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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    So I think my sor-lock might be leveling up this weekend (and I can go sorc 10 on my sorc 3 / lock 3 character) and I'm wondering if taking the heightened metamagic would be worth it against enemies with the ability to choose to succeed on their saving throw against spells.

    What happened when you heighten a spell against a foe who can auto-succeed on their saving throw against spells?
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    If you are referring to legendary resistances, I believe LR states a monster can choose to succeed on a saving throw they failed x times/long rest.

    So heighten would increase the chances they are forced to use 1 of their LRs.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    If you really want to go the route of burning through what is probably 3 legendary resistances, then heighten meta-magic helps that happen faster. However, unless half the party is right there with you in trying to burn through legendary resistance, you're probably better off focusing on attack roll spells or buffing the party, in hopes of getting the enemy's health to 0 faster.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    If you really want to go the route of burning through what is probably 3 legendary resistances, then heighten meta-magic helps that happen faster. However, unless half the party is right there with you in trying to burn through legendary resistance, you're probably better off focusing on attack roll spells or buffing the party, in hopes of getting the enemy's health to 0 faster.
    Sadly using ranged to-hit spells doesn't always work. We once had to go up against a guy who had legendary resistances, Counterspell, Evasion and the ability to reflect any magical projectiles back at the sender. Only weapon attacks hit him and my light cleric was useless for attacking during that combat.
    Last edited by samcifer; 2019-09-17 at 05:41 PM.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Sadly using ranged to-hit spells doesn't always work. We once had to go up against a guy who had legendary resistances, Counterspell, Evasion and the ability to reflect any magical projectiles back at the sender. Only weapon attacks hit him and my light cleric was useless for attacking during that combat.
    In that case a bless for your party members and a spiritual weapon (cast more then 60 feet from the enemy, or in full cover) would have been useful. Spend actions dodging/healing/sacred flaming.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    In that case a bless for your party members and a spiritual weapon (cast more then 60 feet from the enemy, or in full cover) would have been useful. Spend actions dodging/healing/sacred flaming.
    I tried to cast sw, that's how I learned he had counterspell. :(
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    I tried to cast sw, that's how I learned he had counterspell. :(
    Remember it has 60' range. That's huge in caster vs. caster battles.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Remember it has 60' range. That's huge in caster vs. caster battles.
    Yeah, I'm not used to going up against rival casters, so I didn't know what to do, really. My level of experience as a player still isn't very high, so in situations like this, I never really know what to do.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    On counterspell:

    Also, does your DM allow you to know what spell is being cast before you counterspell it?

    If not, then you should not let the DM know what spells you are casting either. Usually, counterspell is a limited resource since they only have so many slots like LR. So if you are casting a spell, just say that and ask if the NPC is counterspelling (if needed write the spell down to keep things above board). This way the NPC doesn't know if you are casting a cantrip, spiritual weapon or banish before they need to decide to use a counterspell or not.

    On burning through LR:

    It can be a struggle to burn through LR unless you have enough spell casters to make it worthwhile who can target weak saves on the creature. The creature only chooses to use LR after failing its save. If it is proficient in the save then it has a decent chance to pass before using LR. Heighten will increase the chance of a failed save but it will usually take several spell casters a few rounds of combat to burn through LR so this can sometimes only be useful if the party doesn't have the ability to deal significant hit point damage.
    Last edited by Keravath; 2019-09-18 at 09:11 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    On counterspell:

    Also, does your DM allow you to know what spell is being cast before you counterspell it?

    If not, then you should not let the DM know what spells you are casting either. Usually, counterspell is a limited resource since they only have so many slots like LR. So if you are casting a spell, just say that and ask if the NPC is counterspelling (if needed write the spell down to keep things above board). This way the NPC doesn't know if you are casting a cantrip, spiritual weapon or banish before they need to decide to use a counterspell or not.

    On burning through LR:

    It can be a struggle to burn through LR unless you have enough spell casters to make it worthwhile who can target weak saves on the creature. The creature only chooses to use LR after failing its save. If it is proficient in the save then it has a decent chance to pass before using LR. Heighten will increase the chance of a failed save but it will usually take several spell casters a few rounds of combat to burn through LR so this can sometimes only be useful if the party doesn't have the ability to deal significant hit point damage.
    I announced to him that I was casting spiritual weapon next to him and he replied that the enemy counterspelled it. We don't go up against many enemy spellcasters who can use it.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    I announced to him that I was casting spiritual weapon next to him and he replied that the enemy counterspelled it. We don't go up against many enemy spellcasters who can use it.
    So while there was no stopping the Counterspell in this instance, next time you could make sure to be 65' away from the enemy caster before casting Spiritual Weapon. That way you can still create it adjacent to him but you are outside the range of their Counterspell.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    @OP - it doesn't affect their ability to automatically succeed, but like has already been stated, you increase their chance of failure, which could have them use a legendary resistance (depending on how your DM runs it).

    @Counterspell - I have my players announce they are casting a spell (without naming it) and pause if they are worried about it being countered. Counterspellers only know the spell if it's on their list. When I run the casters, I will do the same if counterspell is available.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Yeah, I'm not used to going up against rival casters, so I didn't know what to do, really. My level of experience as a player still isn't very high, so in situations like this, I never really know what to do.
    Things to know about counterspell

    1: It's only really available to arcane casters. So against divine casters (cleric/paladin), or nature casters (druid/ranger), you won't need to worry about it. But a dude in robes relying purely on magic? Probably has it.

    2: 60 foot range, as others have said. As long as you're 65 feet away, they can't do a thing, and they can't counterspell something like spiritual weapon once it's already out, they'd have to use dispel magic (which they might have, but that's an action which they aren't using to fireball you, so it's a win).

    3: Costs a reaction. If they counterspell, they can't use shield or absorb elements that turn. On the flip side, if they use shield or absorb elements, they can't counterspell. So even if you get counterspelled, let your team know it's a good time to strike, and if you see them shield, cast without fear. Additionally, if you used a bonus action spell, you can still use a cantrip.

    4: Requires sight. If they don't see the spell being cast, they cannot stop it. If you're around a corner, or if you're within a fog cloud/darkness bubble, you're safe to cast.

    5: It can be counterspelled, even on your own turn. One important use of counterspell is to use it to counter any counterspells being aimed at your own spells. For example, A casts fireball, B casts counterspell, A uses counterspell and prevents B's counterspell, so the fireball goes through. What that means for you is if you have someone on your team threatening an enemy caster with a counterspell, they may be forced to counterspell on their own turn to save their own spells, meaning they won't be able to react to anything else.
    Last edited by Frozenstep; 2019-09-18 at 10:06 AM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Things to know about counterspell

    1: It's only really available to arcane casters. So against divine casters (cleric/paladin), or nature casters (druid/ranger), you won't need to worry about it. But a dude in robes relying purely on magic? Probably has it.

    2: 60 foot range, as others have said. As long as you're 65 feet away, they can't do a thing, and they can't counterspell something like spiritual weapon once it's already out, they'd have to use dispel magic (which they might have, but that's an action which they aren't using to fireball you, so it's a win).

    3: Costs a reaction. If they counterspell, they can't use shield or absorb elements that turn. On the flip side, if they use shield or absorb elements, they can't counterspell. So even if you get counterspelled, let your team know it's a good time to strike, and if you see them shield, cast without fear. Additionally, if you used a bonus action spell, you can still use a cantrip.

    4: Requires sight. If they don't see the spell being cast, they cannot stop it. If you're around a corner, or if you're within a fog cloud/darkness bubble, you're safe to cast.

    5: It can be counterspelled, even on your own turn. One important use of counterspell is to use it to counter any counterspells being aimed at your own spells. For example, A casts fireball, B casts counterspell, A uses counterspell and prevents B's counterspell, so the fireball goes through. What that means for you is if you have someone on your team threatening an enemy caster with a counterspell, they may be forced to counterspell on their own turn to save their own spells, meaning they won't be able to react to anything else.
    While very sound advice, somehow I have a nagging feeling that they all wouldn't matter for OP's table, because the DM sounds like the kind who would homebrew custom-tooled monsters just to shut down casters. (LR, counterspell, evasion, REFLECTIVE CARAPACE, seriously WHAT).

    Of course this is all just speculation on my part.
    Last edited by NNescio; 2019-09-18 at 10:15 AM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    While very sound advice, somehow I have a nagging feeling that they all wouldn't matter for OP's table, because the DM sounds like the kind who would homebrew custom-tooled monsters just to shut down casters. (LR, counterspell, evasion, REFLECTIVE CARAPACE, seriously WHAT).

    Of course this is all just speculation on my part.
    Actually, that's exactly how I felt about that encounter. The dm is a roommate of mine and he had joked between sessions that I didn't know how to play a support character as such. He did it in jest, but I wonder if he thinks that a cleric is only a support character and nothing more. Granted, this was after I retired my half-orc barb/fighter because being a tank, even with bear totem resistance, was very stressful for me to play and swapped to my current sor-lock character. (I made a thread on this a few months ago).
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    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Yeah, it might be high-time to have a chat with the DM.

    If you're having fun, then good, but it does sound like they're being a little too hard on you and your party.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Heightened metamagic vs. monsters' 'Choose to succeed on a saving throw'

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Yeah, it might be high-time to have a chat with the DM.

    If you're having fun, then good, but it does sound like they're being a little too hard on you and your party.
    Sadly, everyone else seems okay with the dm's play-style and only I have an issue with how he does things. I wish I had different groups to play with. :(
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