The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Laserlight's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlush View Post
    Just noticed that everyone ignored this.
    Because Tempest doesn't naturally come with BB, and it's probably not worth a feat to get it. If you get a free racial cantrip, then yeah, BB is probably the default...but it's not Gold. You could reasonably take Minor Illusion or Light or a couple others instead.
    Junior, half orc paladin of the Order of St Dale the Intimidator: "Ah cain't abide no murderin' scoundrel."

    Tactical Precepts: 1) Cause chaos, then exploit it; 2) No plan survives contact with...(sigh)...my subordinates.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlush View Post
    Just noticed that everyone ignored this.
    Yep it was my mistake and totally ruins the build, because ... I apparently forgot how the game worked? :D

    The closest you can really get is by using a lightning cantrip to knockback OR some kind of mobility bonus action to move away and using BB on the reaction if they come close, potentially preventing them from reaching 5ft, but... yeah in hindsight... I'd have to rethink the "knockback focus" design a bit.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlush View Post
    Just noticed that everyone ignored this.
    I think because most everyone already knew it, and weren't factoring a knockback Booming Blade in their mental equations.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    All in all for the cantrips:
    Guidance
    Sacred "lightning"
    Thaumaturgy

    Seems like a good array. Or should I take spare the dying or another cantrip?

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    All in all for the cantrips:
    Guidance
    Sacred "lightning"
    Thaumaturgy

    Seems like a good array. Or should I take spare the dying or another cantrip?
    So hold on... Will the Sacred "Lightning" work with the 6th level pushback feature?

    I'd say ask the DM, because that revives the build!

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Petrocorus's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Does anyone know a race (beside high elf) that could gives access to Lightning Lure or Shocking Grasp?
    ------- 5E MM Resistances, Immunities, Vulnerabilities, and Damage. - - Petrocorus' Paladin Builds List. - - 3.5 Reference Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
    Quote Originally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
    Common sense is for commoners, not for [ PC ].

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Underhand View Post
    So hold on... Will the Sacred "Lightning" work with the 6th level pushback feature?

    I'd say ask the DM, because that revives the build!
    I asked and I quote: "Is there any balancement problem or the like if I get a sacred lightning instead of a sacred flame? It would change only the damage type."

    And he replyed: "Not at all, you lose access to sacred flame, but Thor provides you sacred lightning"

    So it should work


    Also I can decide to use destructive wrath after the enemy ST. That's something right?
    Last edited by Trandir; 2019-09-20 at 06:25 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Laserlight View Post
    Get Warcaster at the first possible opportunity. Losing concentration sucks. At low levels, IIRC warcaster is better for you than Resilient CON.
    I always find this an interesting view. Sure in the abstract Warcaster means you will make more Concentration saves. However at levels 5-8 this is about 1 in 20 more saves than Res (Con)?

    Taking up to 20 damage is DC 10.
    Level 5 Con 16 + Warcaster = 91% change of passing
    Level 5 Con 16 + Proficiency = 85% chance of passing

    If you used point buy to take 17 Con then Resistance makes that 18
    Level 5 Con 17 + Warcaster = 91% change of passing
    Level 5 Con 18 + Proficiency = 90% chance of passing

    If you are getting Warcaster as Varient Human at Level 1 or have an average 10 Con then Warcaster may be the better choice than Resistance. I just do not think it should get the blanket recommendation as being the better choice. Whereas Proficiency in Con saves helps with all those other things such as Poison, cold, ghouls touch.

    Ghouls Touch is DC 10
    Level 5 Con 16 + Warcaster = 70% change of passing
    Level 5 Con 16 + Proficiency = 85% chance of passing

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    I always find this an interesting view. Sure in the abstract Warcaster means you will make more Concentration saves. However at levels 5-8 this is about 1 in 20 more saves than Res (Con)?

    Taking up to 20 damage is DC 10.
    Level 5 Con 16 + Warcaster = 91% change of passing
    Level 5 Con 16 + Proficiency = 85% chance of passing

    If you used point buy to take 17 Con then Resistance makes that 18
    Level 5 Con 17 + Warcaster = 91% change of passing
    Level 5 Con 18 + Proficiency = 90% chance of passing

    If you are getting Warcaster as Varient Human at Level 1 or have an average 10 Con then Warcaster may be the better choice than Resistance. I just do not think it should get the blanket recommendation as being the better choice. Whereas Proficiency in Con saves helps with all those other things such as Poison, cold, ghouls touch.

    Ghouls Touch is DC 10
    Level 5 Con 16 + Warcaster = 70% change of passing
    Level 5 Con 16 + Proficiency = 85% chance of passing
    That is true, war caster is slightly better at keeping concentration at low levels, and resilient (Con) offers some other benefits.

    Warcaster:
    No sematic component required, this DM will allow the shield with an holy symbol to do this so it loses appeal;
    Spells as OAs, this is interesting but probably not too good without some other feat to broad the OAs triggers;
    Advantage on ST for maintaining concentration, this feat's main attraction;

    Resilient (Con):
    +1 to Con, always good;
    Proficency on Con ST, pretty darn good (dwarves get advantage on ST against poison so with this you can do the drunken dwarf without passing out);


    Probably resilient is more usefull overall. But I'll get both soon or later.

    Also about the stats as you sayed:
    Spoiler
    Show

    With point buy and hill dwarf I was considering this:
    Str 14
    Dex 10
    Con 14 (+2 racial)
    Int 10
    Wis 15 (+1 racial)
    Cha 8

    But I could dump Dex, or lower Str, to get 1 more point of Con and at lv 4 get it to 18 with resilient and leverage the difference with warcaster to basically nothing (~3%) for maintaining con but I'd get the hp bonus and better Con ST overall.

    Should I do this?

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Warcaster and Res(Con) are both so good you can't go wrong with either. I've always let my stats determine the order. Starting odd Con means taking Res(Con) first while starting even Con means taking Warcaster first.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    Warcaster and Res(Con) are both so good you can't go wrong with either. I've always let my stats determine the order. Starting odd Con means taking Res(Con) first while starting even Con means taking Warcaster first.
    I am considering it.

    But how to do it? Two 15 and a 14 are quite expensive with the point buy. I could just reduce Str to 12 to keep Int and Dex at 10 or dump either of them to 8 and keep the 14 Str

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    I have no issue with 8 Int and 8 Cha personally

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    But I could dump Dex, or lower Str, to get 1 more point of Con and at lv 4 get it to 18 with resilient and leverage the difference with warcaster to basically nothing (~3%) for maintaining con but I'd get the hp bonus and better Con ST overall.
    Should I do this?
    Personally I would drop Str since your Dwarf ability lets you wear Heavy Armour without being slowed. It depends on how much you think you will actually make weapon attacks?

    Going with 13 /10 / 17 / 10 / 16 / 8
    ASI: Pushing Wiz to 20 and Res (Con) has you covered to twelfth level. Game may end there but if you no push on to 16th you can take another half feat for Strength such as squat nimbleness. 13 Str is enough to Multi-class should you want a level of Fighter.

    For my Cleric I went with Charisma so I can take a level of Sorcerer.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Well everyone the DM has a houserule: bonus feat at lv 1 for everyone.

    This is good right?

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Free level 1 feat? I'd be tempted to start Res(Con) then so you could start with 18 Con, but Warcaster is still a strong choice too

    I don't want to further confuse you, but Heavy Armor Master is also a great starting feat and gives +1 Str.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Well everyone the DM has a houserule: bonus feat at lv 1 for everyone.
    This is good right?
    Very good; I got the same in one of my games and started with 18 Con.


    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    Free level 1 feat? I'd be tempted to start Res(Con) then so you could start with 18 Con, but Warcaster is still a strong choice too. I don't want to further confuse you, but Heavy Armor Master is also a great starting feat and gives +1 Str.
    HAM and Res (Con) were the two I was debating between and it was a close call. Not sure which will work out best but decided starting with Resistance means I can max Wiz by level 8.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    Free level 1 feat? I'd be tempted to start Res(Con) then so you could start with 18 Con, but Warcaster is still a strong choice too

    I don't want to further confuse you, but Heavy Armor Master is also a great starting feat and gives +1 Str.
    The % to pass a con ST with DC 10 to maintain concentration at lv 2 is:
    85 with resilient
    91.5 with war caster

    So war caster is slightly better at that.

    But this DM allows the shield symbol to cast any spell with S components, and the OAs feature is rather minor.

    Resilient provides a lot more survivability.

    Also at lv 2 and I probably won't need to max concentration success rate.

    So the plan for now is:
    lv 1 resilient (Con)
    lv 4 war caster
    lv 8-12 max Wis
    lv 16 max Con
    lv 19 no idea

    Seems good

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Petrocorus's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Well everyone the DM has a houserule: bonus feat at lv 1 for everyone.

    This is good right?
    We use it in my gaming group and it doesn't imbalance the things that much. It allows more diversity in character type, notably for martials.

    I'm a bit wary about Vuman having two feat total at level 1, though. It's not game-breaking but allows some specific combinations that can be impressive. Like PAM + Sentinel at level 1.
    ------- 5E MM Resistances, Immunities, Vulnerabilities, and Damage. - - Petrocorus' Paladin Builds List. - - 3.5 Reference Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
    Quote Originally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
    Common sense is for commoners, not for [ PC ].

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Out of the 4 players 3 choose monstrous races so I decided to join the train and picked envoy warforged instead of hill dwarf.

    All in all that's not a bad trade:

    Both gets the same stat modifier (Dwarf: Con +2, Wis +1 and Warforged: Con +1 +1, Wis +1), two languages, a tool proficiency (the dwarf choce is more limited) and advantage and resistance vs poison.

    Warforged gets: 5 more feet of movement, immunity to desease and magical sleep, plus no need for sleep, food, water or air. When long resting still fully aware so less likely to get ambushed, "free plate armor" at lv 1 that gets better with levels, one bonus skill, tool and one bonus language, and the integrated tool (fun little feature).

    Dwarf gets: darkvision, stonecunning, 1 bonus Hp per level, not slowed by armor and gets armor.


    All in all the warforged is better but I'll have to take as cantrips light, sacred "lightning" and thaumaturgy to make up for darkvision. The lost of the armor is a little bit sad but I can still wear robes.


    Also now the party looks like this:
    -Mountain dwarf barbarian
    -Lizardfolk circle of the moon druid
    -Goblin rogue
    -Half-orc wizard
    -Envoy warforged tempest cleric

    This is going to be a fun game right?

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    This is going to be a fun game right?
    Sounds that way but only one Dwarf left in the party he will feel lonely.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    micahaphone's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to build a tempest cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyracian View Post
    Sounds that way but only one Dwarf left in the party he will feel lonely.
    Be sure to reach out and partake in dwarven customs to make him feel at home. "Come, now we drink alcohol and insult each other! I'll have a nip of oil. your mother was bad! There, I feel more bonded already "

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