocations, even though you're really only making it match a pre-existing option.

    Oh, and Agonizing Blast is an invocation tax - if you're using Eldritch Blast, you'll want Agonizing Blast, and Eldritch Blast is basically the best cantrip on the Warlock list. It's like how Druids effectively didn't get a feat at 6th level in 3rd edition (they basically had to take the Natural Spell feat at 6th level because not taking it was literally shooting yourself in the foot).

    2) The weapon cantrips are a mistake because they are just straight-up better than other cantrips. They essentially have double scaling and are much easier to build around than other cantrips. After all, you can improve your to-hit with them by picking up a magic weapon, you can use class features that were clearly not meant to be combined with spells (Paladin Smite, Sneak Attack, Reckless Attack, and so on and so forth), and Booming Blade in particular does nasty things in conjunction with War Caster. Damage-wise, they're roughly as good for you as Extra Attack, for much less of a build investment.

    ---

    Honestly, the real issue is that the aforementioned cantrips don't really fit in with the general design for cantrips. Cantrips as a group are designed as a way to let casters feel magical without having to burn spell slots all the time. They aren't supposed to be spammed every turn.

    Eldritch Blast should have been a class feature that pumped the power level of cantrips so that they could be your primary combat strategy. Like, if Warlocks gave you +Cha to damage with cantrips at 2nd level and an Extra Attack equivalent for Cantrips at 5th, you'd have a lot more build freedom. I might actually tinker with that a little bit...
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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast (& Other Melee Cantrip Invocations)

    I'm going to suggest moving this part of blue-Flame blade to Wildfire:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zazamori View Post
    At level 5, your flames can leap to an additional creature you can see within 15 feet of either of the first two targets. The number of creatures you can hit in this way increases by one at levels 11 & 17. The third, fourth, & fifth targets take fire damage equal to you charisma modifier.
    Bit like this:

    Wildfire
    Prerequisite: green-flame blade cantrip

    The fire of your green-flame blade can now leap up to 15 feet from the first target to reach additional creatures of your choice that you can see. For each die of fire damage the cantrip deals to the initial target, the flames leap to another creature within range, in addition to the second target of the cantrip. This effect cannot target more than three additional three creatures, each of which takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier.

    That makes wide hitting flames specifically a part of the wildfire invocation. Additionally, setting off the effect easier and allowing more targets means my previously suggested Lasting Flames invocation is 2d4 and automatically scales with additional targets (I'm looking at 5d4 at 17th).

    Although on second thought I'm going to change the order of events to deal damage before the target makes a second save:

    Lasting Flames
    Prerequisites: green-flame blade cantrip

    Each Creature hit by your green-flame blade must make a Constitution saving throw or catch on fire, taking 1d4 fire damage at the start of its turn for 1 minute. The target can make an additional saving throw at the end of its turn, ending the effect on a success, or put out the flames as an action.

    Against the main target this is +2.5 damage, but with Wildfire it becomes +5 easily enough. Continuing on, +7.5 at 5th, +10 at 11th and +12.5 at 17th. Like Booming Blade, it also forms an interesting choice (at least, for enemies with low Con saves) as they can spend time to end it early or try to tough it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazamori View Post
    Nope, DM & most people in the group have only ever played 5e & are fairly new at that. Campaign started out as HotDQ, but at this point he's designing his own challenges. The overarching goal of racing to the masks is the same, but basically everything along the way he's making up. There've been quite a few boss fights. There've been a few instances of fighting a handful of weak cultists or forest animals, but they have a tendency not to stand nearby each other.
    And I was hoping it'd be the easy to solve reason. Oh well, he should become more comfortable running larger groups of enemies with eventual practice. I'm not going to pretend that isn't a pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazamori View Post
    This one is brilliant & I love it. Might be too powerful in combination with the one I've come up with, but on its own, great idea. Would hugely increase the chance of getting off that bonus damage, especially when lacking magic weapons. This on its own slightly increases the damage potential, while also decreasing the swinginess issue.

    It begs the question, do you roll both attacks at once & then apply the cantrip to one, which would be advantageous in case of a crit, or would you roll 1, decide whether to apply cantrip, & then roll 2nd one??
    The idea is if you hit and then crit, you deal a bit more damage, but sorry; the cantrip already went off. Is there a particular way I should clarify "Only the first target you hit is subject to the extra effects of the cantrip?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazamori View Post
    I believe they were originally designed for Bladesinger, no?? I view melee as imposing significant geographical limitations, which D&D 5E (& many other tabletop/video games) compensate for by increasing melee damage. It seems more than fair to me.
    Probably, based on the book, although I still find them awkward. I've banned them on Arcane Tricksters, and regularly consider reducing both to a d6 in damage. Also, cover is more significant for ranged attacks if you include it, which helps keep the balance between ranged and melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Fire lash: (requires: greenflame blade)
    When you use greenflame blade, you can add 10' to your reach. When you hit a creature with greenflame blade, you may move then up to 1' for every point of damage greenflame blade does.

    This is some positional utility. Note that it scales.
    I like the second part in conjunction with my Distracting Cacophony.

    Retreating Strike
    Prerequisites: green-flame blade cantrip or booming blade cantrip
    When you cast a cantrip that requires a melee attack roll, you may immediately move 10 feet as a bonus action. You do not take attacks of opportunity when you take this movement, but choose whether to use this bonus action before doing anything else.

    Unlike Distracting Cacophony (which was meant to be a stopgap before you could get the mobility feat) the additional movement stacks, so it still has some use past 4th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I am amused by how my invocation is simultaneously overpowered and underpowered. I think you're both right .
    First, I'm glad I checked to see whether anyone had posted while I was writing. Second I think we're using wildly different measures of reasonable damage. I'm I'm starting with the position "green-flame blade is only allowable given it's hard to get the full damage off."

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Both, actually - they're both problematic for well-intentioned reasons.

    Eldritch Blast should have been a class feature that pumped the power level of cantrips so that they could be your primary combat strategy. Like, if Warlocks gave you +Cha to damage with cantrips at 2nd level and an Extra Attack equivalent for Cantrips at 5th, you'd have a lot more build freedom. I might actually tinker with that a little bit...
    I agree with most of this. I've tried adding knockoffs though and it's still a little clunky. The quick fix is to only allow it to scale with warlock level, rather than how normal cantrips do. Also give Agonizing Blast for free or give both up entirely to grab a bonus cantrip (a fair choice for anyone still dipping).

    If you start a homebrew page for this, please let me know.

    For the other two, how well (or poorly) do you think the following solves the worst abuses?

    Booming Blade
    As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee spell attack using a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target takes damage equal to the weapon's damage die + your spellcasting ability modifier, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell's damage increases when you reach higher levels.

    It's less MAD, but hopefully also harder to abuse?

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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast (& Other Melee Cantrip Invocations)

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    First, I'm glad I checked to see whether anyone had posted while I was writing. Second I think we're using wildly different measures of reasonable damage. I'm I'm starting with the position "green-flame blade is only allowable given it's hard to get the full damage off."
    I normally agree with that, but the OP wanted it to have Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast tier damage, which requires things to be a bit crazy.

    I agree with most of this. I've tried adding knockoffs though and it's still a little clunky. The quick fix is to only allow it to scale with warlock level, rather than how normal cantrips do. Also give Agonizing Blast for free or give both up entirely to grab a bonus cantrip (a fair choice for anyone still dipping).

    If you start a homebrew page for this, please let me know.
    Those are pretty good ideas for a quick fix. I'll let you know if I do - I think I've found a solution I like╣, but I have to fiddle with the numbers a bit more.

    At 2nd level, you get +Cha to damage with cantrips, at 5th level you can forgo normal scaling on attack cantrips to instead make two attacks, and at 11th level your cantrips deal +1dX damage. With those tweaks, Fire Bolt is essentially 1 damage behind a sword 'n' board Fighter from 2nd level to 19th level, with Hex boosting you up past that.

    For the other two, how well (or poorly) do you think the following solves the worst abuses?
    Booming Blade
    As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee spell attack using a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target takes damage equal to the weapon's damage die + your spellcasting ability modifier, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell's damage increases when you reach higher levels.

    It's less MAD, but hopefully also harder to abuse?
    I think that solves a lot of it, other than the doubled scaling. Let's compare it to a hypothetical beafed-up Acid Splash (which deals Xd8 damage instead of Xd6 damage), and assume that you're using a d8 weapon:

    Level Acid Splash Green-Flame Blade
    1st Dex or 2d8 damage (avg. 9) Attack for 1d8+2xCha damage (avg. 10.5)
    5th Dex or 4d8 damage (avg. 18) Attack for 3d8+2xCha damage (avg. 21.5)
    11th Dex or 6d8 damage (avg. 27) Attack for 5d8+2xCha damage (avg. 32.5)
    17th Dex or 8d8 damage (avg. 36) Attack for 7d8+2xCha damage (avg. 41.5)

    Hrm.

    Actually, I think there is a fair way to handle Green-Flame Blade:

    Green-Flame Blade
    Evocation cantrip
    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: 5 feet
    Components: V, M (a weapon)
    Duration: Instantaneous

    As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee spell attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target takes damage equal to the weapon's damage die, and green fire leaps from the target to a creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. That creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier.
    At Higher Levels. At 5th level, each creature damaged by this cantrip take an additional 1d8 fire damage. This increases to 2d8 fire damage at 11th level and 3d8 fire damage at 17th level.
    That should be on par with a hypothetical boosted Acid Splash.
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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast (& Other Melee Cantrip Invocations)

    I don't see a need to make Warlock damage curve identical to what it is today, down to the dipping.

    Change Agonizing Blast to a class feature with different rules.

    Starting at level 2, when you deal damage to a creature with a cantrip, it deals additional damage equal to the number of invocations you know.

    This makes low level Warlocks weaker, and high level single-class Warlocks stronger.

    Make the Pact of the Blade able to use charisma to attack whenever you make an attack as part of a Cantrip as an extra feature. So double-stat can be handled either via Hexblade, or using Cantrips.

    At level 11, maybe add Repeating Blast. "If you make an attack as part of casting a cantrip, you attack one additional time.

    5d10+40 for EB (67.5), 8d10+16 for Fire Bolt (60), 8d8+32 for GFB (70) plus 6d8+26 (53) splash assuming +3 weapon.

    A level 2 Dip in warlock deals 4d10+8 (30) with EB, 4d10+2 (24) with FB, 4d8+10 (28) with GFB plus 3d8+7 (20.5) splash.

    ---

    Warlocks prior to level 9 deal less damage, but have a free invocation.

    At level 9 the warlock is dealing the same damage with EB: 2d10+10. GFB deals 2d8+10 and 1d8+9 splash assuming an 18 casting stat and +1 weapon.

    At level 11, the warlock damage goes up compared to before. 4d10+20 instead of 3d10+15 with EB (42), and 6d8+20/4d8+18 splash (47 and 36 splash) GFB, and 6d10+10 (43) FB.

    Code:
              Old                New                     Stats
    Level    EB+AB     EB     GFB/SEC     FB       CHA     WEAPON    INVOK
    1         5.5      5.5    7.5/3       5.5      16      +0         -
    2         8.5      7.5    9.5/5       7.5      16      +1         2
    5        19.0     17.0    17/11.5     14       18      +1         3
    7        19.0     19.0    18/12.5     15       18      +1         4
    9        19.0     20.0    19/13.5     16       18      +1         5
    11       28.5     42.0    49/36       43       18      +2         5
    13       31.5     46.0    53/40       45       20      +2         6
    15       31.5     50.0    57/42       47       20      +3         7
    17       42.0     67.5    68/53       60       20      +3         8
    So maybe a bit too much power spike at 11. On the other hand, I've seen fighter/archer/great weapon builds...
    Last edited by Yakk; 2019-09-19 at 12:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast (& Other Melee Cantrip Invocations)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    I don't see a need to make Warlock damage curve identical to what it is today, down to the dipping.

    Change Agonizing Blast to a class feature with different rules.

    Starting at level 2, when you deal damage to a creature with a cantrip, it deals additional damage equal to the number of invocations you know.

    This makes low level Warlocks weaker, and high level single-class Warlocks stronger.

    Make the Pact of the Blade able to use charisma to attack whenever you make an attack as part of a Cantrip as an extra feature. So double-stat can be handled either via Hexblade, or using Cantrips.

    At level 11, maybe add Repeating Blast. "If you make an attack as part of casting a cantrip, you attack one additional time.

    5d10+40 for EB (67.5), 8d10+16 for Fire Bolt (60), 8d8+32 for GFB (70) plus 6d8+26 (53) splash assuming +3 weapon.

    A level 2 Dip in warlock deals 4d10+8 (30) with EB, 4d10+2 (24) with FB, 4d8+10 (28) with GFB plus 3d8+7 (20.5) splash.
    Umm...

    Those numbers are kinda high for at-will attacks, especially at really long ranges.

    Like, assuming a +3 weapon (and that everything hits)? A 20th level Sword 'n' Board Fighter (Dueling) is dealing 4d8+40 damage per round (58). A 20th level Polearm Master + GWF/GWM Fighter with a +3 polearm is dealing 4d10+1d4+40 (68.2), unless they take a big ol' penalty to their attack rolls (and expected damage) to boost that to (118.2)╣. Assuming you picked up a +3 Wand of the War Mage (which is the same rarity as a +3 weapon), your cantrips will be dealing WAY more damage than the Fighter, and you have a mess of utility options/built-in damage boosts on top of that.

    Assuming that they're attacking AC 19 with their +14 to hit, their normal expected DPR is around 54.56, and their DPR using GWM is 65.01. For reference, your version of GFB would be expected to deal roughly 98.4 damage split across two people in that situation. The numbers are rough because I couldn't be bothered to factor in bonus damage from crits, which doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Default Re: Matching Green Flame Blade to Eldritch Blast (& Other Melee Cantrip Invocations)

    Instead of making new invocations for specific cantrips, why not alter the existing ones so they work with more than just Eldritch Blast?

    Agonising blast: Cha bonus to cantrip damage rolls
    Eldritch Spear: double cantrip range
    Grasp of Hadar: 10' pull on any ranged attack roll cantrip
    Repelling blast: 10' push on any melee attack roll cantrip
    Lance of lethargy: creatures that take damage from your cantrips have their movement slowed by 10'

    EB is still a clear choice but the other options become more worthwhile by comparison. Who knows, you might actually see a warlock take a second look at some of the other options like sword burst.

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