OOTS #1180 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

But 99% of the real racist people you interact with every day don’t behave like comic book villains.

And 78% of statistics are made up on the spot. We are heading into a conversation that I believe is not within forum bounds. I thank you for your insights and no longer respond to this line of discussion.

[Fyraltari]

I think The Pilgrim's point was that being willing to have sex with people of a particular group in no way proves you do not have any prejudiced attitudes toward that group.

[KorvinStarmast]

*scrubbed* I fixed that for you, and I generally agree. That data point by itself shows us nothing. More info is needed to arrive at a conclusion regarding a given person's attitudes and behaviors.

[The Pilgrim]

You may be surprised to learn that there are also racist sorts who will not even consider such a liaison, even an abusive one, due to race: as I was growing up I encountered no few people like that - but that's some IRL stuff that we'd best not drag into this discussion that might be getting close to the edge of forum rules anyway.

That kind of segregrationist crap happens when the dominant etnicithy loses dominance. Usually after losing a war. That's not Tarquin's position. He is dominant. And thus, at ease having his dominant status validated by being surrounded of underlings from the stock intended for serfdom (in his worldview).

Also notice than when he gave one real shot at having a traditional family, with children and stuff, he aimed for a proper fair blue eyed blonde. Even though such woman was his opposite alignment.

[Fyraltari]

*scrub the post, scrub the quote*
First, don't do that. Don't put words in people's mouths... keyboard... post, you get it.

Second, do that even less when it's wrong. I said it didn't prove one thing, I don't need to say it doesn't prove its opposite because if it did it would immediately disprove the thing. "It doesn't prove A or non-A" is the exact same as "It doesn't prove A".

[CriticalFailure]

I think it would be hard to make any points about racism with actual human races in comic unless that kind of racism either got introduced into the comic or explicitly mentioned in the discussion about tropes. Tarquin's sexism is clear but given that the Order has one female character and that character a lot of the typical story lines given to female characters I don't think that aspect really comes across either. (I love Haley and her story but I will definitely continue to imagine V as a female character).

[drazen]

You are not alone. Rich didn't communicate it very well *on screen* since I missed it to on the first read through.

It's tough to do well. Diverse stories are great, but what isn't great is when someone becomes adamant their story must be 100% great solely because it's diverse/"woke"/whatever and all the critics are just big mean racists. No... sometimes someone just wrote crap. Not because it was diverse, but because it just wasn't a very good story and it ended up being preachy and ham-fisted.

The Giant, thankfully, seems to have gone the other way on this arc, perhaps even a bit too far, burying it so far in the subtext that it's only there if you actively go fishing for it. I didn't get a racial vibe from Tarquin, just an arrogant blowhard control freak vibe, which is a thing that happens regardless of race. Personally, I always took Tarquin to be a commentary on a highly charismatic serial abuser, rather than "white guy who can't stand not being in charge." Especially because Haley had good instincts about him and she seems like the character who could sniff that sort of thing out when others couldn't.

I think the story works much better through that lens, specifically because the OOTS world is pretty tolerant except for monster/hero species-ism, and even that is portrayed as not exactly a full-on seething resentment (based on the comments of

Spoiler

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the hobgoblins Tingtox and Pangtok

in How The Paladin Got His Scar) except when it's a bit more overt. Aside from the dwarf assassins at the inn, most of the societal conflict came much later in the strip's run. The political stuff with the Western Continent starts in the late 600's which is still more than half-way through the online content, and Azure City didn't have a major societal deconstruction until O-Chul's backstory (as the bits on the boat seemed to be commentary about society AFTER it collapses). My point is just that a lot of the lead-up material doesn't really indicate to someone to be looking for full on societal allegories, but rather for interpersonal ones. That's just my take and how I've been reading the strip.

Perhaps the Tarquin bit is another blind-spot interpretation like Malack's killing chamber, because at the time, I too thought that was a way of the author outright saying, almost as if in frustration with the audience, "Oh, you all think Malack is not pure evil? I am going to make a comparison that NO ONE can deny!" ... because, if I recall, a lot of people on the forums were Malack defenders and fans up until that point or not long before it. Especially coming on the heels of Tarquin's comment about not understanding why people find Thog loveable, no matter how many people he kills -- it just seemed like the same sort of little author's statement to the audience.

[KorvinStarmast]

First, don't do that.

It happens on this forum - "fixed that or you" - with great frequency. The bold was used to identify the words that were not yours, and were provided since you only presented half of a thought. If that was unclear to you, I apologize.

[Fyraltari]

It happens on this forum - "fixed that or you" - with great frequency. The bold was used to identify the words that were not yours, and were provided since you only presented half of a thought. If that was unclear to you, I apologize.

I know it's common. That doesn't mean I have to like it. Don't go around putting words in other people's mouths.

Also as I explained I said exactly what I meant and your little modification did not add anything.

[Jasdoif]

(Tarquin had a different role. As The Giant explained in the comments of BRitF, the confrontation between Tarquin and Elan was more of an allegorical confrontation of the white male that refuses to accept white males no longer run the show, and the white male who is fine with the new reality in which he shares the show with all other demographic groups).

He... what? I didn't get that at all from the online strips.

That’s a bit of an exaggeration of of The Giant’s commentary who simply stated that it wasn’t entirely a coincidence that Tarquin was losing his marbles over Elan not being in charge and Elan being the only white male human on the group.

Precisely. It's hardly uncommon for a character to hold more than one role, just as it's hardly uncommon for a character to be involved in more than one arc at the same time, just as it's hardly uncommon for a scene to have more than one purpose. Sometimes, one of those purposes is "achieving the semi-tangible mental image your imagination came up with that you feel was neat, and which motivated your creativity towards achieving". Similarly, I don't think the text ever spelled out that Trigak was named for the speech in his last(?) appearance.

[Petrocorus]

The problem with Right-Eye's daughter as a cliffhanger is that the reaction of a significant portion of the readers (those who haven't read SoD) would be "OK?". They don't know she exists, and they barely know Right-Eye exists. So introducing her without being able to contextualize her until the next book would fall flat for many readers IMO.

Even people who read SoD would probably need to reread it.

That depends on wether his agenda is actually what Redcloak thinks it is. We could have a scene where Durkon and Roy discuss Durkon's mission and say something along the lines of "It should go well because all he wants is the goblins getting a fair share so now h can barter with Thor" or something and then a cut-away to the Dark One doing something that shades a completely different light on his character like the previous cliffhanger did for Hel.

There is going to be a big hard negotiation on several stuffs. Notably Azure City / Gobbotopia. I don't see neither the Southern Gods nor the Dark One being willing to give up on this. Thor said Rat was furious, for instance.

No worries, his skills as a writer have grown as he's done this comic, so I think that was part of the growing process.

I believe the Giant is very skilled. He's a master when it comes to tie plot thread in a fun, consistent and surprising way. Seriously his mastery of plot thread organisation could put a lot of very famous writers to shame.
And he's usually very good at conveying his ideas. Which explain my surprise.

He had an idea in his head, and to him that point was clear but it wasn't necessarily clear to all of the readers since Roy has been the leader of the OoTS since strip 0001. It was a bit jarring to me, as I read the story, to see Tarqin - who has not seen Elan in ages, and whose last contact with Elan was when he was age 9 and very much the one who was bullied by Nale, and not the "take charge" son - make this assumption that since Elan was his son me must have been the leader.

I always see this as Tarquin assuming Elan is the leader because as his son he has to be awesome and obviously he is. This is clearly an effect of Tarquin's massive ego for me.

Tarquin is both the archetypal overbearing father who want his sons to follow his step and who is obsessed with what reflection they cast on him and the archetypal absent father who try to compensate by overdoing things when he's reunited with his son. With the addition of an ego the size of the Snarl, and self-awareness about actually being a comic book villain.

Now concerning the racism topic, i'm out.
I asked for help seeing this subtext in the comic proper and this has been fruitless and now the conversation is fully going into IRL racism and how IRL racists behave. This is both pushing the boundaries of the forum rules and a waste of time since nobody is going to be convince by anybody else on this matter.

[Algeh]

The problem with Right-Eye's daughter as a cliffhanger is that the reaction of a significant portion of the readers (those who haven't read SoD) would be "OK?". They don't know she exists, and they barely know Right-Eye exists. So introducing her without being able to contextualize her until the next book would fall flat for many readers IMO.

Eh, if it happens it's not going to be someone introducing themselves as Right-Eye's daughter, it's either a goblin chick revealing she is related to Redcloak, or her doing something interesting (investigating the rift, bursting into dwarven lands asking for the Order, attacking Gobbotopia, offering help to Hinjo, watching Team Evil, these are just the ones that popped into my head while writing this I'm sure there are better ways) both things enhanced by reading SoD but still interesting to those who don't read the forums/read SoD (cause reading these forums are a good way to figure out that Redcloak's niece/Right-Eye's daughter is a thing).

I could see an introduction similar to the one Miko got in 120 if he wanted to go that route. (By "similar" I mean "in about that much detail" rather than "specifically sent to investigate a similar situation by a similar authority figure.")

[Squire Doodad]

I could see an introduction similar to the one Miko got in 120 if he wanted to go that route. (By "similar" I mean "in about that much detail" rather than "specifically sent to investigate a similar situation by a similar authority figure.")

In general though,

Spoiler: I don't think it actually needs this since I'm not talking plot points, but whatever

Show

Redcloak's Niece

as an entity feels more like a "character of the week" more than a last minute reveal. And on the thread, she's basically a running gag, much like MitD's true identity.

[Schroeswald]

In general though,

Spoiler: I don't think it actually needs this since I'm not talking plot points, but whatever

Show

Redcloak's Niece

as an entity feels more like a "character of the week" more than a last minute reveal. And on the thread, she's basically a running gag, much like MitD's true identity.

I think we will either never hear or see her again or she’ll play a major plot relevant role in the next book, and there is nothing in between.

But everyone knows the MitD’s true identity will be revealed, so if the comparison is apt then the latter must be true.

[bunsen_h]

I get the nagging suspicion that there needs to be another strip or two that resolves Hilgya/Kudzu to close out the book. Sigdi and Durkon are off screen as the strip ends; I think that the next strip will see the four of them interact.

I've been wondering if Hilgya is so self-centred that she might leave Kudzu behind. She named him after a fast-growing invasive weed; how much does she want to keep that child?

[Asmotherion]

Well, well... Roy's Lawfulness apparently has a limit :lol:

Sigdi not getting a new arm before they go?

Technically they're in Dwarven Lands. it would be against the Law NOT to drink! :P

[Squire Doodad]

Technically they're in Dwarven Lands. it would be against the Law NOT to drink! :P

Dwarven Law dictates that the skies above their lands are not theirs.
Thus, law abiding citizens are obligated to take a swig in their free time as a form of self-defense; after all, Dwarven Gravitational theory states that enough ale will make anything fall down.

[RatElemental]

Thor said Rat was furious, for instance.

I still am!

Is this joke too old now?

[factotum]

I've been wondering if Hilgya is so self-centred that she might leave Kudzu behind. She named him after a fast-growing invasive weed; how much does she want to keep that child?

She named him that mainly to annoy other dwarves. I have not seen even the remotest hint that Hilgya doesn't love and want to keep Kudzu--she would have just dropped him off with the clerics of Thor rather than taking him into battle with her if that wasn't the case.

[Squire Doodad]

I still am!

Is this joke too old now?

Nah, it's still good.

[Jasdoif]

I still am!

Is this joke too old now?

Nah, it's still good.

Seems a bit elementary.

[Cerlis]

I've been wondering if Hilgya is so self-centred that she might leave Kudzu behind. She named him after a fast-growing invasive weed; how much does she want to keep that child?

enough to kill for him. if anything he seems to be the only thing she cares about other than herself.

most dwarves are named after dirt, so i dont see the problem. his name is just a pun based on the trope

"A Kudzu Plot occurs when a story leaves so many dangling Plot Threads that it's extremely difficult to follow and needlessly complicated. A story arc may be resolved, but it will usually create more unanswered questions in the process. This can also happen multiple times within the same story. "

its not like he's going to stop making charaters with dumb puns for names just because the overal themes and arcs have been slightly less tongue in cheek.

There is no reason in character (necessarily) for him to be named Kudzu, or not named it , just like there is no reason Tarquinn is named that way, nor any reason Roy is named that way.

its a one off joke referencing the fact in a semi self depreciating way, that one wouldnt expect THAT plot thread to show up again

[Peelee]

enough to kill for him. if anything he seems to be the only thing she cares about other than herself.

most dwarves are named after dirt, so i dont see the problem. his name is just a pun based on the trope

"A Kudzu Plot occurs when a story leaves so many dangling Plot Threads that it's extremely difficult to follow and needlessly complicated. A story arc may be resolved, but it will usually create more unanswered questions in the process. This can also happen multiple times within the same story. "

The Giant has openly stated he doesn't read TV Tropes, so I doubt he would be aware of that one (largely because I also don't read it and was unaware if that one until people claimed it was the basis for the name).

He was named after a plant because dwarves largely dislike plants and Hilgya largely dislikes dwarves. As the comic pretty plainly shows.

[hroþila]

The Giant has openly stated he doesn't read TV Tropes

You can tell because he's making comics and books instead of being stuck reading TV Tropes.

[Fyraltari]

You can tell because he's making comics and books instead of being stuck reading TV Tropes.

I feel personally attacked by this.
What’s this? Unfinished fanfiction? You have no proof!

[danielxcutter]

I feel personally attacked by this.
What’s this? Unfinished fanfiction? You have no proof!

Oh don't worry, it's not like they were just talking about you.

[Belkar Rocks]

A new team member and Belkar shows once again why he's my favorite character. This comic has it all!

[The MunchKING]

He was named after a plant because dwarves largely dislike plants and Hilgya largely dislikes dwarves. As the comic pretty plainly shows.

Also, it's a fast-growing invasive species that is REALLY REALLY hard to kill; as that comic also comments on.

So the same thing that makes it a cool descriptor for a Kudzu plot, is also why it is a cool descriptor for a kid.

[Grey Watcher]

The Giant has openly stated he doesn't read TV Tropes, so I doubt he would be aware of that one (largely because I also don't read it and was unaware if that one until people claimed it was the basis for the name).

He was named after a plant because dwarves largely dislike plants and Hilgya largely dislikes dwarves. As the comic pretty plainly shows.

In fairness, it's possible that the phrase "kudzu plot" has metastasized into the broader culture's vocabulary.* Kinda like how I think the Giant once speculated that he went with "lampshade hanging" rather than "signals from Fred" because of a vague sense that it was the better-known term, due in no small part to TV Tropes.

*(Or not, I was quite surprised at someone being confused and surprised at the use of "Your Mileage May Vary" in any context other than as the fine print in an ad for a car.)

[Petrocorus]

You can tell because he's making comics and books instead of being stuck reading TV Tropes.

TV Trope will ruin your life.

*(Or not, I was quite surprised at someone being confused and surprised at the use of "Your Mileage May Vary" in any context other than as the fine print in an ad for a car.)

Wait.. I thought YMMV was common on forums? Or only among geeks?