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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Well, the point is moot, because the Wizard can effectively do that too... In that, he can simply choose to become a deity. It's quite easy, honestly. All it requires is a few godly hairs and a whole lot of squirrels.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Buufreak's Avatar

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    ... but not in PF, where epic and divine ranks don't exist.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    Well, the point is moot, because the Wizard can effectively do that too... In that, he can simply choose to become a deity. It's quite easy, honestly. All it requires is a few godly hairs and a whole lot of squirrels.
    You don't require "beat" to invalidate your point - merely "stop." If they're tied, then the deity can interfere with the Wizard's actions well enough for "stop" to be met.

    At the upper limit of 3.5 optimization, everyone is pun-pun (including the Pit Fiend - consider what happens if that 1/year free Wish was used a few centuries ago to make a simulacrum of a 40th level Wizard build, thus putting a perfectly loyal 20th-level Wizard build under the pit-fiend's control: It's entirely possible for the Pit Fiend to be Pun-Pun, too), and thus, everyone is tied (or at least, non-deterministic). What happens before that upper limit, though?

    Optimization is rather difficult to quantify, but if you assume "equal" optimization of available resources, then the game generally goes to the either the party with the better starting set of resources, or the party with more time to prepare. Additionally, not all sources are accepted at all tables. Let's look at those:

    Starting Resources?
    "Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well" - deity gets more starting resources than does a wizard, at least in terms of character build options, and can absolutely be Wizard+[a bunch of useful stuff]. A+B > A when B > 0 and A has some defined finite value.

    Time?
    In the *vast* majority of campaign worlds, the deities pre-date the PC's. Generally by a lot. Deity gets more time to prepare, too. Other scenarios might happen, but are table-dependent and I imagine they're very rare (although there is that one module with Vecna's ascension, but that was intended to be an edition transition adventure, so the 3.5 rules wouldn't be in play).

    Sources?
    If you're doing the comparison with actual builds, Deities and Demigods must of necessity be in play on the Divine side for the comparison to be possible (if not, deities are unstatted, and thus, can't be fought, as they're essentially the DM's whim, which trumps all rules - no comparison can be made). Any book added will increase the possibilities for the deity build at least as much as the Wizard build (usually more - Alter Reality grants native access to all spell lists). Meanwhile, the pun-pun keystone is in a moderately obscure book (Serpent Kingdoms) and is often banned at tables for bad balance (even ignoring the Sarrukh and Manipulate Form), and Frostburn (the source of the keystone for the Wizard's route to divinity - Ice Assasin) isn't going to be everywhere either. Add those two keystone books, and the wizard can tie the deity. Add any other sources, and the deity still wins.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2019-09-17 at 10:40 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    As it is, the Pit Fiend does not stand a chance. A CR below the Average Level of the Party will be matched easily. To fix that, if you want a challenging fight, you should pump the CR of the encounter by 3 to 5, depending the optimisation level of the party. A quick fix might to give the Cleric template to the Pit Fiend (CR +3). With that, he should have enough spells to cast several Planar Ally (conjuring a Bearded Devil every day, keeping the 20 of them as bodyguards). Even if the Bearded Devils will be just annoying to the "Heroes", they will let the Pit Fiend get a better Action Economy to even the odds (taking Quicken Spell feat could help there as well).
    If you want to be more mean, you can add a few HD to the Pit Fiend, bringing him to 22+ HD to get Greater Planar Allies (Nemesis and/or Apostate Devil) to add to the fray.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Septimus View Post
    As it is, the Pit Fiend does not stand a chance. A CR below the Average Level of the Party will be matched easily. To fix that, if you want a challenging fight, you should pump the CR of the encounter by 3 to 5, depending the optimisation level of the party. A quick fix might to give the Cleric template to the Pit Fiend (CR +3). With that, he should have enough spells to cast several Planar Ally (conjuring a Bearded Devil every day, keeping the 20 of them as bodyguards). Even if the Bearded Devils will be just annoying to the "Heroes", they will let the Pit Fiend get a better Action Economy to even the odds (taking Quicken Spell feat could help there as well).
    If you want to be more mean, you can add a few HD to the Pit Fiend, bringing him to 22+ HD to get Greater Planar Allies (Nemesis and/or Apostate Devil) to add to the fray.
    Hmm..I like the Cleric Template.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    For casual creatures that don't need to be uber-optimized to a stitch, I honestly enjoy the SLA metamagic feats. IIRC pit fiends have quicken SLA on fireball, but you're better off putting it on their dispel. Give Quicken SLA to the devils they summon as well, and you've got a much better action economy.

    If you want this encounter to actually be challenging at that level, even to a lower-op party, add more monsters or have the confrontation come after a big encounter that tempts the PCs to use their big stuff.

    What are your players' usual tactics?
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-09-18 at 06:57 PM.

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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    For casual creatures that don't need to be uber-optimized to a stitch, I honestly enjoy the SLA metamagic feats. IIRC pit fiends have quicken SLA on fireball, but you're better off putting it on their teleport or dispel. Give Quicken SLA to the devils they summon as well, and you've got a much better action economy.

    If you want this encounter to actually be challenging at that level, even to a lower-op party, add more monsters or have the confrontation come after a big encounter that tempts the PCs to use their big stuff.

    What are your players' usual tactics?
    Ranger: Attack with arrows
    Cleric: Spells and close combat
    Rogue: Close Combat and Sneak Attack
    Wizard (Conjurer): Summon monsters and spells
    Paladin: Close combat and spellls
    Bard: Spells

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    I know, but like, what kind of spells?

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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    I know, but like, what kind of spells?
    Wizard (Conjurer): Clashing Rock, Summon Monster IX, Tsumani, Wooden Phalanx

    Bard: Charm Mass Monster, Cure Mass Moderate Wounds, Deadly Finale, Summon Monster VI, Touch Of Slumber

    Cleric: True Resurrection, Storm of Vengeance, Miracle, Mass Heal, Implosion

    Paladin: Burst of Glory, Burst with Light, Cure Serious Wounds

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    It looks like you're dealing with a lot of summoned monsters (Summon Monster 7&9, Wooden Phalanx), so you'll want the pit fiend to have a bunch of minions/allies who can intercept those and deal with them.

    For Clashing Rocks, you probably want him to have some form of immediate interrupt that lets him get out of the way of it. Although the image of a pit fiend getting buried under a pile of rubble is pretty cool so it's not a big loss if he dies that way.

    Implosion - For the minions whose purpose is to keep the summoned monsters busy, it's not a big problem if they get whacked off by this, if anything it's a win because that's a turn the cleric isn't focused on the pit fiend.

    Mass Heal - Pit fiends don't really have a way of dealing enough damage to KO someone in one round so this means it will be using Trap the Soul a lot. Quickened fireball could be a way of trying to get the cleric to waste his turn on Mass Heal, though dispelling is still the priority.

    Miracle - be ready for what you'll do if the cleric uses its request function to try and win. Don't just say no, have something cool happen just not an auto-win.

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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    It looks like you're dealing with a lot of summoned monsters (Summon Monster 7&9, Wooden Phalanx), so you'll want the pit fiend to have a bunch of minions/allies who can intercept those and deal with them.

    For Clashing Rocks, you probably want him to have some form of immediate interrupt that lets him get out of the way of it. Although the image of a pit fiend getting buried under a pile of rubble is pretty cool so it's not a big loss if he dies that way.

    Implosion - For the minions whose purpose is to keep the summoned monsters busy, it's not a big problem if they get whacked off by this, if anything it's a win because that's a turn the cleric isn't focused on the pit fiend.

    Mass Heal - Pit fiends don't really have a way of dealing enough damage to KO someone in one round so this means it will be using Trap the Soul a lot. Quickened fireball could be a way of trying to get the cleric to waste his turn on Mass Heal, though dispelling is still the priority.

    Miracle - be ready for what you'll do if the cleric uses its request function to try and win. Don't just say no, have something cool happen just not an auto-win.
    What can I say? It's a summon party.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    summons can't attack the pit fiend and can be completely ignored. If you have minions though, when the summons attempt to intercept taking control of them could be an option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    summons can't attack the pit fiend and can be completely ignored. If you have minions though, when the summons attempt to intercept taking control of them could be an option.
    Really? I didn't know that.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Really? I didn't know that.
    It has magic circle against good at will and unholy aura at will. It will pretty much always have these up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    It has magic circle against good at will and unholy aura at will. It will pretty much always have these up.
    Thank you for letting me know about that information.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    summons can't attack the pit fiend and can be completely ignored. If you have minions though, when the summons attempt to intercept taking control of them could be an option.
    Not true, because PF unholy aura doesn't protect against the golems from wooden phalanx which are [creations], or against neutral summons, and the protection vs summoning ends if the devil makes an attack which is liable to happen.

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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Not true, because PF unholy aura doesn't protect against the golems from wooden phalanx which are [creations], or against neutral summons, and the protection vs summoning ends if the devil makes an attack which is liable to happen.
    Eh, it can ignore the summoned creatures and concentrate on spells. Why would it attack the summons when they are virtually useless?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Any attack, not just vs summons. Yes, it's probably going to be using trap the soul or whatever not attacking. [Actually, casting an offensive spell might count as attacking in PF terms, as with 3.5 invisibility -- I'm not sure.] Point still stands that it doesn't affect the wood golems or neutral summons, which any caster who knows their stuff will summon when facing it.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-09-20 at 08:43 PM.

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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Oh yeah I forgot that the Ranger also has spells but he rarely uses spells.

    Ranger: Aspect Of The Wolf, Cure Serious Wounds, Summon Nature's Ally IV

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    If the summons somehow matter at all, blasphemy will do a pretty good job of sweeping the board of nonevil creatures (including banishing extraplanar outright, never mind the whole dazed/weakened/paralyzed/killed thing)

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by tiercel View Post
    If the summons somehow matter at all, blasphemy will do a pretty good job of sweeping the board of nonevil creatures (including banishing extraplanar outright, never mind the whole dazed/weakened/paralyzed/killed thing)
    Believe it or not, summon monster 3,, 4 and 5 could very much cause a problem for a pit fiend if they are optimized for it. Lantern archons in enough numbers can take down anything in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Believe it or not, summon monster 3,, 4 and 5 could very much cause a problem for a pit fiend if they are optimized for it. Lantern archons in enough numbers can take down anything in the game.
    Really? No kidding.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Really? No kidding.
    They bypass all dr, and deal light damage which nothing has resistance to. It's ex, so not stopped by anti magic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by satorian
    Summon only slightly lesser devils, which can themselves summon more.
    The devils summoned with the Pit Fiend's (or any other monster's, as a rule) summon ability can't use their own summon SLA for an hour.

    Sooo.. if it has time to set things up, sure, but if not, no.

    Also...

    Even 6 level 20 characters have to prep for a pit fiend. They *should* win, but mistakes will be costly.
    lolwhat? 6 level 20 characters, including two full casters and a martial specifically classes to wreck evil outsiders, should barely even notice a pit fiend. As others have said, it's an average encounter for a party of four level 20 PCs. 6 is overkill, if you're just talking about 6v1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Smith
    Chain summoning doesn't work, due to a clause in the Summoning Subschool: "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have" (Calling effects don't have that clause).

    So you can't summon a critter that then summons a critter.
    See above. The Summon (sp) ability does allow them to summon others, but not for an hour after being summoned.

    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/ru...TOC-Summon-Sp-

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor
    For those of you who say the wizard alone can stop this pit fiend. My 11th level wizard does an average of 17 points per round. With a Miss saving throw of like 34 points per round.
    Outside of veeeeeerry specific builds, trying to defeat things with damage spells is a really bad way to approach things as a wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu
    Believe it or not, summon monster 3,, 4 and 5 could very much cause a problem for a pit fiend if they are optimized for it. Lantern archons in enough numbers can take down anything in the game.
    Lantern Archons have a +3 to hit, range of 30ft, and do 1d6 with their light rays, while even the base Pit Fiend is going to have a touch AC of 22 (18 +4 deflection from Unholy Aura). So these archons will hit on a 19 or 20, maybe once before being obliterated like whoah by the 40ft radius spread of Blasphemy at-will.

    I guess if you somehow summoned like a thousand lantern archons, they might prove a problem, but I doubt otherwise I doubt it.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoalpha View Post

    Lantern Archons have a +3 to hit, range of 30ft, and do 1d6 with their light rays, while even the base Pit Fiend is going to have a touch AC of 22 (18 +4 deflection from Unholy Aura). So these archons will hit on a 19 or 20, maybe once before being obliterated like whoah by the 40ft radius spread of Blasphemy at-will.

    I guess if you somehow summoned like a thousand lantern archons, they might prove a problem, but I doubt otherwise I doubt it.
    1000 lantern archons ibstagib a pit fiend as that is 200d6 (1/10 chance vs 1000 x 2 attacks)

    Meanwhile, in reality, a good lvl 4 summon from a dedicated summoner hits 1d3 + 2 average 4 for a 40% chance of hitting 1 d6.

    Not much right? But it's about 8d6 of unreducable damage over 20 rounds. And if he uses his standard to wipe em out? Yay, my 4th lvl spell ate his action.

    Of course, my summoner would spam it hitting a few dozen during the combat all spread so he couldn't wipe em in 1 shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    So what's the verdict? Is summons a good idea or a bad idea against the Pit Fiend?

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    So what's the verdict? Is summons a good idea or a bad idea against the Pit Fiend?
    Optimized summoning is good against everything. Are the party optimized?

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by exelsisxax View Post
    Optimized summoning is good against everything. Are the party optimized?
    Yes, they are. Nobody didn't die meaning they're optimized.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Yes, they are. Nobody didn't die meaning they're optimized.
    I'm so sorry for the TPK.

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    Default Re: How Balanced Is A Team Of Six Heroes Goes Up Against The Devil?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    I'm so sorry for the TPK.
    What's TPK stands for?

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