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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    So, I'm really looking for a good story from the "villains" perspective, accept I don't want a normal story from the villains perspective, where the heros are still(even if questionably) heros, and the villain gets whats coming to him.
    No, I just came off "soon I will be invincible" and I want something different.
    Can anyone tell me about stories from the "villains" perspective that show he's the hero. Maybe he's been killing people to save the world, maybe he plays the villain to the actual manipulating jerks hero, biding time to save everyone. Stuff like that, where the BBEG is actually the good guy, but no one believes/knows.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    So to clarify, you want a story told from the perspective of the "villain," except he's not really the villain and is actually the good guy?

    How about Captain Horrible's Sing-Along Blog?

    EDIT: Whoops, my brain mixed up Captain Hammer and Doctor Horrible.
    Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2019-09-16 at 07:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    So to clarify, you want a story told from the perspective of the "villain," except he's not really the villain and is actually the good guy?

    How about Captain Horrible's Sing-Along Blog?
    You mean doctor horribles sing along blog? Read the Wikipedia article just now. It seems to me to be about a dude who wants to be a villain, gets conflicted by plot reasons, messes up, and then becomes a villain. He's definitly not the good guy here. Neither is the hero, but he isn't either.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Have you seen the movie "Maleficent" ?

    Other than that ... many a conventional hero is the villain of someone else's story. It is just not often mentioned.

    The only figure in literature who comes to mind who is explicitly thought to be (a, not the) villain, is Severus Snape, though lots of people on this forum seem to think that being mean to schoolchildren makes him unredeemable.

    I have considered writing such a story, but you will have to wait until I get a suitable idea. (Writing is very fast. Ideas are slow)
    Last edited by Themrys; 2019-09-16 at 06:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    So to clarify, you want a story told from the perspective of the "villain," except he's not really the villain and is actually the good guy?

    How about Captain Horrible's Sing-Along Blog?
    Doctor Horrible is really not a good guy in that show. He's really, really not. Empathetic? Yes. Likable? Sure. Good? Noooooooo.
    Last edited by huttj509; 2019-09-16 at 06:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Have you seen the movie "Maleficent" ?

    Other than that ... many a conventional hero is the villain of someone else's story. It is just not often mentioned.

    The only figure in literature who comes to mind who is explicitly thought to be (a, not the) villain, is Severus Snape, though lots of people on this forum seem to think that being mean to schoolchildren makes him unredeemable.

    I have considered writing such a story, but you will have to wait until I get a suitable idea. (Writing is very fast. Ideas are slow)
    I am also currently writing such a story. I am now rewriting such a story. Tell you what, when we get done, we'll swap. I wanna read more of these kinds a things.
    Also, on that note, any good old fairy tales rewritten with the villain as the actual hero?
    Online people joke about captain hook as the hero of Peter pan, but does it exist?
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    I think most examples of what the OP is talking about will fall into Hero with Bad Publicity

    like even if you make someone who fulfills all the aesthetics of being a villain but is actually good, that just makes him a hero with different methods and a bad rep. not a villain.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Squint a little and Avatar: The Last Airbender qualifies; specifically the character of Zuko. You start out thinking he's just this madman hunting down the fated savior of the world for no good reason at all, but then you find him risking his life saving a crewman of the ship he commands, and his clearly much nicer uncle constantly sticking his neck out for him, and you start to wonder if there's a little more to him after all. Wouldn't want to spoil the rest.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    You're not looking for a story where the villain is the hero.

    You're looking for the story where the villain is right.

    Being right and being the hero isn't the same thing. A lot of villains are right, that's what makes them good villains. They're right, but they're going about it the wrong way. That's what makes many of the Marvel villains (or in DC, Batmans) so compelling. A lot of times they're absolutely right, often justified in their actions, except the way they go about their actions is cruel, careless, and violent.

    This is the LG/LN/LE divide. Just replace "lawful" with "right". Most heroes are right and good. Many villains are right and evil.

    We're gonna call this the "Thanos paradox". He may be correct that the universe can only support finite life. But his methods are cruel, careless, and violent. That makes him the villain, regardless of if he saves the universe.
    Last edited by False God; 2019-09-16 at 07:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Practical Guide to Evil is about a woman who becomes a Villain and is in the right most of the time.

    Game of Thrones has Danny as a possible villain or hero (world savior or conqueror).

    Mistborn also has this but it is a huge plot spoiler to talk about who and why.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Worm? The protagonist is considered a villain in-universe, but she genuinely wants to make things better.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Practical Guide to Evil is about a woman who becomes a Villain and is in the right most of the time.
    The title made me give this one a pass, but your description intrigues me. To hijack the thread a bit, f you've read Worm, how would you say they compare?
    Last edited by Narkis; 2019-09-16 at 08:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    Worm? The protagonist is considered a villain in-universe, but she genuinely wants to make things better.

    Edit:



    The title made me give this one a pass, but your description intrigues me. To hijack the thread a bit, f you've read Worm, how would you say they compare?
    I haven't read Worm, sadly. It is on my list though.

    I would give it a shot, the title isn't really indicative of the story.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I would give it a shot, the title isn't really indicative of the story.
    Yeah, its more like anti-hero in a fantasy setting that grew up in an evil empire tries to change things for the better from within and from there starts a whole journey about fixing the systemic issues of their world while dealing with narrative forces being literal physics. past the third book, its hardly about said evil empire at all except as just another political force on the continent.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    PGTE is very different from Worm. "Story" plays a big part in how many things play out. "Superpowers" in the world all come in the form of Names, and Names each have 3 Aspects (powers) that they grant, differing from one holder of the Name to another (there can only be one at a time). "Story" or, put another way, "Tropes" can impact chance/luck/fate positively or negatively depending on the story or pattern and where in it you are.

    Some of the Named in-universe are aware of this and deliberately create patterns of threes (draw/defeat/victory), knowing that the 3rd one is always the one that sticks, or try to manipulate the situation such that they or their enemy have the power of story/narrative behind them. I don't go in-depth in figuring things out, so I just enjoy it as it comes.
    Also, I really enjoy the interludes with the Lycaonese. "And yet we stand."

    To address the OP:
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    Last edited by J-H; 2019-09-16 at 10:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    Worm? The protagonist is considered a villain in-universe, but she genuinely wants to make things better.

    Edit:



    The title made me give this one a pass, but your description intrigues me. To hijack the thread a bit, f you've read Worm, how would you say they compare?
    I tend to favor Wildbow's work, so take it with that grain of salt as necessary.

    In terms of universe concepts, it's surprisingly close to Pact. It's quite well-written, and feels like a thematically and character-wise coherent world - something I found very wanting in the Wandering Inn, and slightly lacking in The Gods Are Bastards. I personally think ErraticErrata isn't as good at setting up the scene before letting the dominoes fall as Wildbow is; there's quite a bit of "Take a fourth option that wasn't really set up". In terms of major feelings you get from reading it, it gets a similar desperation tone as any of Wildbow's work, but the feeling is less "The main character is always screwed" and more "The main character is usually screwed." It leaves you with a place to stand, where Wildbow's work leaves me feeling constantly unsteady (in a good way), even at resting points.
    Last edited by uncool; 2019-09-16 at 11:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Better Call Saul.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    The Dire Saga qualifies, I think. A cheerfully hamtastic supervillain in the model of Doctor Doom who wants to fix all of society's ills and problems, opposed by the frankly often-jerkface 'heroes' who defend the status quo. She's genuinely motivated to do good, but finds making her actions in 'villainy' more effective.
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    Dire pits herself in a fight against the universe's Ersatz Superman in a poor/run-down neighborhood, intentionally dragging it out to cause massive property damage before disappearing. She had teleported the thousands of local residents to safety beforehand under the guise of taking hostages, and her actual objective in all of it was to destroy the unsafe water-treatment center that was giving all the locals lead poisoning.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2019-09-16 at 11:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    The late great Roger Zelazny's novel A Night In the Lonesome October sounds like a good fit for your request. It's a story of various famous madmen and monsters engaged in a struggle to save and/or destroy the world, you're really not sure which for a while. And it's told from the point of view of the familiars of the legends engaged in the struggle, so that's an interesting twist. But the main mover trying to save the world is a cursed man called Jack, and in late 19th century London he needs to collect a number of particular human organs as ingredients for the ritual that will preserve the universe as we know it...

    Also, it's illustrated by the amazing Gahan Wilson, so that's a big plus.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Code Geass kind of fits the bill. LeLouch isn't exactly a good person, but he's trying to help.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    What is the difference between a villain who is really a hero, and just a hero? Who says he's a villain?
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Please Don't Tell My Parents I'm A Supervillain is about otherwise good kids who wind up with a rep for supervillainy after a few run-ins with hero types go wrong. Most of the beings in this universe, hero and villain, are relatively decent.

    Which touches on a major point. Having "heroes" and "villains" as teams is the best way to have not-so-bad people on team badguy. The more you move on from that sort of not-so-deep setting, the more that either bad guys will have to do something pretty crummy in order to get slapped with the villain label, or your world has to be a crapsack in order to have Robin Hood be relevant and get enough bad press to be called a villain.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    What is the difference between a villain who is really a hero, and just a hero? Who says he's a villain?
    The OP might be looking for examples of The Extremist Was Right

    none of those examples are of good people necessarily, but show that the results of their methods do improve things in some way. though often the examples on that page are of villains holding off a greater threat that the protagonist defeats on their defeating the bigger one, or villains trying to do something that while horrible would've solved something later if not foiled, or people like Lex Luthor or Doctor Doom who are these fantastic geniuses who show that they can truly improve the world if they try but are too caught up in their personal jealousies to work to their full potential, or major side characters who reform the major parts of the world politically through amoral or questionable means.

    Its rare this kind of person is the main character, and are a good set up for plots where defeating them unleashes an unknown greater evil or problem and the protagonist has to fix the systems underlying problem a different way than just punching it out.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    The Dire Saga qualifies, I think. A cheerfully hamtastic supervillain in the model of Doctor Doom who wants to fix all of society's ills and problems, opposed by the frankly often-jerkface 'heroes' who defend the status quo. She's genuinely motivated to do good, but finds making her actions in 'villainy' more effective.
    Spoiler: Example from Book 3
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    Dire pits herself in a fight against the universe's Ersatz Superman in a poor/run-down neighborhood, intentionally dragging it out to cause massive property damage before disappearing. She had teleported the thousands of local residents to safety beforehand under the guise of taking hostages, and her actual objective in all of it was to destroy the unsafe water-treatment center that was giving all the locals lead poisoning.
    This sounds perfect.
    Quote Originally Posted by PontificatusRex View Post
    The late great Roger Zelazny's novel A Night In the Lonesome October sounds like a good fit for your request. It's a story of various famous madmen and monsters engaged in a struggle to save and/or destroy the world, you're really not sure which for a while. And it's told from the point of view of the familiars of the legends engaged in the struggle, so that's an interesting twist. But the main mover trying to save the world is a cursed man called Jack, and in late 19th century London he needs to collect a number of particular human organs as ingredients for the ritual that will preserve the universe as we know it...

    Also, it's illustrated by the amazing Gahan Wilson, so that's a big plus.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    The Legacy of Kain series might qualify. Lots of Grey and Grey morality at work in that story.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    The OP might be looking for examples of The Extremist Was Right

    none of those examples are of good people necessarily, but show that the results of their methods do improve things in some way.
    I'm sure some of them are good guys, but they don't see any other way (and there sometimes isn't). Klaus Wulfenbach is a prime example of it. They called him a tyrant and a villain for most of the first part of the series, but after a timeskip people look back at his rule as a lost Golden Age. The timeskip was only 2 1/2 years, which shows how bad things got and how fast it all went downhill.
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    So, I'm really looking for a good story from the "villains" perspective, accept I don't want a normal story from the villains perspective, where the heros are still(even if questionably) heros, and the villain gets whats coming to him.
    No, I just came off "soon I will be invincible" and I want something different.
    Can anyone tell me about stories from the "villains" perspective that show he's the hero. Maybe he's been killing people to save the world, maybe he plays the villain to the actual manipulating jerks hero, biding time to save everyone. Stuff like that, where the BBEG is actually the good guy, but no one believes/knows.
    Sounds to me like you're looking for what some call an "anti-hero" :)

    First one that pops to my mind, is "Pitch Black" (movie yes, are you asking specifically for books? or movies?)
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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    If you're willing to go into an incomplete series where the question of whether or not the protagonist is the 'good guy' is probably never going to be answered, you could give The Traitor Baru Cormorant a go.

    Main character comes from a culture that was colonized and subsumed by an empire that prioritizes economic and cultural power as much or more than military might. Decides to get revenge for her people the only way she can see, which is to rise as high as possible within the empire to crash it from the inside. Given that she's operating as one of their agents, being sent into other nations
    and client states to gradually undermine them and remove their ability to resist, the opportunities to act as a double/triple/quadruple agent abound - but making her move too early will only strengthen the empire she hates.

    The book is basically one long investigation of when and whether the ends justify the means: how terrible can someone be in the service of a greater good without becoming a monster? How great must an evil be to justify a lesser but still terrible evil meant to prevent it?

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    So, I'm really looking for a good story from the "villains" perspective, accept I don't want a normal story from the villains perspective, where the heros are still(even if questionably) heros, and the villain gets whats coming to him.
    No, I just came off "soon I will be invincible" and I want something different.
    Can anyone tell me about stories from the "villains" perspective that show he's the hero. Maybe he's been killing people to save the world, maybe he plays the villain to the actual manipulating jerks hero, biding time to save everyone. Stuff like that, where the BBEG is actually the good guy, but no one believes/knows.
    Here is a story that I think meets your description:


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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    The OP might be looking for examples of The Extremist Was Right
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I think most examples of what the OP is talking about will fall into Hero with Bad Publicity
    Between these two and Villain has a point, I think we have a good selection from which the OP can refine his actual request.

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    Default Re: Stories where the bad guy, is really the goodguy

    Ben Reilly, Scarlet Spider?
    He has a comic.
    He is sort of the villian in the past. Although the personification of Death thinks he is cute.

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