OOTS #1180 - The Discussion Thread

[Petrocorus]

Her statement is also because she's angry at Durkon for assuming it was easy for her.

Yeah, i really think people are over-interpretating that one single panel.
That panel what to show us that she try to hold to her husband as long as possible and how she lost her arm. I really don't think it gives any insight on her view about getting her arm regenerated.

She explicitly said that she didn't get a new arm because the only time she had the means to do it in her life, she used this means to save 5 peoples, and that she never got that kind of money any more.
That moment Durkon offered to regenerate her, she refused for practical and rational reasons that she explain explicitly.

If Durkon offer to regenerate her arm, while having the spell prepared, the spell slot, and the time to do it, i'd bet she will gladly accept it. Her other arm will not disappear anyway.

[Radar]

Right? Speaking of which, I wonder if liquor is considered some kind of sin or Evil beverage in Dwarven Lands. "Och, ye haf perfectly good beer brewed for ye, bless'd by the Gods, and ye go an' distill it? Blasphemy!"

Well, you can get perfectly good liquor in other ways which dwarves might appreciate. More precisely you can use fractional freezing to strengthen alcohol drinks without loosing the taste. In fact, it will be even more flavorful then before.

[DeliaP]

Hmm....

Minrah's status.

Minrah has significant fighter levels as well as at least 5 levels of cleric. She's not a pushover. But she's clearly not going to add a great deal to a party that has Durkon and Roy. (I say this as someone who once got saddled with a dwarven fighter/wizard cohort who was 3 levels below the party. I spent every cheesy optimisation trick I could find to make them something other than a liability, and still the only reason they didn't turn into a greasespot every combat was the DM liked the character and fudged the monsters reactions)

Bandana was introduced during BRitF, and played a significant support role in UD, despite obviously not being able to hold her own at the party's level in a fight. Why? Character interaction and plot. Minrah is funny and has a distinctive voice. She'd obviously want to come along. Maybe the Giant just likes writing her dialogue?

Minrah's romantic status.

What? Seriously? Someone actually raised this? And if Minrah wasn't female this would have been considered a reason for her inclusion? Sure, whatever.

Curly the Vampire Threat

There are significantly more powerful clerics than Minrah in Firmament (probably not more powerful than Durkon, though). Minrah was just the priest on the night-shift. Now that the priests of Firmament know there is a vampire on the loose, she isn't needed to protect against Curly.

Sigdi's Arm

I can see this going either way. I agree with this:

#Sigdi has lived more of her life without that arm than with it, I'd give her even odds of having long since accepted her disability as part of her identity and not being interested in being "healed".

and it's even more part of her identity when the loss of her arm was also so bound up to the manner of her loss of Tenrin.

Durkon may have become a priest because he wanted to restore her arm, but he'd already become a (low-level) priest before he ever really began to understand about what really happened. Hell, it wasn't until after he'd become a priest that he even talked to Sigdi about the fact that he knew how his father died. Given he only became high enough level to cast the relevant spell long after he left dwarven lands, there's no reason to suppose Durkon and Sigdi have ever had a serious discussion about whether (and why or why not) Sigdi had really wanted her arm restored. The point is, Sigdi had never told Durkon about how she lost her arm and what it meant to her. She just smiled and nodded when small-child Durkon said that one day he'd fix it, and there's no reason to suppose anything changed as he grew up (parents being frequently unable to see when it has come to the point they need to talk to their adult children differently....)

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, i really think people are over-interpretating that one single panel.
That panel what to show us that she try to hold to her husband as long as possible and how she lost her arm. I really don't think it gives any insight on her view about getting her arm regenerated.

She explicitly said that she didn't get a new arm because the only time she had the means to do it in her life, she used this means to save 5 peoples, and that she never got that kind of money any more.
That moment Durkon offered to regenerate her, she refused for practical and rational reasons that she explain explicitly.

If Durkon offer to regenerate her arm, while having the spell prepared, the spell slot, and the time to do it, i'd bet she will gladly accept it. Her other arm will not disappear anyway.

She might accept it, but in a broad sense Sigidi's half of her entire life has been built upon the moment she lost her arm. So many things happened - Durkon, her "Cousins", everything and everyone she has met in the decades following - all of this is embodied by her lost arm.
Would she find the addition of a second arm useful for day to day life? Yes, definitely. Is she ready to come to terms with everything she has done? I don't want to answer.

[Erys]

Her statement is also because she's angry at Durkon for assuming it was easy for her.

As far as bolded: I mean, not literally. But if we're speaking metaphorically-- I've already said I think Sigdi is practical, not sentimental, so an argument that she's more sentimental than practical isn't going to sway my mind. And I think it would be a disappointing denial for Durkon of a goal he's had most of his life to be denied it out of sentimentality.

You can't be both?

I think she finds practical excuses for holding on to her deepest internal sentiment.

Durkon would understand.

[MossyMeow]

I honestly don't know how to feel about Minrah joining the party. I do think it's fair (and not sexist) to bring up the possibility of her being a romantic interest, especially since she is in many ways similar to Celia, both being supporting characters who provided a small but important role in the narrative. I could see her getting with Durkon OR with Bandana, but if I had to choose, I'd go with the latter.

Now, the real question: What would their ship name be?

[BarakDeathBlade]

I just want to point out, you can see some ale Belkar is drinking.

Dwarven ale is much darker than that pale Azure City stuff that lead to The Event in 316.

[MossyMeow]

I just want to point out, you can see some ale Belkar is drinking.

Dwarven ale is much darker than that pale Azure City stuff that lead to The Event in 316.

I wonder if it tastes like moose urine.

[Petrocorus]

She might accept it, but in a broad sense Sigidi's half of her entire life has been built upon the moment she lost her arm. So many things happened - Durkon, her "Cousins", everything and everyone she has met in the decades following - all of this is embodied by her lost arm.
Would she find the addition of a second arm useful for day to day life? Yes, definitely. Is she ready to come to terms with everything she has done? I don't want to answer.

That's a fair point. Her lost arm may now be a part of her identity and of her history.
I find this a much more compelling argument than the over-interpretation of a single panel.

I wonder what we would do in her stead? We are not dwarves, though.

[Squire Doodad]

I wonder if it tastes like moose urine.

Elk, actually.

Ew.

I honestly don't know how to feel about Minrah joining the party. I do think it's fair (and not sexist) to bring up the possibility of her being a romantic interest, especially since she is in many ways similar to Celia, both being supporting characters who provided a small but important role in the narrative. I could see her getting with Durkon OR with Bandana, but if I had to choose, I'd go with the latter.

Now, the real question: What would their ship name be?

Minrah isn't too much of an issue, barring the fact that she can be obliterated by Xykon 1-2 rounds.
Also...Bandrah? Minanna? Bandanna Minanna Rahdanna?

[Schroeswald]

Minrah isn't too much of an issue, barring the fact that she can be obliterated by Xykon 1-2 rounds.
Also...Bandrah? Minanna? Bandanna Minanna Rahdanna?

That didn't stop Roy from fighting (and sort of beating) Xykon while at level 9 (probably not much higher than Minrah right now), Named Team Protaganist outnumbers Team Evil 16:3 at the North Pole with Minrah and the Mechane crew, I don't see why this keeps getting brought up.

[Xelto]

Minrah's romantic status.

What? Seriously? Someone actually raised this? And if Minrah wasn't female this would have been considered a reason for her inclusion?

If the new inclusion was male, and the party had been 4 1/2 females and 1 1/2 males instead of vice versa, then yes, the speculation would have been there.

[Squire Doodad]

That didn't stop Roy from fighting (and sort of beating) Xykon while at level 9 (probably not much higher than Minrah right now), Named Team Protaganist outnumbers Team Evil 16:3 at the North Pole with Minrah and the Mechane crew, I don't see why this keeps getting brought up.

You can't possibly be counting MitD as an antagonist, can you?! He's too precious for this world to be an antagonist ;-;
Oh wait Oona's there too. She's probably like level 15? On par with the Order, I'd imagine. Wouldn't be a good battle otherwise, and she seems competent in battle (regular ventures to Monster Hollow and all).

Still though...disregarding familiars, OotS=6, Paladin Crew+MitD=3, Bandanna (Andi doesn't count, nor do most of the Mechane crew unless the Mechane itself provides supporting fire)=1, Minrah=1. Assuming no Hilgya and that I didn't miss a group, that makes it 11:3 (realistically 10:3 given Bandanna is probably on the ship). Most of the Mechane have names for flavor moreso than because they are going to fight in the final battle.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Minrah has a narrative role - same one she had before.
She allows the author to constantly recap stuff that he needs to tell us again for newer readers (or those that took a while)

So next book when they start recapping about who Redcloak and Xykon are, he has an audience.


It also gives an option of opening a dialogue with an old character the Oots wouldn't want to go near.

As a random example, if Sabine has a message for the party nobody would listen to her. But Minarh has no idea who she is so she'll have a nice chat with her.

Heck, it could be that she becomes friendly with one of the goblins.


For all we know, she'll probably retire before the battle with the big bad. Possibly go on a short side quest or have to stay behind and heal minor characters (O-Chul and Lien?)




P.S

Seriously? We've watched Curly run from the fight and had it mentioned several times that she's still out there and people still think that won't affect anything moving forward?

Oh, she's dead, like crispy Vamp ash, cause Kudzu is going to cast his first spell and prove his Cleric Prodigyness (His mother took him into battle, he has hidden levels, his parents and paternal grandparents are badasses, Loki is sneaky, he is named for a plant that seems innocuous but is actually fast growing and can kill. {scrubbed} ) or surprise her with a stick to the heart, either way he will do his family proud. And he needs only a single comic to do it.

[Schroeswald]

You can't possibly be counting MitD as an antagonist, can you?! He's too precious for this world to be an antagonist ;-;
Oh wait Oona's there too. She's probably like level 15? On par with the Order, I'd imagine. Wouldn't be a good battle otherwise, and she seems competent in battle (regular ventures to Monster Hollow and all).

Still though...disregarding familiars, OotS=6, Paladin Crew+MitD=3, Bandanna (Andi doesn't count, nor do most of the Mechane crew unless the Mechane itself provides supporting fire)=1, Minrah=1. Assuming no Hilgya and that I didn't miss a group, that makes it 11:3 (realistically 10:3 given Bandanna is probably on the ship). Most of the Mechane have names for flavor moreso than because they are going to fight in the final battle.

Its still a pretty big number outnumbering, and yes I did count the 6 other named Mechaners (but not the MiTD cause we can't be sure how long he's fighting), but most of the crew of the Methane seems to have levels in Rogue, even if they are all under fifth its still pretty good for overwhelming three people, even if Xykon is epic.

[CriticalFailure]

I don't see why Minrah getting a romantic plot line would necessarily be bad. She clearly came back from Valhalla and joined the party due to her own devotion to her cause and her own determination to help. Yeah it tends to come across poorly when a character is seemingly arbitrarily added to a story to serve as a love interest with no actual personal motivations for their actions beside loving the protagonist character, but it's already established that Minrah is joining for her own reasons. She has agency and motivations outside of romance.

I do have a hard time picturing how her having a romance specifically with Bandana could be pulled off without coming across as sexist/shoehorning in romance for the sake of pairing off characters because of their lack of anything in common. Unless it was strictly casual or something.

[DeliaP]

...Named Team Protaganist outnumbers Team Evil 16:3 at the North Pole with Minrah and the Mechane crew, I don't see why this keeps getting brought up.

Because Team-Lots-of-Lower-Level-Shmoes can outnumber Big-Bad-Magic-Person by at least 36:1, and single favourite optimised area of effect spell (against whose effect Big-Bad-Magic-Person has also crafted a pro-tip protection device) can turn 36:1 into 0:1 in a single round.

... most of the crew of the Methane seems to have levels in Rogue, even if they are all under fifth its still pretty good for overwhelming three people, even if Xykon is epic.

Sorry, trying not to sound harsh, but the entire crew of the Mechane vs Xykon equals Xykon plus ash. D&D just isn't linear.

(OK, while I've edited this, people have responded.... sorry, didn't mean to mess up the responses...)

[JumboWheat01]

Because Team-Lots-of-Lower-Level-Shmoes can outnumber Big-Bad-Magic-Person by at least 36:1, and single favourite optimised area of effect spell (against whose effect Big-Bad-Magic-Person has also crafted a pro-tip protection device) can turn 36:1 into 0:1 in a single round. D&D isn't linear.

It's linear. If you're not a spell caster.

Good ol' "Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards."

[Schroeswald]

Because Team Lots of Low Level Shmoes can outnumber Big Bad Magic Person by at least 36:1, and single Area of Effect spell (against which the Big Bad Magic Person has crafted an protection device) can turn 36:1 into 0:1 in a single round.

But it won't kill Team A Good Amount of High Level Main Characters, and Team Mechane can pretty easily get in some hits on Xykon (or Oona and Redcloak who can't quickly kill a bunch of people, especially not with Team Belkar and a Dinosaur stomping around), people have brains that they can use for strategy beyond Everyone Attack Xykon at Once (such as Everyone Attacks Oona, use the fifty rogues to steal the phylactery, distract Xykon long enough for the MiTD to turn, or even Everyone Attack Redcloak at Once).

[Ruck]

Well, you can get perfectly good liquor in other ways which dwarves might appreciate. More precisely you can use fractional freezing to strengthen alcohol drinks without loosing the taste. In fact, it will be even more flavorful then before.

Hmm. I don't know about this and I am intrigued by your thesis. Tell me more.

I wonder if it tastes like moose urine.

I'm assuming Durkon chose that comparison because it doesn't.

You can't be both?

I think she finds practical excuses for holding on to her deepest internal sentiment.

Durkon would understand.

And I don't think getting the arm regenerated would be letting go of it in anything except symbolically.

Now, the argument that she's so used to having one arm she doesn't want to have to re-adapt, I could see that.

That said, I mean, it's certainly not impossible that "she finds practical excuses for holding on to her deepest internal sentiment." A reasonable interpretation, even. I would be a little disappointed, knowing that that's how Durkon's journey as a cleric started in the first place, that he wouldn't be able to come full circle and do this for his mother.

If the new inclusion was male, and the party had been 4 1/2 females and 1 1/2 males instead of vice versa, then yes, the speculation would have been there.

Maybe, maybe not. It's an assertion that sounds like it makes sense but is ultimately unprovable.

And looking at the history of the boards, I don't remember people immediately speculating on any new male character having a romantic entanglement. (Meanwhile, the number of people who speculated Laurin's favor from Tarquin would be sexual in nature was... more than it should have been.)

[BasiliskSoldier]

Named Team Protaganist outnumbers Team Evil 16:3 at the North Pole with Minrah and the Mechane crew, I don't see why this keeps getting brought up.

OOTS: 6+1+1
Sapphire Guard: 2
Team Evil: 4

This seems unbalanced, at first, especially since one of Team Evil's 4 members is actively working against them at this point.

But both Xykon and Redcloak have necromancy spells, and Oona is a beastmaster and chief of a Bugbear village. Team Evil will have minions in the next book, likely including powerful undead ones gathered from the tomb's guardians. Team Named Protagonist will not have a numerical advantage at the North Pole.

Additionally, both Xykon and Redcloak are powerful offensive spellcasters, and are both probably capable of killing one of the frailer characters in a single hit.

[Squire Doodad]

And I don't think getting the arm regenerated would be letting go of it in anything except symbolically.

Now, the argument that she's so used to having one arm she doesn't want to have to re-adapt, I could see that.

That said, I mean, it's certainly not impossible that "she finds practical excuses for holding on to her deepest internal sentiment." A reasonable interpretation, even. I would be a little disappointed, knowing that that's how Durkon's journey as a cleric started in the first place, that he wouldn't be able to come full circle and do this for his mother.

But...no?
It is symbolic. Sidgi is practical. But some things have sentimental value no matter what. Just because something has a distinguishing trait in one respect does not mean it defines them in all instances.
Haley is Chaotic Good. That doesn't mean she's incapable of following rules.

[Rollin]

More like had bad experiences with alcohol being consumed to excess before.

I didn't buy this viewpoint at first, but I just realized that Roy's otherwise odd comment about "hugs and kisses" clinches the reference.

Edit: so to speak.

[Ron Miel]

Considering her role plot-wise, I think having a cleric around who isn't infected with sphinx pox will be quite useful when the infected start to sucumb.

But if Sphinx Pox is infectious, and everyone on the Mechane has it, won't she catch it quickly?

[Squire Doodad]

But if Sphinx Pox is infectious, and everyone on the Mechane has it, won't she catch it quickly?

Yes, but while everyone else is sick Minrah will still be sane and so will be able to cure Durkon, thus allowing for reliable mass cures.

[DeliaP]

But it won't kill Team A Good Amount of High Level Main Characters, and Team Mechane can pretty easily get in some hits on Xykon (or Oona and Redcloak who can't quickly kill a bunch of people, especially not with Team Belkar and a Dinosaur stomping around), people have brains that they can use for strategy beyond Everyone Attack Xykon at Once (such as Everyone Attacks Oona, use the fifty rogues to steal the phylactery, distract Xykon long enough for the MiTD to turn, or even Everyone Attack Redcloak at Once).

OK, trying not to go too much down the rabbit hole but:

Team-some-high-levels-and-lots-of-low-levels vs. Team-Epic-AoE-Spellcasters
becomes
Team-some-high-levels-and-ash vs. Team-Epic-AoE-Spellcasters
very fast.

And:

Redcloak can seriously quickly kill a bunch of lower level people. Look a the cleric flamestrikes that occurred in Firmament: Redcloak is way higher level than Durkon, Durkula and Hilgya (and is wearing an artefact level magic item to boot). He may not be Epic, but he's one level below Epic, and that's still enough to ensure that Everyone-Attack-Redcloak is not a much better plan than Everyone-Attack-Xykon.

I'll add (to make the point):
Even a half a dozen astral devas would be no more than a speed bump to Xykon

[Rollin]

But if Sphinx Pox is infectious, and everyone on the Mechane has it, won't she catch it quickly?

Apparently it took divine intervention to make it spread the way it did on a single occasion. As far as we know, Hel could do the same thing a second time, but if she doesn't happen to, Minrah's probably okay.

As I suggested upthread, I'm assuming Durkon's okay too, as his body has been reduced to ash since then.

[BasiliskSoldier]

OK, trying not to go too much down the rabbit hole but:

Team-some-high-levels-and-lots-of-low-levels vs. Team-Epic-AoE-Spellcasters
becomes
Team-some-high-levels-and-ash vs. Team-Epic-AoE-Spellcasters
very fast.

And:

Redcloak can seriously quickly kill a bunch of lower level people. Look a the cleric flamestrikes that occurred in Firmament: Redcloak is way higher level than Durkon, Durkula and Hilgya (and is wearing an artefact level magic item to boot). He may not be Epic, but he's one level below Epic, and that's still enough to ensure that Everyone-Attack-Redcloak is not a much better plan than Everyone-Attack-Xykon.

And again, there won't be a numerical advantage, Oona's bugbears and beasts plus Xykon and Redcloak's undead servants are going to make certain of that.

[Squire Doodad]

And again, there won't be a numerical advantage, Oona's bugbears and beasts plus Xykon and Redcloak's undead servants are going to make certain of that.

Does Xykon have any undead left? I'm pretty sure he ditched 99% of them at Azure City, and corpses aren't exactly common in the north pole. There's probably one or two corpses of high level heroes that hasn't been corpsed, bone sucked and liquified, but there isn't much to confirm this. Also, RC might get annoyed if Xykon is decorpsifying bugbears. Though not enough to get him to stop having a mini army.
The point is, I doubt there's a massive amount of undead, and the amount there is now is basically being taken away from the bugbear army.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Does Xykon have any undead left? I'm pretty sure he ditched 99% of them at Azure City, and corpses aren't exactly common in the north pole. There's probably one or two corpses of high level heroes that hasn't been corpsed, bone sucked and liquified, but there isn't much to confirm this. Also, RC might get annoyed if Xykon is decorpsifying bugbears. Though not enough to get him to stop having a mini army.
The point is, I doubt there's a massive amount of undead, and the amount there is now is basically being taken away from the bugbear army.

That ain't a necromancer mindset there.

It's a big dungeon, fulla nasties, and Xykon ain't averse to using undead monsters