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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    So my friends and I will be starting to play DnD in two weeks.

    The party consists of a human druid, lizard barbarian, and a human (?) eldritch knight. I am fairly new to DnD, only played a small campaign with the same group before. I was a Sorcadin. I love multiclass.

    So as the title suggest, I want to do a Tabaxi Swashbuckling Hexlock.

    But I have so many ... uncertainties?I am trying to visualize what kinda of role I should do. I thought of using Eldritch blast as a range weapon to soften ppl up before going in for the kill. I like cantrips (booming or gfb) because previous experience. I would love the extra damage on sneak atk too. I enjoy one shot enemy or burst damage.

    However, I am lost on what pact or evocations to take, and I read a lot of articles on build. There are ppl suggesting twf, or dual wield and all other damage formula.

    I wanted to take, blade pact agonizing blast and armor of shadows (18 dex/16 chrisma). Then have Hellish rebuke, hex and arms of Hadar. So that means I would not be using thirsting blade as I will be relying on cantrips.

    I also then realized most of my companions are melee and the Eldritch knight can be similar to fighting style.

    I guess I just want some pointers on how to take the characters. I would like to dash into combat do great burst damage while dancing around the monsters for taunting and rp. Need ideas on pact and evocation. Thank you!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    This build can be a bit conflicting. Your sneak attack wants a finesse weapon, and your swashbuckler wants you to be close to enemies while agonizing Eldritch Blast wants you to keep your distance. I'd suggest you focus on more close range options. GFB or BB will help you up close with just one attack and your Dex is good enough for a short bow if you need the range. I have a rogue/warlock and have a lot of fun with the Mask of Many Faces invocation. Many people like the see in darkness/Darkness combo but I'm not a big fan. It seems great in isolation but isn't great in my opinion in a team game. Mage armor will give you a 1 AC bump from studded leather which is a nice option. I also have a fondness for the invocation that lets you read all languages. It's kinda fluff but I dig the flavor.

    Do you know what level you'll be starting at, or how you'd like to split your levels?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Considering you've got good Dex and are relying on Armor of Shadows rather than physical armor, Hexblade doesn't really fit. Most of the other patrons are thematic, so you may need to flesh out the character more story-wise to come to a decision on patron.

    For Invocations, I cannot stress the wonderful amazing awesomeness that is Mask of Many Faces enough, particularly for a Rogue multiclass. Expertise in deception+Disguise Self at will + the Actor Feat (for icing on the cake), and you can be whoever you want, whenever you want. Simple as that. Great for RP and causing shenanigans. Strong enough to turn a combat encounter into a social encounter followed by a quick round or two of assassinations. Boom. Also, if you go Pact of the Blade, Definitely pick up Eldritch Smite. Smite+Sneak Attack has the potential to deal loads of Nova damage.
    "There are truly only 2 sources of conflict: Miscommunication, and Intolerance. Of the two, only one is acceptable."

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Verble View Post
    This build can be a bit conflicting. Your sneak attack wants a finesse weapon, and your swashbuckler wants you to be close to enemies while agonizing Eldritch Blast wants you to keep your distance. I'd suggest you focus on more close range options. GFB or BB will help you up close with just one attack and your Dex is good enough for a short bow if you need the range. I have a rogue/warlock and have a lot of fun with the Mask of Many Faces invocation. Many people like the see in darkness/Darkness combo but I'm not a big fan. It seems great in isolation but isn't great in my opinion in a team game. Mage armor will give you a 1 AC bump from studded leather which is a nice option. I also have a fondness for the invocation that lets you read all languages. It's kinda fluff but I dig the flavor.

    Do you know what level you'll be starting at, or how you'd like to split your levels?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagog View Post
    Considering you've got good Dex and are relying on Armor of Shadows rather than physical armor, Hexblade doesn't really fit. Most of the other patrons are thematic, so you may need to flesh out the character more story-wise to come to a decision on patron.

    For Invocations, I cannot stress the wonderful amazing awesomeness that is Mask of Many Faces enough, particularly for a Rogue multiclass. Expertise in deception+Disguise Self at will + the Actor Feat (for icing on the cake), and you can be whoever you want, whenever you want. Simple as that. Great for RP and causing shenanigans. Strong enough to turn a combat encounter into a social encounter followed by a quick round or two of assassinations. Boom. Also, if you go Pact of the Blade, Definitely pick up Eldritch Smite. Smite+Sneak Attack has the potential to deal loads of Nova damage.
    I will be starting level 3. I am thinking a rogue 2, warlock 1 start, and get to rogue 3 and then warlock 5. Currently I am thinking have the options of thirsting blade and eldritch smite. So I can either two time atk for higher chance of guarantee sneak per turn and also nova someone when needed.

    for spells, I think wrathful smite, helliush rebuke, hex. Might have other laters. Having hex blade curse helps too. I will have 6 ASI if I hit 20. I think I will take war caster, bc i want a shield later for higher ac.

    I dont think I will be taking EB anymore, as I will focus on cantrips more. I will probably use a shortbow for range atk and figure out how to weapon swap with the DM.
    I am going to take the first game to observe the play style of other players. The reason I wanted EB was to have the range option to soften enemies and keep away.

    For evocation, I definitely wanted to mage armor ... I might even have a shield later. so I can get to a 19 ac? and use swashbuckler to dance around. My idea s to dance around the enemy while dealing constant damage. Hopefully I can also find a magical weapon. And I did want to have the ability to read all language, it was on my original invocation. I will think about how to RP more too.

    please lmk what u think about the plan. I had some lengthy discussion with ppl.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    This is a rare build where Magic Stones May make sense. Since it can trigger Sneak Attack damage it can outpace Eldritch Blast.

    There is a push to go into Pact of the Blade but it is by no means the only way to go. Hexblade gets you Charisma to Attack and Medium Armor so you don’t HAVE to max Dexterity. But both Pact of Tome and Chain are very useful. If the campaign is heavy combat than I understand but Tome is well rounded and Chain is good at Scouting and Spying.

    Tome getting all rituals is very satisfying, you still get a Familiar which is awesome for a Rogue. I would suggest you go Tome. You’ll have more than enough damage without going Blade.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Talionis View Post
    This is a rare build where Magic Stones May make sense. Since it can trigger Sneak Attack damage it can outpace Eldritch Blast.

    There is a push to go into Pact of the Blade but it is by no means the only way to go. Hexblade gets you Charisma to Attack and Medium Armor so you don’t HAVE to max Dexterity. But both Pact of Tome and Chain are very useful. If the campaign is heavy combat than I understand but Tome is well rounded and Chain is good at Scouting and Spying.

    Tome getting all rituals is very satisfying, you still get a Familiar which is awesome for a Rogue. I would suggest you go Tome. You’ll have more than enough damage without going Blade.
    If i go tome, that means I will forgo the smite and thirst and solo focusing on one shot right. what cantrips do u also recommend?

    and for chain. I guess the only familiar is the invisible imp? haha 100% sneak atk if hit.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Here is the fundemental problem with this build: Warlocks are a ranged class based on multiple attacks and hex. A swashbuckler style rogue is a melee single striker. You can't nova as a warlock, there too consistent with Eldritch Blast + agonizing blast. You can't nova as a rogue, sneak attack is too consistent. The classes don't mesh well unless you only grab the side warlock stuff.

    A good use of a warlock dip would be to grab invocations that improve your rogueness. Examples being Devil's Sight, Mask of Many Faces, and the one that gives persuasion and deception.

    If you want to play a rogue + spell caster mix, I'd just play an Arcane Trickster. You get very useful spell casting + three cantrips one being an invisible mage hand. Plus the extra damage from sneak attack leveling consistently.

    You could also accomplish an effective warlock dip through magic initiate.
    Mathematically speaking, D&D is a game where a level one character can be killed by a horde of cats.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Spastic View Post
    Here is the fundemental problem with this build: Warlocks are a ranged class based on multiple attacks and hex. A swashbuckler style rogue is a melee single striker. You can't nova as a warlock, there too consistent with Eldritch Blast + agonizing blast. You can't nova as a rogue, sneak attack is too consistent. The classes don't mesh well unless you only grab the side warlock stuff.

    A good use of a warlock dip would be to grab invocations that improve your rogueness. Examples being Devil's Sight, Mask of Many Faces, and the one that gives persuasion and deception.

    If you want to play a rogue + spell caster mix, I'd just play an Arcane Trickster. You get very useful spell casting + three cantrips one being an invisible mage hand. Plus the extra damage from sneak attack leveling consistently.

    You could also accomplish an effective warlock dip through magic initiate.
    I mean, if I sneak atk + hexblade curse + booming + wrathful strike + eldritch strike. Thats good nova damage right
    and warlock 5 give me some good invoc and also dips

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Spastic View Post
    Here is the fundemental problem with this build: Warlocks are a ranged class based on multiple attacks and hex. A swashbuckler style rogue is a melee single striker. You can't nova as a warlock, there too consistent with Eldritch Blast + agonizing blast. You can't nova as a rogue, sneak attack is too consistent. The classes don't mesh well unless you only grab the side warlock stuff.

    A good use of a warlock dip would be to grab invocations that improve your rogueness. Examples being Devil's Sight, Mask of Many Faces, and the one that gives persuasion and deception.

    If you want to play a rogue + spell caster mix, I'd just play an Arcane Trickster. You get very useful spell casting + three cantrips one being an invisible mage hand. Plus the extra damage from sneak attack leveling consistently.

    You could also accomplish an effective warlock dip through magic initiate.
    ^ This may be true, but don't let posts like these think you shouldn't play what you want.

    I've built this before, and this is how I handled it.

    I picked Hexblade as my patron & Blade as my pact for Warlock. You can cut off at 3 if you want to max Rogue or 5 if you want Thirsting Blade and/or Eldritch Smite, but I pushed to 6 to make use of Accursed Specter. 6 levels outside of Rogue lose you just as much SA damage as 5, but most importantly the Specter makes landing SA a lot easier. The Specter literally gets it's own turn, so you get to control your flanking buddy without giving up any actions. Also, OoC you have a ghost you can make great use of since it can go through objects (such as doors or even a potentially trapped chest).

    The rest of my levels were taken in Rogue, in which I went for Arcane Trickster. At WL 6 you know 7 spells, and as per pact magic you can use your Arcane Trickster slots for your WL spells as well. I made great use of this, and saved my WL slots for Eldritch Smite. Again, you lose 3d6 in SA but if you're burning your slots for ES at level 6 you'll be adding 4d8 for an average gain of 7.5 damage. You can only do this twice a short rest assuming you aren't using them on spells, but it will help in offsetting the difference.

    For Invocations, ESmite at this point are obvious. Thirsting Blade can increase your odds of landing SA. Since you'd only get one more then, I'd forgo Agonizing Blast for Mask of Many Faces as previously suggested, or any other invocations that take your fancy.

    I believe one of the splatbooks gives Warlock Magic Stone as a cantrip, but I could be wrong. If so, MS + Sling = ranged SA, which will outrank EB if you're not using Agonizing Blast (even if not, you don't NEED to have Agonizing if you're wanting to focus on SA). GFB or BB is a strong option especially if you want to free up one of your invocation slots, since it's incompatible with Thirsting Blade. Other spell choices from here are preference, but since you'll now get access to Wizard spells too I'd put priority on the Warlock exclusives like Hellish Rebuke, Hex, and Armor of Agathys up until Hunger of Hadar (area denial makes it hard for opponents to get out of being flanked). If you're unsure, consult the Warlock & Wizard handbooks for spell advice.

    Hexblade means you don't need much focus on DEX, but since you'll probably use those skills I'd keep it at a solid 14 (since you need 13 to MC). Some focus to INT for your AT spells, max CHA, rest is preference.

    I hope that helps, and don't worry if you're told a pure Rogue or Warlock would be better; if it's what you want to play, go for it. I'll vouch for the added versatility and (most importantly) added fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    If the players demand a mechanical explanation for how he does this, summon Orcus
    Quote Originally Posted by tKUUNK View Post
    first off, LentilNinja, I love the build you suggested! FUN is the word here.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by LentilNinja View Post
    ^ This may be true, but don't let posts like these think you shouldn't play what you want.

    I've built this before, and this is how I handled it.

    I picked Hexblade as my patron & Blade as my pact for Warlock. You can cut off at 3 if you want to max Rogue or 5 if you want Thirsting Blade and/or Eldritch Smite, but I pushed to 6 to make use of Accursed Specter. 6 levels outside of Rogue lose you just as much SA damage as 5, but most importantly the Specter makes landing SA a lot easier. The Specter literally gets it's own turn, so you get to control your flanking buddy without giving up any actions. Also, OoC you have a ghost you can make great use of since it can go through objects (such as doors or even a potentially trapped chest).

    The rest of my levels were taken in Rogue, in which I went for Arcane Trickster. At WL 6 you know 7 spells, and as per pact magic you can use your Arcane Trickster slots for your WL spells as well. I made great use of this, and saved my WL slots for Eldritch Smite. Again, you lose 3d6 in SA but if you're burning your slots for ES at level 6 you'll be adding 4d8 for an average gain of 7.5 damage. You can only do this twice a short rest assuming you aren't using them on spells, but it will help in offsetting the difference.

    For Invocations, ESmite at this point are obvious. Thirsting Blade can increase your odds of landing SA. Since you'd only get one more then, I'd forgo Agonizing Blast for Mask of Many Faces as previously suggested, or any other invocations that take your fancy.

    I believe one of the splatbooks gives Warlock Magic Stone as a cantrip, but I could be wrong. If so, MS + Sling = ranged SA, which will outrank EB if you're not using Agonizing Blast (even if not, you don't NEED to have Agonizing if you're wanting to focus on SA). GFB or BB is a strong option especially if you want to free up one of your invocation slots, since it's incompatible with Thirsting Blade. Other spell choices from here are preference, but since you'll now get access to Wizard spells too I'd put priority on the Warlock exclusives like Hellish Rebuke, Hex, and Armor of Agathys up until Hunger of Hadar (area denial makes it hard for opponents to get out of being flanked). If you're unsure, consult the Warlock & Wizard handbooks for spell advice.

    Hexblade means you don't need much focus on DEX, but since you'll probably use those skills I'd keep it at a solid 14 (since you need 13 to MC). Some focus to INT for your AT spells, max CHA, rest is preference.

    I hope that helps, and don't worry if you're told a pure Rogue or Warlock would be better; if it's what you want to play, go for it. I'll vouch for the added versatility and (most importantly) added fun.
    my build is going to be 7 str 16+2 (tabaxi) dex 14 con, 11 int, 13 wis, 15+1 (tabaxi) charm
    Thank you for the reply! I appreciate it.
    What are you thoughts on the outline I wrote on the earlier comments?
    Last edited by redjackettrnr; 2019-09-18 at 06:49 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    first off, LentilNinja, I love the build you suggested! FUN is the word here.

    With an Eldritch Knight AND a barbarian in your group, booming blade seems like a great option - paired with cunning action disengage.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by tKUUNK View Post
    first off, LentilNinja, I love the build you suggested! FUN is the word here.

    With an Eldritch Knight AND a barbarian in your group, booming blade seems like a great option - paired with cunning action disengage.
    ah cheers.
    I am definitely deciding to whether go hex + thirsting blade combo
    or more cantrip + smite heavy focus.

    not going to do eb at all

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by redjackettrnr View Post
    my build is going to be 7 str 16+2 (tabaxi) dex 14 con, 11 int, 13 wis, 15+1 (tabaxi) charm
    Thank you for the reply! I appreciate it.
    What are you thoughts on the outline I wrote on the earlier comments?
    I'd probably start with Rogue initially. The skills you gain at the start are very valuable, I wouldn't miss out. Also, flavour-wise could be you were a Rogue who tried to steal something they shouldn't have.. and bargained with their soul to make up for it.

    Swashbucklers a solid choice instead of Arcane Trickster, and there's plenty merit to it. The main synergy would be Booming Blade here; smack them, run, punish them for chasing you.

    If you're still up for Hexblade w/ Swash, I'd spend ASIs focusing on your CHA rather than your DEX. You've become SAD for attacks, damage, initiative, spells, and Swashbuckler abilities. As you mentioned AC, Shield from Hexblade lets you buff to 24 AC when you need it. You also get some smites for a bonus action for extra damage.

    If you use a shield, Improved Pact Weapon lets you use your spells without a free hand. It also makes your blade a +1 until you find that magical weapon.

    Between Arcane Trickster & Swashbuckler, it all depends whether you want to be a more spellswordy kind of character or not. I went with AT because I prefer having all the magic, but I initially wanted to go with Swashbuckler myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by tKUUNK View Post
    first off, LentilNinja, I love the build you suggested! FUN is the word here.
    F is for Flames I rebuke when I'm hit
    U should take 2-3 levels
    N is for Nearly unlimited power

    When you sell your soul to the
    devil!
    Last edited by LentilNinja; 2019-09-18 at 09:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    If the players demand a mechanical explanation for how he does this, summon Orcus
    Quote Originally Posted by tKUUNK View Post
    first off, LentilNinja, I love the build you suggested! FUN is the word here.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Reevh's Avatar

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Spastic View Post
    Here is the fundemental problem with this build: Warlocks are a ranged class based on multiple attacks and hex. A swashbuckler style rogue is a melee single striker. You can't nova as a warlock, there too consistent with Eldritch Blast + agonizing blast. You can't nova as a rogue, sneak attack is too consistent. The classes don't mesh well unless you only grab the side warlock stuff.

    A good use of a warlock dip would be to grab invocations that improve your rogueness. Examples being Devil's Sight, Mask of Many Faces, and the one that gives persuasion and deception.

    If you want to play a rogue + spell caster mix, I'd just play an Arcane Trickster. You get very useful spell casting + three cantrips one being an invisible mage hand. Plus the extra damage from sneak attack leveling consistently.

    You could also accomplish an effective warlock dip through magic initiate.
    I mean I disagree entirely. I played a Wood Elf 9 Arcane Trickster Rogue/2 Hexblade Warlock the other day, and it was too powerful if anything.

    You get 4 level 1 spell slots, 2 level 2 spell slots, and 2 more level 1 slots that refresh on a short rest. If you go 3 warlock, that goes up to 2 level 2 spell slots that refresh on short rest.

    At level 4 I took Elven Accuracy, and at 8 I took Mobile. I was lucky enough to roll a 17 at the start, which means by level 4 I had a 20 dex, but this would work fine with a 15 base dex, as well.

    I had a movement of 45, baseline, and could double dash to put that as high as 135 when needed.

    I had Armor of Shadows, so that my AC was 13+DEX+2 (due to wielding a shield), for a total of 20. I could then cast Shield when needed, to bring that up to a 25 AC. When I didn't want to expend spell slots, I could use Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage. Evasion adds another level of defensibility to the character, as well as absorb elements and mirror image.

    For offense, if you're in dim light, you can use Shadow Blade, and get advantage on every attack, boosted by elven accuracy. This gives you a 14.3% crit rate. If using Booming Blade, that means you can do 4d8+DEX+5d6 damage, or 8d8+DEX+10d6 damage on a (pretty common) crit. Then if you're up against a boss, you can use Hexblade's Curse to up your crit rate to 27.1%, and add your proficiency bonus to your attack. Once you've hit the enemy, if it isn't already dead, you can dance back out of range without provoking an opportunity attack, thanks to the Mobile feat. If the enemy follows you, they take the follow up Booming Blade damage.

    If you're not in dim light and you have a tolerant DM, you can use Find Familiar to summon an owl to give yourself advantage on your attack every round, for only slightly less damage than above.

    As a bonus, you've got your bonus action free, since you aren't dual wielding. This means you can use your cunning action almost every turn if you want without sacrificing damage. You're also still a rogue, so you have all the great skills, you've got expertise in 4 skills, and magical ambush. You also have another invocation as a warlock that I'd typically use on Devil's Sight, which lets you see in darkness, even magical darkness, as if it were bright light for 120 feet, perfect for a scouting stealthing rogue. Add to that various utility spells like minor illusion, silent image, etc. and you've got a powerhouse in defense, offense, and support.

    At level 12, take another level in warlock if you like for a pact. I recommend Chain or Tome, but Blade works too if you decide to climb the Warlock tree far enough to get extra attack, but let's face it, all your damage is really in one attack anyway, so you may as well keep going rogue to boost your sneak attack damage, give yourself reliable talent, wisdom saves, and more ASIs. Plus, at rogue 13, you can give yourself advantage with a bonus action, so even if your familiar dies and you're fighting in bright light, you're covered.

    It's a super strong build. Very powergamey, so in my opinion better for one shots than campaigns (unless your table is cool with powergaming), but I can't recommend it enough.
    Last edited by Reevh; 2019-09-18 at 11:39 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Another option would be lean more on the nimbleness of the rogue, and then your 3 levels of Warlock is instead used for Chain Pact.

    You get the "invisible advantage machine" that normally only Arcane Tricksters get with their mage hand, much earlier, and with all of the utility of a fully warlock familiar - while they don't have the flyby trait, they (that is, all but one) are invisible which isn't broken by the help action. I think starting with Rogue 2 / Warlock 1, with warlock capping at 3, then just put the rest into Rogue, is a great idea
    • Since you want to use GFB or Booming Blade as your normal attack, Thirsting Blade wouldn't make sense for the build, as you can't use Extra Attack with the SCAGtrips.
    • On top of that, since you're a Tabaxi swashbuckler already, you've already gotten most of the Mobile feat - You're faster than the average bear, and whoever you hit can't AoO you, and you can dash as a bonus action
    • If you're a hexblade, you can use Medium armor instead of Armor of Shadows, allowing you to ignore Dex after 14, and You can still use your mainhand finesse weapon with charisma instead of dexterity. You have an +Cha to initiative anyway as a swashbuckler.
    • You can grab an extra dagger for the occasional offhand bonus action attack, sure, but it isn't really necessary... as you'd have to forgo using a SCAGtrip to trigger that option. Something like Sentinel would be quite useful, though.
    Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!
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  16. - Top - End - #16
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    Another option would be lean more on the nimbleness of the rogue, and then your 3 levels of Warlock is instead used for Chain Pact.

    You get the "invisible advantage machine" that normally only Arcane Tricksters get with their mage hand, much earlier, and with all of the utility of a fully warlock familiar - while they don't have the flyby trait, they (that is, all but one) are invisible which isn't broken by the help action. I think starting with Rogue 2 / Warlock 1, with warlock capping at 3, then just put the rest into Rogue, is a great idea
    • Since you want to use GFB or Booming Blade as your normal attack, Thirsting Blade wouldn't make sense for the build, as you can't use Extra Attack with the SCAGtrips.
    • On top of that, since you're a Tabaxi swashbuckler already, you've already gotten most of the Mobile feat - You're faster than the average bear, and whoever you hit can't AoO you, and you can dash as a bonus action
    • If you're a hexblade, you can use Medium armor instead of Armor of Shadows, allowing you to ignore Dex after 14, and You can still use your mainhand finesse weapon with charisma instead of dexterity. You have an +Cha to initiative anyway as a swashbuckler.
    • You can grab an extra dagger for the occasional offhand bonus action attack, sure, but it isn't really necessary... as you'd have to forgo using a SCAGtrip to trigger that option. Something like Sentinel would be quite useful, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reevh View Post
    I mean I disagree entirely. I played a Wood Elf 9 Arcane Trickster Rogue/2 Hexblade Warlock the other day, and it was too powerful if anything.

    You get 4 level 1 spell slots, 2 level 2 spell slots, and 2 more level 1 slots that refresh on a short rest. If you go 3 warlock, that goes up to 2 level 2 spell slots that refresh on short rest.

    At level 4 I took Elven Accuracy, and at 8 I took Mobile. I was lucky enough to roll a 17 at the start, which means by level 4 I had a 20 dex, but this would work fine with a 15 base dex, as well.

    I had a movement of 45, baseline, and could double dash to put that as high as 135 when needed.

    I had Armor of Shadows, so that my AC was 13+DEX+2 (due to wielding a shield), for a total of 20. I could then cast Shield when needed, to bring that up to a 25 AC. When I didn't want to expend spell slots, I could use Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage. Evasion adds another level of defensibility to the character, as well as absorb elements and mirror image.

    For offense, if you're in dim light, you can use Shadow Blade, and get advantage on every attack, boosted by elven accuracy. This gives you a 14.3% crit rate. If using Booming Blade, that means you can do 4d8+DEX+5d6 damage, or 8d8+DEX+10d6 damage on a (pretty common) crit. Then if you're up against a boss, you can use Hexblade's Curse to up your crit rate to 27.1%, and add your proficiency bonus to your attack. Once you've hit the enemy, if it isn't already dead, you can dance back out of range without provoking an opportunity attack, thanks to the Mobile feat. If the enemy follows you, they take the follow up Booming Blade damage.

    If you're not in dim light and you have a tolerant DM, you can use Find Familiar to summon an owl to give yourself advantage on your attack every round, for only slightly less damage than above.

    As a bonus, you've got your bonus action free, since you aren't dual wielding. This means you can use your cunning action almost every turn if you want without sacrificing damage. You're also still a rogue, so you have all the great skills, you've got expertise in 4 skills, and magical ambush. You also have another invocation as a warlock that I'd typically use on Devil's Sight, which lets you see in darkness, even magical darkness, as if it were bright light for 120 feet, perfect for a scouting stealthing rogue. Add to that various utility spells like minor illusion, silent image, etc. and you've got a powerhouse in defense, offense, and support.

    At level 12, take another level in warlock if you like for a pact. I recommend Chain or Tome, but Blade works too if you decide to climb the Warlock tree far enough to get extra attack, but let's face it, all your damage is really in one attack anyway, so you may as well keep going rogue to boost your sneak attack damage, give yourself reliable talent, wisdom saves, and more ASIs. Plus, at rogue 13, you can give yourself advantage with a bonus action, so even if your familiar dies and you're fighting in bright light, you're covered.

    It's a super strong build. Very powergamey, so in my opinion better for one shots than campaigns (unless your table is cool with powergaming), but I can't recommend it enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by LentilNinja View Post
    I'd probably start with Rogue initially. The skills you gain at the start are very valuable, I wouldn't miss out. Also, flavour-wise could be you were a Rogue who tried to steal something they shouldn't have.. and bargained with their soul to make up for it.

    Swashbucklers a solid choice instead of Arcane Trickster, and there's plenty merit to it. The main synergy would be Booming Blade here; smack them, run, punish them for chasing you.

    If you're still up for Hexblade w/ Swash, I'd spend ASIs focusing on your CHA rather than your DEX. You've become SAD for attacks, damage, initiative, spells, and Swashbuckler abilities. As you mentioned AC, Shield from Hexblade lets you buff to 24 AC when you need it. You also get some smites for a bonus action for extra damage.

    If you use a shield, Improved Pact Weapon lets you use your spells without a free hand. It also makes your blade a +1 until you find that magical weapon.

    Between Arcane Trickster & Swashbuckler, it all depends whether you want to be a more spellswordy kind of character or not. I went with AT because I prefer having all the magic, but I initially wanted to go with Swashbuckler myself.



    F is for Flames I rebuke when I'm hit
    U should take 2-3 levels
    N is for Nearly unlimited power

    When you sell your soul to the
    devil!
    Thank you guys so much for all the ideas and suggestion. I kinda wrote down a lvl streamline to total level of 7 for now.
    The idea is to have one of the smite activated through bonus action, and have damage through sneak atk + cantrip + branding smite (+ eldritch when needed)
    branding is also nice because it levels up too. I will have evasion later on for less damage.
    for the first asi, i will take war caster. talked with dm about pact weapon. i still need a free hand.
    I think in the end i will do r12 + w8. 6 Asi and decent stats and spells from both side.

    HexBuckler

    Lvl 1 Rogue (1)
    • Sneak Atk (1d6), expertise, thieves cant
    Lvl 2 Warlock (1)
    • Hexblade patron
    • Spells (lvl1, 1 slot): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite
    Lvl 3 Rogue (2)
    • Cunning action
    Lvl 4 Rogue (3)
    • Swashbuckler (Sneak Atk (2d6)), fancy foot work, rakish audacity
    Lvl 5 Warlock (2)
    • Spells (lvl1, 2 slots): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite, healing elixir
    • Invocation (2): eye of rune keep, disguise self
    Lvl 6 Warlock (3)
    • Pact of blade
    • Spells (lvl2, 2 slots): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite, healing elixir/branding smite
    • Invocation (2): eye of rune keep, disguise self

    Rogue path
    Lvl 7 Rogues (4) wear shield
    • ASI: war caster
    Lvl 8 Rogue (5)
    • Evasion

    warlock path
    Lvl 7 Warlock (4) wear shield
    • Spells (lvl2, 2 slots): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite, healing elixir/branding smite
    • Invocation: eye of rune keep, disguise self
    • ASI: war caster
    Lvl 8 Warlock (5)
    • Spells (lvl3, 2 slots): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite, healing elixir/branding smite/Counter spell
    • Invocation (3): eye of run keep, disguise self, eldritch smite
    Last edited by redjackettrnr; 2019-09-18 at 07:32 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by redjackettrnr View Post
    If i go tome, that means I will forgo the smite and thirst and solo focusing on one shot right. what cantrips do u also recommend?

    and for chain. I guess the only familiar is the invisible imp? haha 100% sneak atk if hit.
    If you change your mind and do Tome. Don’t forget that it sometimes is correct to attack twice and not use the cantrip. This tends to be against high AC opponents where reliably hitting with Sneak Attack is important. But most likely you Greenflame or Booming Blade. Booming Blade is nice when you can disengage and not get opportunity attacked.

    Another draw to cantrip Attacks is Sentinel Feat with with War Caster Feat can let you get a second Sneak Attack and Booming Blade each round.

    As for cantrips. I skipped Eldritch Blast. The weapon attack cantrips are already on Warlock list. Booming, Magic Stones, Greenflame.

    So I’d grab utility cantrips. Guidance is great for Rogues. Move Earth is amazingly useful. Minor Illusion pairs very well with the Illusion Invocation but you’ll get that from Warlock. Mending is very useful for breaking and entering fixing a window pain or lock.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by redjackettrnr View Post
    Thank you guys so much for all the ideas and suggestion. I kinda wrote down a lvl streamline to total level of 7 for now.
    The idea is to have one of the smite activated through bonus action, and have damage through sneak atk + cantrip + branding smite (+ eldritch when needed)
    branding is also nice because it levels up too. I will have evasion later on for less damage.
    for the first asi, i will take war caster. talked with dm about pact weapon. i still need a free hand.
    I think in the end i will do r12 + w8. 6 Asi and decent stats and spells from both side.

    HexBuckler

    Lvl 1 Rogue (1)
    • Sneak Atk (1d6), expertise, thieves cant
    Lvl 2 Warlock (1)
    • Hexblade patron
    • Spells (lvl1, 1 slot): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite
    Lvl 3 Rogue (2)
    • Cunning action
    Lvl 4 Rogue (3)
    • Swashbuckler (Sneak Atk (2d6)), fancy foot work, rakish audacity
    Lvl 5 Warlock (2)
    • Spells (lvl1, 2 slots): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite, healing elixir
    • Invocation (2): eye of rune keep, disguise self
    Lvl 6 Warlock (3)
    • Pact of blade
    • Spells (lvl2, 2 slots): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite, healing elixir/branding smite
    • Invocation (2): eye of rune keep, disguise self

    Rogue path
    Lvl 7 Rogues (4) wear shield
    • ASI: war caster
    Lvl 8 Rogue (5)
    • Evasion

    warlock path
    Lvl 7 Warlock (4) wear shield
    • Spells (lvl2, 2 slots): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite, healing elixir/branding smite
    • Invocation: eye of rune keep, disguise self
    • ASI: war caster
    Lvl 8 Warlock (5)
    • Spells (lvl3, 2 slots): GFB, BM/Shield, wrathful smite, healing elixir/branding smite/Counter spell
    • Invocation (3): eye of run keep, disguise self, eldritch smite
    Good to see you're sold on HexBuckler.

    As for which of the two paths, if you go Warlock 5 might I tempt you into Warlock 6? The Accursed Specter might disrupt your SA opening Swashbuckler gives you, but even if you're not using him as an advantage machine it's still a whole extra turn of possibilities. Hell, if you're nice you could get him to Help another character instead and offer advantage. It's a great way to get your party members to like you (and put up with your less than legal shenanigans).
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    If the players demand a mechanical explanation for how he does this, summon Orcus
    Quote Originally Posted by tKUUNK View Post
    first off, LentilNinja, I love the build you suggested! FUN is the word here.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by redjackettrnr View Post
    and for chain. I guess the only familiar is the invisible imp? haha 100% sneak atk if hit.
    Most of the Warlock Improved Familiars can turn themselves Invisible - The Quasit, Sprite & Imp can, the Pseudodragon cannot. It just depends on what other benefits you want.
    • Pseudodragon: +3 Perception (and Advantage), +4 Stealth, Blindsight 10 ft & Darkvision 60 ft, understands Draconic, Telepathic, can sting a target to give the poisoned condition, and potentially knock targets unconscious. Fly speed 60
    • Quasit: +5 Stealth, Darkvision 120 ft, Understands Abyssal, can Scare a target 1x/day, and attacks can give the poisoned condition. Land speed 40
    • Sprite: +3 Perception, +8 Stealth, understands Elven & Sylvan, can magically know the emotional state of creatures touched & potentially alignment, can shoot a target at 40/60 to give the poisoned condition, and potentially knock targets unconscious. Fly speed 40
    • Imp: +4 Deception, +3 Insight, +4 persuasion, +5 stealth, darkvision 120 with devil's sight, understands Infernal, and attacks deal decent damage (1d4+3 piercing and an additional 3d6 poison on a failed Con Save, or save for half). Fly Speed of 40


    What this means is you can:
    • "translate" those languages by using an action to move your senses into your familiar
    • Forgo your attacks to have your familiar attack as a reaction, or channel a touch spell through the familiar to make it ranged
    • Telepathically communicate to have your familiar use its own turn to perform a non-attack action (which would not break invisibility), including Search, Help, the Quasit's Scare, or the Sprite's Heart Sight, on the familiar's turn



    Note, you can always change your familiar out to a different one via ritual. So if you normally have an invisible imp on your shoulder (for example, because your Wisdom(Insight) is garbage and you don't have darkvision), but know everything in this area you're entering only speaks Giant, Aquan, or some other exotic language no one in your party knows, you can spend an hour switching to a Pseudodragon to be able to communicate telepathically simple ideas, emotions or images.
    Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!
    Including new Base Classes, a better Ranger, and Subclasses based on:
    • Books
    • TV Shows
    • Marvel Cinematic Universe
    • League of Legends IP
    • Latest series: Planeswalker-themed Subclasses based on Magic: The Gathering's War of the Sparks
    And MORE!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    ... does this stuff just come naturally to you? Do you even have to try anymore xD
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Vogie is the sh**. I don't really have anything to contribute to the topic, just wanted to point that out.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by LentilNinja View Post
    Good to see you're sold on HexBuckler.

    As for which of the two paths, if you go Warlock 5 might I tempt you into Warlock 6? The Accursed Specter might disrupt your SA opening Swashbuckler gives you, but even if you're not using him as an advantage machine it's still a whole extra turn of possibilities. Hell, if you're nice you could get him to Help another character instead and offer advantage. It's a great way to get your party members to like you (and put up with your less than legal shenanigans).
    I will definitely get that, since my end game is warlock 8! I am just trying to get the most important features in the shortest amount time! Might even try get evasion earlier for max skirmish power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    Most of the Warlock Improved Familiars can turn themselves Invisible - The Quasit, Sprite & Imp can, the Pseudodragon cannot. It just depends on what other benefits you want.
    • Pseudodragon: +3 Perception (and Advantage), +4 Stealth, Blindsight 10 ft & Darkvision 60 ft, understands Draconic, Telepathic, can sting a target to give the poisoned condition, and potentially knock targets unconscious. Fly speed 60
    • Quasit: +5 Stealth, Darkvision 120 ft, Understands Abyssal, can Scare a target 1x/day, and attacks can give the poisoned condition. Land speed 40
    • Sprite: +3 Perception, +8 Stealth, understands Elven & Sylvan, can magically know the emotional state of creatures touched & potentially alignment, can shoot a target at 40/60 to give the poisoned condition, and potentially knock targets unconscious. Fly speed 40
    • Imp: +4 Deception, +3 Insight, +4 persuasion, +5 stealth, darkvision 120 with devil's sight, understands Infernal, and attacks deal decent damage (1d4+3 piercing and an additional 3d6 poison on a failed Con Save, or save for half). Fly Speed of 40


    What this means is you can:
    • "translate" those languages by using an action to move your senses into your familiar
    • Forgo your attacks to have your familiar attack as a reaction, or channel a touch spell through the familiar to make it ranged
    • Telepathically communicate to have your familiar use its own turn to perform a non-attack action (which would not break invisibility), including Search, Help, the Quasit's Scare, or the Sprite's Heart Sight, on the familiar's turn



    Note, you can always change your familiar out to a different one via ritual. So if you normally have an invisible imp on your shoulder (for example, because your Wisdom(Insight) is garbage and you don't have darkvision), but know everything in this area you're entering only speaks Giant, Aquan, or some other exotic language no one in your party knows, you can spend an hour switching to a Pseudodragon to be able to communicate telepathically simple ideas, emotions or images.
    I didnt know that O.o that is really cool to have a familiar like that. Can you move the familiar on your turn and still atk and such?
    and maybe I will go chain. Since smite is the only thing I am getting from blade pact even as evocation.
    Last edited by redjackettrnr; 2019-09-19 at 04:21 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    A very cool build!

    I would consider keeping Warlock to a single dip. As mentioned by others, Hexblade nets Medium Armor and Cha attacks plus Booming Blade and Magic Stone and Hex, Shield, etc as you prefer. You miss out on invocations and higher level spell slots, but you get enough magic to feel gishy and you maintain rogue levels for higher sneak attack dice. Eldritch Smite sounds nice, but with only two pact slots it is limited in use. With Booming Blade and Magic Stone at level 5 you can sneak attack for 2d8+3d6 in melee and 4d6 at range for no resource use. I'd consider going to Warlock 3 for Shadow Blade and Pact Boon, but I think Hexblade 1/Rogue X is a compelling option.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Christew View Post
    A very cool build!

    I would consider keeping Warlock to a single dip. As mentioned by others, Hexblade nets Medium Armor and Cha attacks plus Booming Blade and Magic Stone and Hex, Shield, etc as you prefer. You miss out on invocations and higher level spell slots, but you get enough magic to feel gishy and you maintain rogue levels for higher sneak attack dice. Eldritch Smite sounds nice, but with only two pact slots it is limited in use. With Booming Blade and Magic Stone at level 5 you can sneak attack for 2d8+3d6 in melee and 4d6 at range for no resource use. I'd consider going to Warlock 3 for Shadow Blade and Pact Boon, but I think Hexblade 1/Rogue X is a compelling option.
    I have definitely considered that. That is why I am not even sure if I want use blade pact/eldritch smite bc limited resource.
    maybe I will only do three levels of warlock in the end haha
    i want to go warlock 8 bc it gives u 6 asi instead of 5
    but shadow blade wont work i guess, since I wan to have either wrathful or branding smite active at all time, meaning i can only have one concentration
    and i guess as player preference, i never liked single dip in lvls.
    Last edited by redjackettrnr; 2019-09-19 at 05:26 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by redjackettrnr View Post
    I have definitely considered that. That is why I am not even sure if I want use blade pact/eldritch smite bc limited resource.
    maybe I will only do three levels of warlock in the end haha
    i want to go warlock 8 bc it gives u 6 asi instead of 5
    but shadow blade wont work i guess, since I wan to have either wrathful or branding smite active at all time, meaning i can only have one concentration
    and i guess as player preference, i never liked single dip in lvls.
    Fair enough. It is kind of hard to optimize for melee with blade unless you go all in.

    When you say "active at all times" you mean the fear or anti-invisibility effect, right? Because I don't think concentrating nets you any damage after the first attack. Makes the Smite spells a bit sub par for damage in my opinion.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Personally for a mele rouge multiclass I love the Fiend pact. The THP will go a very long way towards surviving. The Fey has some good spell support as well as a great 6th lvl teleport. The Great Old One's telepathy is super fun outside combat (and inside if you are creative).

    I personally dislike the hexblade. And it's main benefits are for people with medium DEX amd high CHA. Since you've got great DEX the only thing it gives you is a shield and the Shield spell. Meh.

    Also everyone is playing with 1 level of Hexblade these days. Super boring.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlush View Post
    Personally for a mele rouge multiclass I love the Fiend pact. The THP will go a very long way towards surviving. The Fey has some good spell support as well as a great 6th lvl teleport. The Great Old One's telepathy is super fun outside combat (and inside if you are creative).

    I personally dislike the hexblade. And it's main benefits are for people with medium DEX amd high CHA. Since you've got great DEX the only thing it gives you is a shield and the Shield spell. Meh.

    Also everyone is playing with 1 level of Hexblade these days. Super boring.
    I will definitely look at al the options again :D cheers for the heads up!

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Christew View Post
    Fair enough. It is kind of hard to optimize for melee with blade unless you go all in.

    When you say "active at all times" you mean the fear or anti-invisibility effect, right? Because I don't think concentrating nets you any damage after the first attack. Makes the Smite spells a bit sub par for damage in my opinion.
    omg ... i thought branding smite would be active the entire one minute when you concentrate ...
    as in once i active it, all my damage will be branding smite extra damage the entire time!
    Last edited by redjackettrnr; 2019-09-19 at 07:54 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    That would definitely make Smites much more appealing! That's why I was advocating things like Booming Blade (damage boost per hit after Level 5 no cost) and Shadow Blade (damage boost that lasts 1 minute with concentration). They are strictly more bang for your buck (damage wise).

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Christew View Post
    That would definitely make Smites much more appealing! That's why I was advocating things like Booming Blade (damage boost per hit after Level 5 no cost) and Shadow Blade (damage boost that lasts 1 minute with concentration). They are strictly more bang for your buck (damage wise).
    yeha cheers. I will decide whether i do cantrip hexbuckler, or hex double atk hexbuckler

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by redjackettrnr View Post
    I didnt know that O.o that is really cool to have a familiar like that. Can you move the familiar on your turn and still atk and such?
    and maybe I will go chain. Since smite is the only thing I am getting from blade pact even as evocation.
    The familiar has it's own initiative and turn by RAW, but many DMs allow them to just go right before your turn.
    Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!
    Including new Base Classes, a better Ranger, and Subclasses based on:
    • Books
    • TV Shows
    • Marvel Cinematic Universe
    • League of Legends IP
    • Latest series: Planeswalker-themed Subclasses based on Magic: The Gathering's War of the Sparks
    And MORE!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    ... does this stuff just come naturally to you? Do you even have to try anymore xD
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Vogie is the sh**. I don't really have anything to contribute to the topic, just wanted to point that out.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need help with Rogue/Warlock Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    The familiar has it's own initiative and turn by RAW, but many DMs allow them to just go right before your turn.
    was doing some dnd brain storming earlier
    any thoughts for a 10 rogue 10 warlock split? it would be a Pact of chain build with cantrip dmg/invisible imp. i can either use hex or shadow blade as primary conc spell.

    this way i get armor or hexes and additional cantrip while sacking one ASI while gaining more survive with evasion and sometimes hex armor dodge. and more flexibility with invocation and having 5 SA dices.

    my idea is to dash into combat asap with either tabaxi trait or dash, and then 1v1 someone with booming blade with the help of my imp.
    Last edited by redjackettrnr; 2019-10-01 at 06:35 PM.

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