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    DrowGuy

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    Default How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Ok, we have a Ranger, a Cleric, a Rogue, a Wizard (Conjurer), a Paladin and a Bard go up against a Pit Friend. And all the six heroes are at Level 20. So do you think this will be an even fight for a balanced party to go up against a pit fiend from world domination?
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2019-09-16 at 08:42 PM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    If anything, the pit fiend is outmatched in pound-for-pound abilities. Action economy would give even just two of those level 20 PC's an advantage. That said, we don't know anything about the encounter beyond the barest bones of the participants, and circumstances, stronghold, and reinforcements could send the balance of the fight in either direction.
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    They are going to wipe the floor with that pathetic demon in roughly 3 rounds, if not less.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by legomaster00156 View Post
    If anything, the pit fiend is outmatched in pound-for-pound abilities. Action economy would give even just two of those level 20 PC's an advantage. That said, we don't know anything about the encounter beyond the barest bones of the participants, and circumstances, stronghold, and reinforcements could send the balance of the fight in either direction.
    Well the location is at an urban setting at the human world. Not the other plane. and it's only the six heroes versus pit fiend battling each other.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Unless you're willing either to advance that Pit Fiend with about a crapton of class levels, or give him enough magic items so as to have the wealth of a small nation, he's getting wiped bad.

    Like, not even a contest for the PCs.

    On a side note, 6v1 is reeeeeaaally hard to get right. Action economy counts for so much, and you have to either make his defenses nigh impenetrable, or he's going down. Problem is that making defenses really good usually result in offense being really good (not always, but does happen, especially with class levels rather than items)
    Last edited by heavyfuel; 2019-09-16 at 10:58 PM.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Well, it does depend on how they prepare and how smart they play. Pit fiends aren't just sacks of HP. Their spell likes are a real threat. Wish 1/year? Yes. Summon only slightly lesser devils, which can themselves summon more. So much fire damage.

    Even 6 level 20 characters have to prep for a pit fiend. They *should* win, but mistakes will be costly.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    The Pit fiend is exactly cr20 which counts as an 'average' encounter provided you don't increase APL for the parties numbers. Unless he is a meant to be an 'easy' encounter he is going to need help. If he is a boss he is definitely going to need some prepwork of his own with help.

    Be sure to use his spells to great effect (he is going to need everything he can get to be a challenge to the party.)


    If the party is under optimized or even unaware of the pit fiend beforehand (like no anti devil prep) he might stop them in their tracks for a moment.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Agree with those that have gone before me. That pitfiend is toast. For a real challenge players need level + (2-5 depending on optimizatoon)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by legomaster00156 View Post
    If anything, the pit fiend is outmatched in pound-for-pound abilities. Action economy would give even just two of those level 20 PC's an advantage. That said, we don't know anything about the encounter beyond the barest bones of the participants, and circumstances, stronghold, and reinforcements could send the balance of the fight in either direction.
    I'll second (or third or whatever) these questions. With a little prep and a favorable encounter, the paladin could kill the pit fiend in one full attack. How optimized the party is (both in terms of builds and tactics) is also very important.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysiume View Post
    How optimized the party is (both in terms of builds and tactics) is also very important.
    This. An even semi-optimized party will faceroll this easily, but for a really unoptimized party it could be a tough battle. Although I think they'd still win unless the Pit Fiend was being played a lot better than the PCs.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    I will say that a Pit Fiend has superhuman intellect and great sway among demons. They should never be caught fully unawares, and should have a decent set of allies with them.
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    The Wizard and the Cleric can already Solo it. You have to put some extra creatures in the encounter.

    Please help/contribute in creating the: Complete list of Magically Created Constructs, Elementals etc

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Ok, we have a Ranger, a Cleric, a Rogue, a Wizard (Conjurer), a Paladin and a Bard go up against a Pit Friend. And all the six heroes are at Level 20. So do you think this will be an even fight for a balanced party to go up against a pit fiend from world domination?
    Let the wizard alone and give the Pit Fiend a buddy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Well, a lot of it does depend on various things not stated, however:
    A CR 20 Pit Fiend is intended to be an average encounter for a party of four. You have a party of six. Unless there's a significant (dis)advantage on one side or the other not stated (differences in optimization levels, gear, tactics, et cetera; one side or the other having allies, terrain advantage, extra (un)lucky rolls, et cetera), the game's basic design says the Pit Fiend should get slaughtered.


    Quote Originally Posted by satorian View Post
    Well, it does depend on how they prepare and how smart they play. Pit fiends aren't just sacks of HP. Their spell likes are a real threat. Wish 1/year? Yes. Summon only slightly lesser devils, which can themselves summon more. So much fire damage.
    Chain summoning doesn't work, due to a clause in the Summoning Subschool: "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have" (Calling effects don't have that clause).

    So you can't summon a critter that then summons a critter.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2019-09-17 at 07:34 AM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    If your players understand char-op at all, this is trivial. If the fiend gets a bad initiative, i'd expect it to not even survive long enough to take that turn. I would expect any basic-optimized party of TWO to be able to take one on, and plenty of builds can solo encounters like that.

    This plan for world domination is going to last 6-12 seconds at best. You need to throw something MUCH more dangerous down, preferably with minions.

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    RedKnightGirl

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    d6 Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    For those of you who say the wizard alone can stop this pit fiend. My 11th level wizard does an average of 17 points per round. With a Miss saving throw of like 34 points per round.

    The wizard is a Summoner. Show a protection from anything good evil law chaos means that none of his summon creatures going to attack.

    Please explain to me how this wizard round by round can destroy a pit fiend
    9 wisdom true neutral cleric you know you want me in your adventuring party


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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    For those of you who say the wizard alone can stop this pit fiend. My 11th level wizard does an average of 17 points per round. With a Miss saving throw of like 34 points per round.

    The wizard is a Summoner. Show a protection from anything good evil law chaos means that none of his summon creatures going to attack.

    Please explain to me how this wizard round by round can destroy a pit fiend
    Please re-read the OP, where it it specified that every PC is 20th level. So advance your wizard to level 20 and think about this again.

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    d6 Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by exelsisxax View Post
    Please re-read the OP, where it it specified that every PC is 20th level. So advance your wizard to level 20 and think about this again.

    I have wizard alone does round by round for the stupid player like me. I do not wish to image a fight give me both sides.
    9 wisdom true neutral cleric you know you want me in your adventuring party


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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    I suppose the Pit Friend should add a few minions to make this fight difficult. But with the Cleric and the Wizard (Conjurer), it still wouldn't make any differences anyway.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    I have wizard alone does round by round for the stupid player like me. I do not wish to image a fight give me both sides.
    Ok, i'm not a D&D expert, i know better pathfinder. A lot depends on who wins initiative, the wizard has a few ways to increase their initiative to match that of a Pit Fiend (familiar with initiative bonus, improved initiative, and high dexterity trough magic items), but let's say the wizard loses initiative, otherwise this fight begins with time stop. I assume wizard has spell turning and contingency active, because i don't find a real reason he shouldn't, if he made researches on his foe's abilities.

    Possible openings for the Pit Fiend:

    "Quickened fireball", "power word: stun" -> Spell turning has 75% of probability of reflecting "power word: stun", which doesn't have an effect on the devil. The fireball hurts, but it doesn't kill the wizard.

    "Quickened fireball", "Mass hold monsters" -> Spell turning has 50% of probabilities of reflecting this spell, which would have an effect on the devil. DC is 27, so a wizard with +0 wisdom and a cloak of resistance +5 has 11/20 chances of overcoming it.
    So, these are the results of this tactic:
    4.4% the Pit Fiend reflect hold monsters on himself, the spell overcome spell resistance and he fails the will save. The Pit Fiend is blocked
    73.1% The spell fails, either because it's reflected, but the monster resist it, or because the wizard succeeds his saving throw.
    22.5% The spell hold the wizard in the first round, the subsequent round wizard has another will save.

    Movement + Tail slap + grapple -> nasty, but wizard should have freedom of movement active

    Quickened fireball, ready an action: fireball if the wizard casts a spell -> the actual good idea, i don't remember how this worked in 3.5, but in pathfinder this thing pretty much disables the enemy caster. BTW i would hate as a master using such a cheap tactic.

    Wish: read the note above, wish is once for year, it's unlikely for the Pit Fiend opening the fight this way.

    So, if i haven't forgotten anything, best chance for the Pit Fiend is Power Word: Stun, which gives him 25% of probability of winning the fight the first round.

    BTW Wizard has contingency, which i would spell like "if i'm unable to cast spells teleport to my sanctum"

    Wizard turn:

    Time stop, gate: call a solar, teleport home (inside my permanent prismatic sphere)

    Edit: i just noticed that if quickened fireball triggered spell turning one of the main defences on the wizard part would have fallen, BTW spell turning is not triggered by AOE effects, so the argument is still valid.
    Edit 2: oh, it's pathfinder, the main argument is the same, main difference is that in pathfinder you cannot control a solar with Gate, but the defences on the wizard side and the Pit Fiend tactics are basically the same, i'll update tomorrow.
    Edit 3: i'm lazy, i don't want to figure an alternative tactic, so if have the feat " Spell Specialization" on gate your CL becomes 22, so you can actually control a Solar.
    Last edited by Selion; 2019-09-17 at 03:51 PM.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    They are going to wipe the floor with that pathetic demon in roughly 3 rounds, if not less.
    Pit Friend is a devil, not a demon.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Pit Friend is a devil, not a demon.
    Semantics. You are seriously going to nitpick that tiny detail out of the long list of reasons why this is going to be an absolute stomping?

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    This can give you an idea of how difficult an encounter should be:

    http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

    In this case, it comes out as "easy".

    The challenge rating system tends to assume not-very-optimised PCs, so you may need to adjust the difficulty if you have an even moderately optimised party.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Semantics. You are seriously going to nitpick that tiny detail out of the long list of reasons why this is going to be an absolute stomping?
    Just wanted to correct you. That's all.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    If a level 20 Wizard is ever, EVER going head to head with a Pit Fiend:

    (1) The wizard can roflstomp (excluding maliciously unoptimized builds, like a Focused Specialist Enchanter banning Conjuration, Illusion, and Transmutation)

    (2) The wizard has already failed to optimise.

    A level 20 Wizard can exist in his own private realm, directly controlling his own flesh puppets directly to cast his spells, and he can have 20 contingencies to Teleport him to his personal 1:10000000 time speed Demiplane so he can mobilize his army of CoDZilla Ice Assassins to curb stomp anyone, anywhere. He can Teleport through time to kill you as a baby. He can call the most powerful creatures in existence and bind them to his will. He is beyond all other mortals (not that divinity has anything to stop him).

    A level 20 Wizard, without even prestige classes, can wipe anything off the map without a thought.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    If a level 20 Wizard is ever, EVER going head to head with a Pit Fiend:

    (1) The wizard can roflstomp (excluding maliciously unoptimized builds, like a Focused Specialist Enchanter banning Conjuration, Illusion, and Transmutation)

    (2) The wizard has already failed to optimise.

    A level 20 Wizard can exist in his own private realm, directly controlling his own flesh puppets directly to cast his spells, and he can have 20 contingencies to Teleport him to his personal 1:10000000 time speed Demiplane so he can mobilize his army of CoDZilla Ice Assassins to curb stomp anyone, anywhere. He can Teleport through time to kill you as a baby. He can call the most powerful creatures in existence and bind them to his will. He is beyond all other mortals (not that divinity has anything to stop him).

    A level 20 Wizard, without even prestige classes, can wipe anything off the map without a thought.
    This is a pathfinder thread, friend. So nothing in your post is actually accurate.
    Last edited by exelsisxax; 2019-09-17 at 09:37 PM.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Well,

    (1) I didn't realize that.

    (2) it's not accurate to PATHFINDER, but it is accurate to D&D 3.5e (although granted, that doesn't actually help OP).

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Pit Friend is a devil, not a demon.
    Actually, a Pit Friend is a buddy you tossed into a well.
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Darn it. I hate auto correct. I meant Pit Fiend, not Pit Friend.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    (not that divinity has anything to stop him).
    Sure they do.

    Any deity with the Alter Reality Salient Divine Ability is a Wizard+ right out of the box. Any spell as a standard action - which includes Wish (see the create magic items clause), Ice Assasin, and Time Stop - with no components required. Oh yes, and they can also make effects permanent - with only a rest clause - which theoretically means they can go into Time Stop and stay there as long as they want (They'll need to rest up a bit after making the Time Stop permanent, but... a Time Stop that lasts until dispelled? The deity literally has as much time as is desired). This is at will, right out of the box, by picking just one ability. Anything a Wizard can do, a deity with Alter Reality can also do, and generally faster. Especially if the deity in question also has Wizard levels for Quicken Spell on actual slots. Sure, few if any of the WotC printed deities don't know anything about optimization... but you could say the same for WotC printed Wizards, too.

    If the player gets to optimize, why not the deity?

    Quote Originally Posted by legomaster00156 View Post
    Actually, a Pit Friend is a buddy you tossed into a well.
    ... you don't play around with Charm spells on the lower planes?
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2019-09-17 at 09:59 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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