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    Default Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    So, basically my question is simple.

    I had thought at first that the Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer already had resistance to their specific element all the time built into it, but after reading over the class again due to a character concept I have, I found that this isn't the case.

    Indeed, the Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer DOES have resistance to their element, but ONLY when they cast a spell of that element AND spend 1 Sorcery point, and then they have resistance for a while to that specific element.

    This, to me, is a bit...it feels bad. Thematically speaking anyways. Perhaps you disagree with me, and that's fine.

    It's just that having the dragon blood in you, I feel, should grant you resistance to your specific element from the get-go.

    So, my question is this.

    How broken would it be to allow Draconic Sorcerer's to have resistance permanently to their chosen Dragon Blood Element as part of their Draconic Resilience at level 1?

    A counterpoint I'm sure some will make is that I, or anyone, could simply make them a Dragonborn who already has resistance to an element, and if you were to make the Sorcerer have resistance permanently like them it would be stepping on some toes, and then you could have a Dragonborn who is resistant to 2 elements all the time. Which, me personally, I don't think is that bad anyways.

    But, choosing the same element for Dragonborn and the Sorcerer origin just to have resistance is a bit bleh and makes the 6th level granting of resistance useless.

    One reason I'm not going Dragonborn for my characters race.

    So, yeah. Do you think it would be too broken or no? I ask because I want to bring it in front of my DM as an option, but I don't want to bring anything broken or too strong to them and them thinking I'm trying to break the system.

    I'd appreciate your feedback, thanks.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    It will have a small impact.

    I don't see a problem with a static resistance. If you had the ability to change it it will be a different story but a static resistance ia very easy to go around.

    If your element is fire the enemies will see you casting a lot of fire spells and will think "A fire guy, use cold/water spells on him, if you don't have just use not fire, there is no reason to give him more fire power"

    And if you were a secret water guy they will see that the cold spells had little effect and use a different kind of element.

    If it is known that the offspring of dragons handle the dragon element without problem then most of enemies will have more then one type of damage.
    Last edited by BloodSnake'sCha; 2019-09-18 at 02:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sCha View Post
    It will have a small impact.

    I don't see a problem with a static resistance. If you had the ability to change it it will be a different story but a static resistance ia very easy to go around.

    If your element is fire the enemies will see you casting a lot of fire spells and will think "A fire guy, use cold/water spells on him, if you don't have just use not fire, there is no reason to give him more fire power"
    Exactly my thoughts. I didn't think it would have that huge of an impact to give a static resistance to the Draconic Sorcerer based on their chosen element, but wanted to run it by people who may be more experienced in changing and modifying things in the game.

    I've only recently begun playing 5e maybe a little under a year now, and so still trying to get the hang of how things work and interact.

    So far I'm enjoying it, but modifying and changing things, or even creating some things makes me wary because I don't want to overpower things.

    Not like there isn't a way to get around the static resistance anyways. They still take damage normally from weapons that do piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing.
    Last edited by Nikushimi; 2019-09-18 at 02:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikushimi View Post
    So, my question is this.

    How broken would it be to allow Draconic Sorcerer's to have resistance permanently to their chosen Dragon Blood Element as part of their Draconic Resilience at level 1?
    For single-classed sorcs, no.

    For multi-classed builds (if multiclassing is on the table), YES.
    Last edited by NNescio; 2019-09-18 at 02:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikushimi View Post
    Exactly my thoughts. I didn't think it would have that huge of an impact to give a static resistance to the Draconic Sorcerer based on their chosen element, but wanted to run it by people who may be more experienced in changing and modifying things in the game.

    I've only recently begun playing 5e maybe a little under a year now, and so still trying to get the hang of how things work and interact.

    So far I'm enjoying it, but modifying and changing things, or even creating some things makes me wary because I don't want to overpower things.

    Not like there isn't a way to get around the static resistance anyways. They still take damage normally from weapons that do piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing.
    You can always be a tifling and have the resistance, and maybe have 3 resistance to a common damage types with a single half feat.

    An ancient paladin get resistance to all spell damage.

    A fiend lock get a resistance he chan change.

    They are in existence so many more powerful options to take.

    You also have the Youn-Ti that have immunity to poison.

    Just build a good argument for why you think the draconic Sorcerer should have resistance. Worse case your DM says no and you can refluff a tifling and play a fire element dragon or Youn-Ti and play a Poison draconic Sorcerer (poison is one of the worse damage types, not recommend).

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    For single-classed sorcs, no.

    For multi-classed builds (if multiclassing is on the table), YES.
    Care to explain? How would multiclassing break giving Draconic Sorcerer's static resistance to 1 Element?

    I can't see how multiclassing would break it. Though, for my character concept I don't see myself multiclassing at all. So that's no issue.

    But, for the sake of understanding how it would break the game if they multiclass I'd like to know because I plan on possibly implementing this for Sorcerer's in a game I plan on DM'ing once I get the world and story built for it.

    So if you could elaborate, I'd appreciate it. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sCha View Post
    You can always be a tifling and have the resistance, and maybe have 3 resistance to a common damage types with a single half feat.

    An ancient paladin get resistance to all spell damage.

    A fiend lock get a resistance he chan change.

    They are in existence so many more powerful options to take.

    You also have the Youn-Ti that have immunity to poison.

    Just build a good argument for why you think the draconic Sorcerer should have resistance. Worse case your DM says no and you can refluff a tifling and play a fire element dragon or Youn-Ti and play a Poison draconic Sorcerer (poison is one of the worse damage types, not recommend).
    I missed this reply, but I guess it lends the reasons why multiclassing might make it broken.

    One of my DM's is pretty forgiving as long as it isn't world shattering broken. The other one is pretty much by the RAW. So he'd be a bit harder in convincing.

    My argument is simple. Why would your blood line require you to cast a spell of that element to gain the resistance?

    He might be persuaded in just allowing me to use a Sorcery point without having to cast a spell.

    Since I have two 5e DM's they each have their own views on things.

    But I appreciate the feedback! Hope to hear more!
    Last edited by Nikushimi; 2019-09-18 at 02:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    I think the problem with make it permanent in multiclassing is that it makes a dip into the sorcerer way more appealing. Especially on a palladin or warlock base taking some levels in sorcerer has become even more appealing. But for a home game I don't it wouldn't be strange for that not be allowed.

    Making it a good sorcery point but not the spell is something I as a DM wouldn't be opposed against. Especially since, if you are fighting something that deals fire damage, the change that the monster has fire resistance itself is pretty high. Meaning that you can only benefit from your resistance if you choose to deal non-optimal damage..

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikushimi View Post
    Care to explain? How would multiclassing break giving Draconic Sorcerer's static resistance to 1 Element?

    I can't see how multiclassing would break it. Though, for my character concept I don't see myself multiclassing at all. So that's no issue.

    But, for the sake of understanding how it would break the game if they multiclass I'd like to know because I plan on possibly implementing this for Sorcerer's in a game I plan on DM'ing once I get the world and story built for it.

    So if you could elaborate, I'd appreciate it. :D



    I missed this reply, but I guess it lends the reasons why multiclassing might make it broken.

    One of my DM's is pretty forgiving as long as it isn't world shattering broken. The other one is pretty much by the RAW. So he'd be a bit harder in convincing.

    My argument is simple. Why would your blood line require you to cast a spell of that element to gain the resistance?

    He might be persuaded in just allowing me to use a Sorcery point without having to cast a spell.

    Since I have two 5e DM's they each have their own views on things.

    But I appreciate the feedback! Hope to hear more!
    The thing is that you don't need to use a spell slot, it says a spell, not a spell of 1 level or higher (like some other abilities do).

    Cantrips are spells.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sCha View Post
    The thing is that you don't need to use a spell slot, it says a spell, not a spell of 1 level or higher (like some other abilities do).

    Cantrips are spells.
    True, but still, the requirement to cast a spell just to then have the option of gaining resistance to the one element that you have is weird to me, but I appreciate the insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mork View Post
    I think the problem with make it permanent in multiclassing is that it makes a dip into the sorcerer way more appealing. Especially on a palladin or warlock base taking some levels in sorcerer has become even more appealing. But for a home game I don't it wouldn't be strange for that not be allowed.

    Making it a good sorcery point but not the spell is something I as a DM wouldn't be opposed against. Especially since, if you are fighting something that deals fire damage, the change that the monster has fire resistance itself is pretty high. Meaning that you can only benefit from your resistance if you choose to deal non-optimal damage..
    I can see how it would look lucrative to some to take a dip into it for the one elemental resistance. Though, from a DM and even Player perspective, their choice to multiclass into a Sorcerer, even for 1 level, would make me question why they are multiclassing. Especially into a sorcerer origin that is granted either by a Dragon themselves or by having the Blood of Dragons in you. They'd have to give me a reason they can multiclass into it in the first place and how it makes sense for their characters.

    That's kind of how I have played Multiclassing as well.

    For example, my current character is a Half-Elf Eldritch Knight/Warlock. Without going into much detail, he started out as a fighter, his magic from his mother (her being an Elf, and Elves being magical in our world) eventually blossomed. So he chose the path of the Eldritch Knight. Later he found a book which led him through a series of events that had him before a Fey entity.

    So, for me, multiclassing is about the path your character takes and why. They'd have to have a reason.

    But I do appreciate all the feedback. I like to get a feel for things and to learn about the game. So much appreciated!

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    For single-classed sorcs, no.

    For multi-classed builds (if multiclassing is on the table), YES.
    Well, that's not how classes work...

    Either you allow it at Level 1 of the class or not, you don't really get to choose features for a class only if it's part of a multiclass. (After rereading this again I don't think that's what you meant, but I'm going to leave this here as part of my original thought anyway). My guess is that NNescio thinks people will break the game by dipping into sorcerer for the resistance. Am I right?

    Either way, my opinion is that you don't break too much by giving draconic sorcerers one resistance. Sorcerer is relatively weak for a full spellcaster. It could frankly use the help.
    Last edited by Safety Sword; 2019-09-18 at 06:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Sword View Post
    Well, that's not how classes work...

    Either you allow it at Level 1 of the class or not, you don't really get to choose features for a class only if it's part of a multiclass. (After rereading this again I don't think that's what you meant, but I'm going to leave this here as part of my original thought anyway). My guess is that NNescio thinks people will break the game by dipping into sorcerer for the resistance. Am I right?

    Either way, my opinion is that you don't break too much by giving draconic sorcerers one resistance. Sorcerer is relatively weak for a full spellcaster. It could frankly use the help.
    I appreciate the input!

    I'm unsure if either of my DM's would be up for the change since they are both relatively new to the system themselves, but I most likely will be using the change for my own game when I get around to DM'ing it.

    If anyone else has any input, I'd appreciate it! Otherwise, thank you everyone who gave their opinions on it!

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Yeah, it won't break anything. Sorcerers don't really need sruvivability buffs, but halving damage against one specific element ain't gonna make them OP or anything.
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Wait, you have to cast a spell before you can spend the sorcery point? I could have sworn it was two distinct abilities that you get at the same level. Probably doesn’t help that my Sorc is a Dragonborn with the same heritage so I just skimmed over that part. Honestly that seems kind of weak then, but I guess the CHA to damage is the main feature for the level anyway.
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darc_Vader View Post
    Wait, you have to cast a spell before you can spend the sorcery point? I could have sworn it was two distinct abilities that you get at the same level. Probably doesn’t help that my Sorc is a Dragonborn with the same heritage so I just skimmed over that part. Honestly that seems kind of weak then, but I guess the CHA to damage is the main feature for the level anyway.
    Yeah, you have to cast a spell that deals damage of the same type that your bloodline is from in order to have the option to use the sorcery point to become resistant to that same damage for 1 hour.

    It reads:

    ELEMENTAL AFFINITY
    Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals
    damage of the type associated with your draconic
    ancestry, add your Charisma modifier to that damage.
    At the same time, you can spend 1 sorcery point to gain
    resistance to that damage type for 1 hour.


    The fact that it says "At the same time" is what tells us that it has to be when you cast the spell with the same type of damage your bloodline is.

    Which is why I find it weird and clunky, and why I don't see why they don't have resistance already. Which led me to the question of if it would be broken to just GIVE them the resistance to the ONE element.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    I'm not going to judge you here. Go ahead and do what you will if you're running the game.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    absolutely no problem. It's too high level for the dipping problem to matter.

    I wouldn't do it, because there are a finite number of houserules you can force on your players before they get confused, and this doesn't fix anything I don't like about the game.
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    It wouldn't break anything from a balance perspective.
    Several races got a resistance and it doesn't come into play that often. It is campaign dependant.

    Though, for avoiding MC shenanigans, i would keep it a part of the level 6 feature.
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    It wouldn't break anything from a balance perspective.
    Several races got a resistance and it doesn't come into play that often. It is campaign dependant.

    Though, for avoiding MC shenanigans, i would keep it a part of the level 6 feature.
    For real, I see no reason to multiclass for a static resistance when Sorcerer get absorb elements which is better.

    It is close to a ribbon feature.
    Last edited by BloodSnake'sCha; 2019-09-19 at 10:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSnake'sCha View Post
    For real, I see no reason to multiclass for a static resistance when Sorcerer get absorb elements which is better.

    It is close to a ribbon feature.
    It isn't a ribbon feature for a full-classed sorcerer. Absorb Elements is a spell known, and spells known are a sorcerer's most precious resource. The best thing about the draconic sorc is how it gives you mage armor, absorb element, and flight (eventually) as spells for free. A sorcerer without a subclass has 15 spells known by level 20, the draconic sorcerer effectively has 18-19. That's actually a reasonably big deal.
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    absolutely no problem. It's too high level for the dipping problem to matter.

    I wouldn't do it, because there are a finite number of houserules you can force on your players before they get confused, and this doesn't fix anything I don't like about the game.
    How would they get confused if you were to change it to give static resistance? Perhaps if they read the entry for sorcerer and challenged the ruling of "Why do you have static resistance?" But that confusion can be cleared up easily, so I'm unsure how confused they would get.

    Appreciate the input though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    It wouldn't break anything from a balance perspective.
    Several races got a resistance and it doesn't come into play that often. It is campaign dependant.

    Though, for avoiding MC shenanigans, i would keep it a part of the level 6 feature.
    MC Shenanigans? If I interpret what you mean correctly, I don't see how having one static resistance would give someone MC shenanigans. I'm a bit confused in what you mean there.

    Keeping it as part of the level 6 feature is an option, but the requirements for it are just strange in my opinion, and I feel should be static resistance. By level 6 I'd say your Dragon Blood has become stronger inside you, granting it to you.

    I appreciate the input!

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    It isn't a ribbon feature for a full-classed sorcerer. Absorb Elements is a spell known, and spells known are a sorcerer's most precious resource. The best thing about the draconic sorc is how it gives you mage armor, absorb element, and flight (eventually) as spells for free. A sorcerer without a subclass has 15 spells known by level 20, the draconic sorcerer effectively has 18-19. That's actually a reasonably big deal.
    I'm a bit confused where they get Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, and Flight spells for free.

    Though I think you mean the abilities you get. Mage Armor equivalent from Draconic Resilience cause it grants the same AC bonus. Absorb Elements....I don't see it in any of the abilities since Absorb Elements allows you, as a reaction, to half the damage from a certain element and then deal back a d6 in the same damage on the next melee attack that hits on your next turn. Something that Elemental Affinity does NOT do. Elemental Affinity requires you to cast a spell with your damage type, and spend a sorcery point to become resistant to that ONE element. It can't be done with multiple elements. Just the one that your damage type is. So I'm confused as to where you get Absorb Elements from.

    Flight is easy, cause wings at later level. Still, all these are abilities. Not spells.

    But yeah, Sorcerer's don't actually get that many spells comparatively.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikushimi View Post
    How would they get confused if you were to change it to give static resistance? Perhaps if they read the entry for sorcerer and challenged the ruling of "Why do you have static resistance?" But that confusion can be cleared up easily, so I'm unsure how confused they would get.
    Its not that they'll be confused, its that they'll forget.

    "Oh man, I spend 1 sorcery point to gain resistance!"
    "Dude, we houseruled that. You always have resistance"
    "Oh yeah... Sorry, keep forgetting."

    In general players are always reminding themselves of the rules, and frequently I find that they'll "remind" themselves of the base rules without remembering all those house rules you cooked up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikushimi View Post
    I'm a bit confused where they get Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, and Flight spells for free.

    Though I think you mean the abilities you get. Mage Armor equivalent from Draconic Resilience cause it grants the same AC bonus. Absorb Elements....I don't see it in any of the abilities since Absorb Elements allows you, as a reaction, to half the damage from a certain element and then deal back a d6 in the same damage on the next melee attack that hits on your next turn. Something that Elemental Affinity does NOT do. Elemental Affinity requires you to cast a spell with your damage type, and spend a sorcery point to become resistant to that ONE element. It can't be done with multiple elements. Just the one that your damage type is. So I'm confused as to where you get Absorb Elements from.

    Flight is easy, cause wings at later level. Still, all these are abilities. Not spells.

    But yeah, Sorcerer's don't actually get that many spells comparatively.
    Those abilities cover the same niches as the spells, while not being exactly comparable, meaning that you can forgo those spells and spend your known spells on other things. Since Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, and Fly are conventionally considered to be "must-haves" you effectively get extra spells known. In the case of fly, you'll probably still want it for several levels leading up to level 14 but you can trade it out once you get there.
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Its not that they'll be confused, its that they'll forget.

    "Oh man, I spend 1 sorcery point to gain resistance!"
    "Dude, we houseruled that. You always have resistance"
    "Oh yeah... Sorry, keep forgetting."

    In general players are always reminding themselves of the rules, and frequently I find that they'll "remind" themselves of the base rules without remembering all those house rules you cooked up.
    I suppose, but even with regular rules they tend to forget and look them up. For the most part our players tend to remember the rules placed before them.

    Though, I'd think it go "Oh man, I cast this spell AND then use 1 sorcery point to gain resistance!" cause they HAVE to cast a spell that causes the same type of damage that they gain resistance to before they can spend the point...which is just weird. EDIT: At least by RAW you have to cast a spell before spending it.

    But I get your point.


    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Those abilities cover the same niches as the spells, while not being exactly comparable, meaning that you can forgo those spells and spend your known spells on other things. Since Mage Armor, Absorb Elements, and Fly are conventionally considered to be "must-haves" you effectively get extra spells known. In the case of fly, you'll probably still want it for several levels leading up to level 14 but you can trade it out once you get there.
    Fair, and yeah. For Fly you might want it to help others in your party since they may not be able to fly.
    Last edited by Nikushimi; 2019-09-19 at 01:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikushimi View Post
    MC Shenanigans? If I interpret what you mean correctly, I don't see how having one static resistance would give someone MC shenanigans. I'm a bit confused in what you mean there.

    Keeping it as part of the level 6 feature is an option, but the requirements for it are just strange in my opinion, and I feel should be static resistance. By level 6 I'd say your Dragon Blood has become stronger inside you, granting it to you.

    I appreciate the input!
    Honestly, i said this because some people seemed to be worried about the possibility to use this to build a character with many resistances. I may have misread it since i'm doing this while at work.

    I would still let this on level 6, just because it's already there and not to make the level 1 too loaded.
    But from a pure balance perspective, that would really not be a problem to put it at level 1.
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  24. - Top - End - #24
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikushimi View Post
    Fair, and yeah. For Fly you might want it to help others in your party since they may not be able to fly.
    Sure. But the abilities don't cover all the holes. They just move fly and absorb elements from "must-have" to "optional." You might take them, but you don't have to.
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    Default Re: Giving Draconic Sorcerer Permanent Resistance, is it broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    Honestly, i said this because some people seemed to be worried about the possibility to use this to build a character with many resistances. I may have misread it since i'm doing this while at work.

    I would still let this on level 6, just because it's already there and not to make the level 1 too loaded.
    But from a pure balance perspective, that would really not be a problem to put it at level 1.
    No worries!

    Yeah, seems some people are worried about people having too many resistances, but I don't think having one element resistance is that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Sure. But the abilities don't cover all the holes. They just move fly and absorb elements from "must-have" to "optional." You might take them, but you don't have to.
    I wouldn't say they are must-haves myself considering, as a Sorcerer, even a Draconic Sorcerer, you're not the best Frontline and probably shouldn't be in melee range for Absorb Elements to matter much aside from granting immediate resistance.

    Fly I don't think is a must-have either, as it's useful for certain cases, but as for long distance travel Fly isn't that useful since Fly only lasts for 10minutes, and Levitate can be used for most things like crossing gaps or going up a wall unless I'm misreading the use of Levitate. Though, you can't target multiple people with levitate, so that makes it slightly better at higher spell slots.

    Still don't think they are must-haves though, but that's just me.

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