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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I'd have preferred to see this thread go into how to get the most out of the PDK, rather than the series of posts slamming that archetype. If one is trying to optimize a given sub class, it isn't necessary to go on and on about how a different class is better, etc.

    Can we get back to that?

    How to get the most out of the PDK?
    Thing is? There really isn't anything to optimize here, other than "make a Fighter the way you would normally". Unless you count "beg at least one other player to play a class that gets strong weapon attacks, like a Rogue or Paladin". Other than a very situational heal (which solely scales with your Fighter level, so no tricks there) and "expertise in a single specific skill", you don't get anything that could be potentially fiddled around with until 10th level.

    There's nothing to work with here.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    It's something at least. Maybe that can get to an actual Sage Advice at some point. It would give the Banneret a much-needed buff.
    Unfortunately if JC said that you can hear while unconscious, he's contradicting what his rulebook says.

    Per pg292, being unconscious makes you unaware of your surroundings. In English, the word hear means to become aware of by hearing. More generally, the definition of perceive requires awareness, too.

    I would love to see the Banneret get such a buff, but as long as it's just some random comment in an interview it's like Max said.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    One possible optimization point is that with a two-level dip in Warlock for Tome (or Hexblade), you could have a primarily Charisma-leaning Fighter that is a good face.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    There's nothing to work with here.
    Quoted for truth. With Champion, you at least have racial options and weapon choices to work around with your expanded crit range and fast healing below half. This? None of your abilities interact with anything on your character sheet, except the expertise. How do you optimize variables you can't touch?

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    One possible optimization point is that with a two-level dip in Warlock for Tome (or Hexblade), you could have a primarily Charisma-leaning Fighter that is a good face.
    Three levels for Tome, OR you could do Hexblade 1/Rogue 1 (for the same Expertise PDK could give you)/Battlemaster 18.

    Just as good of a face. But a much better Fighter.
    Last edited by Fable Wright; 2019-09-18 at 05:21 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    BTW, does the name "Purple Dragon Knight" remind anyone else here of Basil Broketail? Every time I hear it I think of the big, wild Purple Green dragon who fights in the dragon legion. He's almost literally a Purple Dragon Knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    It's something at least. Maybe that can get to an actual Sage Advice at some point. It would give the Banneret a much-needed buff.
    I think you'd need to actually revise the PHB text for the Unconscious condition. Frankly, unless Green Ronin says otherwise, I will continue suspect that the "see or hear" requirement on Rallying Cry was added specifically because to prevent PDKs from shouting PCs back into consciousness. Remember that Crawford didn't write the PDK rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Thing is? There really isn't anything to optimize here, other than "make a Fighter the way you would normally". Unless you count "beg at least one other player to play a class that gets strong weapon attacks, like a Rogue or Paladin". Other than a very situational heal (which solely scales with your Fighter level, so no tricks there) and "expertise in a single specific skill", you don't get anything that could be potentially fiddled around with until 10th level.

    There's nothing to work with here.
    I think there is something to work with. As mentioned upthread, there's a nice synergy between the Healer feat (go from 0 HP to 1 HP with an action, an unlimited number of times) and Second Wind (heal [fighter level] HP as a bonus action once per short rest, if able to see or hear). There's also a nice synergy between Inspiring Surge and big-weapon-damage attacks.

    Therefore, a PDK is more appropriate than usual in a party where:

    (1) You have at least one PC with the Healer feat, possibly the PDK themself;
    (2) You have a ranged Rogue in the party, or a melee Rogue who is for some reason not using his reaction on Uncanny Dodge;
    (3) You have somebody who likes to Polymorph PCs into gigantic creatures with huge attacks, like Brontosaurs or Giant Apes;
    (4) You have an Eldritch Smite Bladelock, a smite-oriented Paladin, or a GWM/Sharpshooter in the party;
    (5) You have a relatively high-AC party where 5-15 HP worth of healing goes farther than usual.

    especially with some combination of the above.

    Things an PDK can potentially do which synergize well with these kinds of parties:

    (1) Take the Healer feat;
    (2) Learn how to grapple/prone (e.g. Prodigy (Athletics)) so that those allies will have advantage on their big attacks, including the bonus attacks that you grant them;
    (3) Play very aggressively and paint a big target on your armor so that enemies are motivated to attack you instead of your buddies.

    ...that's all I got, but it's not nothing.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-09-18 at 05:36 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    One possible optimization point is that with a two-level dip in Warlock for Tome (or Hexblade), you could have a primarily Charisma-leaning Fighter that is a good face.
    So, you have the warlock doing a brunt of the work with support from the main class fighter while the build is being dragged down by the fighter subclass?

    Optimizing the PDK means focusing on it, you aren't focusing on the PDK and with this MC, the PDK goes by the wayside and is still terriblr.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Healer has nothing on (Greater) Dragonmarks in terms of interaction with Rally/Surge

    Ebberon Bannerettes are actually pretty good.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Discreetly change the wording of your features when the DM isn't looking.

    Rallying Cry: When you take the Attack action, you can forego your attack to allow one ally within 30 feet that can see and hear you to make one weapon attack. If you are able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

    Inspiring Surge: When you use your Second Wind, Action Surge or Indomitable feature you can choose to also grant the same benefits of the feature to one ally within 30 feet that can see and hear you. Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

    Bulwark: As a bonus action you can rally up to three allied creatures within 60 feet that can see and hear you. These creatures can use their reaction to spend a number of hit die up to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) and move up to half their speed. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

    Bonus points if you can change the names too!

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    BTW, does the name "Purple Dragon Knight" remind anyone else here of Basil Broketail? Every time I hear it I think of the big, wild Purple Green dragon who fights in the dragon legion. He's almost literally a Purple Dragon Knight.
    I haven't read those books, but based on the majority of comments (... er, well, the ones that actually discussed the subclass instead of the near-derail over WoTC surveys), it seems like the PDK subclass ends up more like this purple dragon:

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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Things an PDK can potentially do which synergize well with these kinds of parties:

    (1) Take the Healer feat;
    (2) Learn how to grapple/prone (e.g. Prodigy (Athletics)) so that those allies will have advantage on their big attacks, including the bonus attacks that you grant them;
    (3) Play very aggressively and paint a big target on your armor so that enemies are motivated to attack you instead of your buddies.

    ...that's all I got, but it's not nothing.
    It says a lot of how bad the Banneret is when the Battlemaster can literally do everything it can do and more at level 3.
    1) BM can take Healer feat too
    2) Trip attack
    3) Goading attack
    4) Have a rogue in your party? Commanders Strike and you get to keep your Action Surge. Win! Also, you don't have to wait til Lv10.

    Or just play a Crown Paladin. Its the same fluff. Banneret is a nothing subclass. I dont enjoy bashing stuff but, it is what it is.
    Last edited by Jerrykhor; 2019-09-18 at 09:56 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I think there is something to work with. As mentioned upthread, there's a nice synergy between the Healer feat (go from 0 HP to 1 HP with an action, an unlimited number of times) and Second Wind (heal [fighter level] HP as a bonus action once per short rest, if able to see or hear). There's also a nice synergy between Inspiring Surge and big-weapon-damage attacks.

    Therefore, a PDK is more appropriate than usual in a party where:

    (1) You have at least one PC with the Healer feat, possibly the PDK themself;
    (2) You have a ranged Rogue in the party, or a melee Rogue who is for some reason not using his reaction on Uncanny Dodge;
    (3) You have somebody who likes to Polymorph PCs into gigantic creatures with huge attacks, like Brontosaurs or Giant Apes;
    (4) You have an Eldritch Smite Bladelock, a smite-oriented Paladin, or a GWM/Sharpshooter in the party;
    (5) You have a relatively high-AC party where 5-15 HP worth of healing goes farther than usual.

    especially with some combination of the above.

    Things an PDK can potentially do which synergize well with these kinds of parties:

    (1) Take the Healer feat;
    (2) Learn how to grapple/prone (e.g. Prodigy (Athletics)) so that those allies will have advantage on their big attacks, including the bonus attacks that you grant them;
    (3) Play very aggressively and paint a big target on your armor so that enemies are motivated to attack you instead of your buddies.

    ...that's all I got, but it's not nothing.
    Assuming Crawford is right about being able to use it on unconscious people (which, honestly, I disagree with, mostly because it feels really weird for unconscious people to still be able to hear), then Healer doesn't do anything extra for you. I will concede that I didn't notice that synergy, so I was wrong (or at least hyperbolic) when I said that there was nothing.

    But the rest of it isn't meaningfully distinct from how you'd normally build a Fighter. Healer + Rallying Cry is really the only unique combo they've got - it's not like you have easy access to ways to improve other people's damage or anything. Honestly, 1/rest is just too seldom to really build around. Like, I'm legitimately surprised that Fighters don't get more uses of Second Wind.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrykhor View Post
    It says a lot of how bad the Banneret is when the Battlemaster can literally do everything it can do and more at level 3.
    1) BM can take Healer feat too
    2) Trip attack
    3) Goading attack
    4) Have a rogue in your party? Commanders Strike and you get to keep your Action Surge. Win! Also, you don't have to wait til Lv10.

    Or just play a Crown Paladin. Its the same fluff. Banneret is a nothing subclass. I dont enjoy bashing stuff but, it is what it is.
    To address this.

    1) Yeah. I'm also not sold on healer. For different reasons. (Just flipped through my notes on early modules/drop tables. We are in double digit healing potions tier1)
    2) It's like a shove! Except we need to roll twice on an attack roll+Save instead of just shlapping with athletics. The extra die is nice? (It's great economy and a solid maneuver, it's just... not nearly as reliable as backhanding things)
    3)(I actually like goading, confused why it's here)
    4) Ok this is legit the worst of the "go hit a guy rouge" abilities as we're dropping 22 damage every time we use it. It comes earlier and is spamable but... yeah. We're just not using this before tier 3 for any productive reason. At level 11 we need to use this 3 times to deal more damage than one Surge+/Orders Demand and it is never a good Nova pick. It's not good. By the time Commanders becomes outright better than Surge+ we get to double tap. PDK has problems with being feature light but Surge+ and Second+ as stand alone ability's are honestly stellar.

    (To defend Second+ it's adding a whopping 9 point heal at 3rd level on a BA. I see a lot of "optimal use" arguments against this ability. We're slapping 27ish hp down on the party a day. We can waste 12 points here and still be on par with aid. Who cares if we waste a bit. It also scales extremely well at 9 points/level. As for the whole "wake up" use... or not... who cares? Double digit healing pots tier 1. Non-Issue)

    Assuming BM is to PDK as EK is to BM... yeah why are we talking about BM? EK can be built to yadda yadda replicate yadda yadda (but it's too busy swagteleporting and laughing because "get a maneuver that lets you fly scrub").

    Assuming PDK is as bad as folks think (it's not) playing with bad-class-charOP is the true joy of charOP.
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-09-18 at 11:30 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Assuming Crawford is right about being able to use it on unconscious people (which, honestly, I disagree with, mostly because it feels really weird for unconscious people to still be able to hear), then Healer doesn't do anything extra for you. I will concede that I didn't notice that synergy, so I was wrong (or at least hyperbolic) when I said that there was nothing.

    But the rest of it isn't meaningfully distinct from how you'd normally build a Fighter. Healer + Rallying Cry is really the only unique combo they've got - it's not like you have easy access to ways to improve other people's damage or anything. Honestly, 1/rest is just too seldom to really build around. Like, I'm legitimately surprised that Fighters don't get more uses of Second Wind.
    In defense of the hearing while unconscious, it's like when someone is woken up by a loud noise. You aren't aware in the sense that you can really process the information, but it can still wake you up.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    I think optimising this class is all about race choice and equipment. I've broken it down to a few steps

    1) select Dragonborn
    2) buy a warhorse, barding, armour, shield and a lance
    3) buy a bucket of purple paint (might need some DM but in, or just rp the heck out of the persuasion. Otherwise, I think prestidigitation or swimmer OP asleep like that can help).
    4) apply barding to horse, lance, shield and armour to yourself.
    5) apply bucket of purple paint to yourself.
    6) if you ran out of gold before you bought helmet, use bucket.

    Result: you are now the Purplest Dragonest Knightest Fighter you can be. Triple helix optimisation!

    If you have some weird other metric for specialisation, maybe take a glance at Inspiring Leader, Shield Master, Healer and Prodigy: Athletics. Thematically Glamour Bard is a good fit and would also give you Expertise. And more importantly you can be one while still being a very purple, very dragon, very knight, fighter.
    (EDIT: typos... And forgot to add Healer to the list for the weird ones).
    Last edited by Skylivedk; 2019-09-19 at 02:00 AM.
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    And you're also a Dragonborn, one of the strongest races! Don't forget to take the Linguist feat to get maximum use of your Persuasion expertise...

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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    But the rest of it isn't meaningfully distinct from how you'd normally build a Fighter. Healer + Rallying Cry is really the only unique combo they've got - it's not like you have easy access to ways to improve other people's damage or anything. Honestly, 1/rest is just too seldom to really build around. Like, I'm legitimately surprised that Fighters don't get more uses of Second Wind.
    Three remarks:

    (1) Optimizing builds is one kind of optimization, but optimizing parties and optimizing tactics are other forms of optimization.

    (2) A grappling specialization is in fact meaningfully distinct build from other kinds of fighters. It's not a Sharpshooter and it likely uses a shield at least some of the time instead of a greatsword with GWM or a halberd with GWM/PAM.

    (3) The combo with rallying cry is 1/short rest, but Healer is not 1/short rest, it's unlimited, as long as you're only healing up to 1 HP. Every once in a while you can Healer + Rallying Cry to keep someone up for longer, but you do pop-up healing all day unless the DM has tweaked the rules to prevent it. (I think pop-up healing is stupid so I do in fact use negative HP, and this combo wouldn't work at my table.)

    Does that make the PDK a mechanically archetype? Still no, but you're still optimizing something.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-09-19 at 12:47 AM.

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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    And you're also a Dragonborn, one of the strongest races! Don't forget to take the Linguist feat to get maximum use of your Persuasion expertise...
    Don't we use blue text around here for stuff like this?

    I hand to get to the "Linguist" part before I caught on.

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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    In defense of the hearing while unconscious, it's like when someone is woken up by a loud noise. You aren't aware in the sense that you can really process the information, but it can still wake you up.
    That's a nice way to look at this. I'll go with your defense of Crawford on this one.
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Party-wide optimization of the banneret attempt:

    Be a sword/shield frontliner with 2 rogue or paladin allies that attack in melee. The allies should be hill dwarves or take the Tough feat and/or have high Con so they have plenty of HP. Now you have allies that will stick in melee with you, can benefit from the healing you offer, and will nova off your action surge.

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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    with 2 rogue or paladin allies that attack in melee.
    That's a weird way of saying Paladin 2/Arcane Trickster X :P

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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Ah yes. The DEX/CHA/INT/STR build.
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    Default Re: A Defense of the Banneret: A Mechanical Guide to a Supporting Fighter

    Okay so convince your allies to spec heavily into massive burst damage, and be willing to use your heal at a mediocre situation, and you've got yourself a level 10 useful banneret

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