The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 61 to 73 of 73
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Both seasons of the Ghost in the Shell TV show have characters who are seen as villains and hunted by the police protagonists, but gradually questions about their morality arise since they are public enemies of a deeply corrupt state. The two movies are less ambiguous and at the end it's clear who is good or bad.

    Though I am still not sure what exactly the question is here.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Both seasons of the Ghost in the Shell TV show have characters who are seen as villains and hunted by the police protagonists, but gradually questions about their morality arise since they are public enemies of a deeply corrupt state. The two movies are less ambiguous and at the end it's clear who is good or bad.

    Though I am still not sure what exactly the question is here.
    Shouldn't that be 3 movies?

    In SAC Season 1 the "villain" was
    Spoiler
    Show
    actually someone who was being framed for a lot of things he didn't do and in fact opposed the real bad guys.
    In 2nd Gig, just about everyone knew who the bad guy was when he
    Spoiler
    Show
    was introduced in the 4th episode. Kuze was never seen as the real villain, more as a huge problem.
    Member of the Giants in the Playground Forum Chapter for the Movement to Reunite Gondwana!

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Chuck deciding he has the authority to play God with Jimmy's life in this fashion (and let's not forget with the people in it) is exactly the problem here.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Except he's not playing God in Jimmny's life, he's playing Partner at HHM. Chuck didn't stop Jimmy from working as a public defender (and advocated that doing so would help him build his career), didn't stop Jimmy from working in elder law (and even helped!), didn't stop Jimmy from working at Davis & Main (and, this is key, he could have sunk that with a single phone call; we know from the Magic Flute call that Chuck is very well-respected in the NM legal community), he only intervened when Jimmy affected him. He didn't want Jimmy at his firm, which was ****ty of him, but that was the end of it. Until Jimmy committed multiple felonies and sabotaged HHM and Chuck personally. And even then, Chuck just went after his law license when the repurcussions could potentially have been even more severe. And, frankly, going after the law license isn't really out of hand, considering that, again, Jimmy committed felonies specifically involving professional legal matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    I think considering everything Jimmy did for him, Chuck's behavior is a severe betrayal. This is what I mean by "the ends justify the means": I don't understand the argument that says "Since Jimmy would be a unethical lawyer, anything Chuck does to destroy his law career is right and good." I mean, I guess I understand it, but it is at great odds with my own moral conviction.*
    Spoiler
    Show
    I think my reply above pretty much encapsulated the "Chuck didn't do anything he could to destroy Jimmy's legal career" aspect, so all that's left is the betrayal. Which is significantly less severe, actually; the biggest of Chuck's ******* moves, specifically not hiring Jimmy on as a lawyer in his firm and making Hamlin the fall guy for it, happened before anything that Jimmy did for him. Until Chuck's illness (and let's not mince words, he was ill. It wasn't an electricity allergy, but it was still all illness), Jimmy had been a con-man who grifted and grifted until he stepped on the wrong rock and was about to fall in the drink. Chuck saved him from most likely going to prison, under the promise that Slippin' Jimmy never raise his head again. And then Slippin' Jimmy not only returns, but returns with even more resources and knowledge than ever before! Jimmy didn't start doing anything for Chuck until Chuck had to step down due to not being mentally fit to continue working. Chuck is absolutely an ******* of colossal proportions, and he certainly didn't have an abundance of fondness for Jimmy, but he wasn't motivated by hate, he was motivated by knowing what kind of person Jimmy was and knowing that it would be difficult to keep a lid on that. The "he hates me" bit was a song and dance they put on for the bar to get Jimmy off. It was the reasonable doubt you shoot for when you're guilty but don't want to get punished. It's not something the viewer is supposed to buy into, because the viewer knows that it's 100% completely and factually true that Jimmy really and truly can't keep his hands out of the cookie jar.


    Also, since I know you take every chance you can to plug The Shield, I'm going to toss out a plug for Barry, which is blowing me away right now. Especially Noho Hank, who is just fiercely and intensely likeable.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Tigana, in some ways.

    Spoiler: For Tigana
    Show

    King Brandin is generally treated as a villain by most of the people of Peninsula of the Palm, since he conquered half of them and, in particular, is trying to wipe out any memory of the province of Tigana, using powerful magic that prevents anyone not born there pre-conquest from learning about it. (And by burning their records, smashing their statues, etc)

    But then part of the book is from the POV of his lover, and you realize that he's actually not an evil monster. His reasons aren't good, exactly, he's not secretly saving the world, but he's acting from understandable human impulses like the pain of having his son killed, and he is acting a responsible king trying to keep other kingdoms from conquering him. Not a hero, by any means, but certainly a human doing his best. You really feel for him by the end.


  5. - Top - End - #65
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2016

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    So, I'm really looking for a good story from the "villains" perspective, accept I don't want a normal story from the villains perspective, where the heros are still(even if questionably) heros, and the villain gets whats coming to him.
    No, I just came off "soon I will be invincible" and I want something different.
    Can anyone tell me about stories from the "villains" perspective that show he's the hero. Maybe he's been killing people to save the world, maybe he plays the villain to the actual manipulating jerks hero, biding time to save everyone. Stuff like that, where the BBEG is actually the good guy, but no one believes/knows.
    Dexter is shown from a serial killer's perspective and his decision to make himself judge, juryband executioner would have you rooting against a less charismatic fellow, especially if he wasn't (all but once I think) right.

    We'd have to discuss them via messages but there are a number of IRL events and policies which probably worked out for the best on a hundred year basis but were pretty genocidal or at least colonial.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Also, since I know you take every chance you can to plug The Shield, I'm going to toss out a plug for Barry, which is blowing me away right now. Especially Noho Hank, who is just fiercely and intensely likeable.
    Yes, Barry is quite good. (I'll throw in a comparison to The Shield once more: Barry and Vic Mackey have similar tragic qualities.)

    I would plug Barry more often, but the Emmys seem to be doing quite a good job of it, which is pretty uncommon for good shows.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Yes, Barry is quite good. (I'll throw in a comparison to The Shield once more: Barry and Vic Mackey have similar tragic qualities.)

    I would plug Barry more often, but the Emmys seem to be doing quite a good job of it, which is pretty uncommon for good shows.
    *cough*Better Call Saul*cough*
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    *cough*Better Call Saul*cough*
    I gave up on their Emmy hopes when Michael McKean didn't even get nominated for "Chicanery."

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Winter
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    The short story Snow, Glass, Apples by Neil Gaiman fits the bill quite nicely, it's about Snow white, but told from the Evil queens perspective. (whos isn't evil, while Snow white is very much evil).

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patterner View Post
    The short story Snow, Glass, Apples by Neil Gaiman fits the bill quite nicely, it's about Snow white, but told from the Evil queens perspective. (whos isn't evil, while Snow white is very much evil).
    There is a Looney Toons short like that, but with the Big Bad Wolf and the Three Little Pigs (although, at the end, it's suggested that the whole thing is an unreliable-narrator story the BBW is telling his nephew).

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I gave up on their Emmy hopes when Michael McKean didn't even get nominated for "Chicanery."
    As if they could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just - I just couldn't prove it. They covered their tracks, they got that fantasy show at the premium channel to keep making episodes. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? They've done worse. That Seehorn snub! Are you telling me that a woman just happens to not get nominated like that? No! They orchestrated it! The Emmys! They pandered through an awards show!
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-23 at 10:31 AM.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show

    Spoiler: I'm the sun, I'm the sun
    Show
    Spoiler: I can move I can run
    Show
    Spoiler: But you'll never stop me burning
    Show

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    As if they could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just - I just couldn't prove it. They covered their tracks, they got that fantasy show at the premium channel to keep making episodes. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? They've done worse. That Seehorn snub! Are you telling me that a woman just happens to not get nominated like that? No! They orchestrated it! The Emmys! They pandered through an awards show!
    I finally checked the actual list of winners last night and it turned out absolutely no person or show I really wanted to win did. (I mean, I'm fine with the wins by Barry and Fleabag, but they were not ones I was invested in.)

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    Dexter is shown from a serial killer's perspective and his decision to make himself judge, juryband executioner would have you rooting against a less charismatic fellow, especially if he wasn't (all but once I think) right.

    We'd have to discuss them via messages but there are a number of IRL events and policies which probably worked out for the best on a hundred year basis but were pretty genocidal or at least colonial.
    You find out in 2nd season he's deliberately hiding killers from the cops to kill them himself, but actually being mistaken, yeah Its just once. A fashion guy.
    I Am A:Neutral Good Human Bard/Sorcerer (2nd/1st Level)
    Ability Scores:
    Strength-14
    Dexterity-11
    Constitution-16
    Intelligence-16
    Wisdom-12
    Charisma-16

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •