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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Strength Fighter/Rogue MC

    Hi,

    I was considering a str based rogue the other day and tried to search for ideas on the internets and nothing was really matching up with what I had in mind.

    So, I thought I would put it out here for some feedback.

    17, 14, 14, 8, 12, 10
    Half-Orc or Goliath fighter (later multiclass into rogue up to 5)

    Feats: +2 strength, heavy armor master, shield master, tough, maybe sentinel (just a place to start, order unsure).

    Probably take defense fighting style (that way he can choose either ultimate defense with shield or possibly two short swords for 21 or 19 ac, respectively).

    Hopefully get mithral full plate for stealth (if nice DM is nice :)). If not, meh. Still would be rocking 20 ac and be able to get sneak attack on most of the time with swashbuckler/shield master/and effective combat placement movement/maybe some team buffs.

    Battle master: riposte, goading, and feinting to start.
    Or, maybe samurai...

    Expertise: athletics and (stealth/theives'tools/perception... Depending on DM and how game goes)

    _________________________________________________

    So what do you think? How does this compare to other optimized (for combat) builds?
    Last edited by RingoBongo; 2019-09-20 at 09:50 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    You could go the battlemaster/swashbuckler route to riposte an enemy for an extra potential sneak attack. Forego shield master if you do this, instead shoot for 7+ levels of rogue.

    Another route would be (if your DM let's you shove first with shield master) 17/13/14/10/12/10 as a samurai/whatever. Go for HAM, shield master, resilient (dexterity). You now have proficiency in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis (Samurai) saves. Take expertise in athletics.
    You can now make the most of shield master: bonus action shove with athletics expertise, 2+Prof Dex saves to assist with the reaction part.
    Last edited by CheddarChampion; 2019-09-19 at 11:26 AM.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by RingoBongo View Post
    Hi,

    I was considering a str based rogue the other day and tried to search for ideas on the internets and nothing was really matching up with what I had in mind.

    So, I thought I would put it out here for some feedback.

    17, 14, 14, 8, 12, 10
    Half-Orc or Goliath fighter (later multiclass into rogue up to 5)

    Feats: +2 strength, heavy armor master, shield master, tough, maybe sentinel (just a place to start, order unsure).

    Probably take defense fighting style (that way he can choose either ultimate defense with shield or possibly two short swords for 21 or 19 ac, respectively).

    Hopefully get mithral full plate for stealth (if nice DM is nice :)). If not, meh. Still would be rocking 20 ac and be able to get sneak attack on most of the time with swashbuckler/shield master/and effective combat placement movement/maybe some team buffs.

    Battle master: riposte, goading, and feinting to start.
    Or, maybe samurai...

    Expertise: athletics and (stealth/theives'tools/perception... Depending on DM and how game goes)

    _________________________________________________

    So what do you think? How does this compare to other optimized (for combat) builds?
    I havenít found much about Strength Rogues either, but thereís so much fun stuff you can do with them.

    I like your HAM build... it makes Uncanny Dodge even better, and it also works against multiple attacks per round, unlike Uncanny Dodge. People discount HAM as being weak at higher levels, but a great many monsters have a claw/claw/bite routine or some other multiattack action which means HAM can potentially mitigate 9 or more DPR against you. Thatís far from weak.

    With your odd Str, HAM at F4 is a no-brainer. Sentinel or Shield Master at Rogue 4, then the other. Thereís no rush to max Str on these guys IMO.. 18 is pretty dang good.

    With regard to stealth in plate, Boots of Elvenkind are Uncommon and would negate the disadvantage from regular plate until you can find a mithril suit. And with a 14 Dex and Expertise, youíll have a decent chance at sneaking even with Disadvantage.

    At some point, youíll have to decide whether or not you want to get a 3rd Attack and go for Fighter 11.

    For the most part, my feeling is no. Getting an extra d6 on your Sneak Attack every other level is decent scaling, so going past Fighter 7 (for the archetype feature) or 8 (for the Feat) doesnít make much sense to me. Rogue gets a bonus feat at 10 Reliable Talent at 11 and another Feat at 12. Not to mention your sneak attacks doing +6d6. Thatís like adding a whole 1e Fireball spell, which just makes me giggle.

    Iím rambling, sorry...

    @CheddarChampion, I like the Save Master build youíve got going. I always think Dex when it comes to Samurogues because of Inquisitives and Archery, but youíve got me thinking... thanks!

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    I've got a Barbarian Rogue that is amazing. The two classes work very well together. Though a barbarian fighting with a rapier...oh, well.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by darknite View Post
    Though a barbarian fighting with a rapier...oh, well.
    Fluff them as a gladiator that gets into a battle trance?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Great feedback all around!

    I think there's a few different viable routes with enough room for variance to suit your own flavor.

    Though there are some general must haves that the build concept revolves around:

    1. Start as a fighter for heavy armor proficiency
    2. Start with 17 strength (mountain dwarf, Half-Orc, or Earth genasi, or Goliath)
    3. Start with at least 13 Dex for mc into rogue
    4. Eventually take HAM and shield master
    5. Expertise in athletics (for shield master success)
    6. 3-7+ levels of swashbuckler rogue
    7. 5-7+ levels of BM or Samurai fighter
    ______________________________________________

    My personal favorite after reading this would probably have to be:

    Goliath samurai 7 or 8+ / swashbuckler rogue 9+



    - I decided to push further into rogue for sneak
    attack scaling and the panache ability, which
    coincidentally synergizes with samurai ability
    elegant courtier. Also, for this reason I went
    with 12 for both Wis and Cha.

    Starting ability scores: 17, 13, 14, 8, 12, 12

    Feats: HAM, shield master, sentinel, resilient (Dex), tough, +2 strength

    Skills:
    - athletics (from Goliath race)
    - perception and ???? (from fighter)
    - persuasion, stealth, and ??? (From rogue/ background)

    Expertise: athletics, stealth, persuasion, and ???

    Fighting style: defense or dueling (doesn't really matter)

    Damage reduction FTW:
    - Goliath racial feature (1/short rest) -1d12+con (any type)
    - HAM -3 per hit (non-magical piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing)
    - rogue features: lvl 5 evasion, and lvl 7 uncanny Dodge (situationally halving incoming damage)
    Last edited by RingoBongo; 2019-09-19 at 04:01 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by darknite View Post
    I've got a Barbarian Rogue that is amazing. The two classes work very well together. Though a barbarian fighting with a rapier...oh, well.
    Rogue makes such an excellent addition to the other pure martial classes. Even just 2 levels for Cunning Action is such a great force multiplier.

    I feel you on the rapier... I just can't do it. Scimitars and short swords all the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by RingoBongo View Post
    Cool stuff
    I think you've got it hammered out pretty well.

    As a thought... instead of Resilient Dex, take Resilient Wis BEFORE you get to Samurai 7. Then you can take proficiency in either Int or Cha saves.

    Between Shield Master and Evasion, you're going to be doing pretty well on your Dex saves, it doesn't affect your AC in heavy armor, and you can eventually use an ASI for +1/+1 in Dex/Wis for 14 in both if you want another point of Initiative. Or just leave Dex at 13 and take Observant.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crgaston View Post
    As a thought... instead of Resilient Dex, take Resilient Wis BEFORE you get to Samurai 7. Then you can take proficiency in either Int or Cha saves.

    Between Shield Master and Evasion, you're going to be doing pretty well on your Dex saves, it doesn't affect your AC in heavy armor, and you can eventually use an ASI for +1/+1 in Dex/Wis for 14 in both if you want another point of Initiative. Or just leave Dex at 13 and take Observant.
    Nifty little catch on that elegant courtier wisdom save proficiency stipulation! Nice. Would be a good way to snag int or Cha proficiency without having to waste a feat on it.

    Yeah... Perhaps rogue's evasion feature and shield master is enough as a sort of poor man's Dex save proficiency. Taking int or cha saves instead might be better. If so, which one int or Cha?

    Although, doing that does complicate feat choices and ASI even numbers...
    ___________________________________________

    New question: what would be a good level/feat progression sequence? 🤔
    Last edited by RingoBongo; 2019-09-18 at 10:52 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by RingoBongo View Post
    Nifty little catch on that elegant courtier wisdom save proficiency stipulation! Nice. Would be a good way to snag int or Cha proficiency without having to waste a feat on it.
    Wasting a feat on resilient(Wis) before getting elegant courtier, or wasting a feat on resilient(Int) after elegant courtier. In both cases you're wasting your one use of resilient feat on a secondary save.

    You are better to use it as resilient(Dex).
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    Wasting a feat on resilient(Wis) before getting elegant courtier, or wasting a feat on resilient(Int) after elegant courtier. In both cases you're wasting your one use of resilient feat on a secondary save.

    You are better to use it as resilient(Dex).
    I feel like I mostly agree with this as well. But crgaston had a neat optional idea to explore.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    Wasting a feat on resilient(Wis) before getting elegant courtier, or wasting a feat on resilient(Int) after elegant courtier. In both cases you're wasting your one use of resilient feat on a secondary save.

    You are better to use it as resilient(Dex).
    You can only take Resilient once (as you point out) so if you pass on this opportunity, you'll only be proficient in three saves. If you take it, you can be proficient in four. And failed Int (or Cha) saves can wreck your day. The difference between -1 and +1-5 (or +1 and +3-7) is not insignificant.

    Meanwhile, if (as the OP specifies for this build) you've taken Shield Master, If you are subjected to an effect which allows you to make a Dexterity save for half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage, interposing you shield between you and the effect.. Without a roll. So why would you boost your roll against Dex saves?

    You also have a +2 (minimum) bonus against Dex saves that target only you, plus your 1 or 2 Dex, and then you can use Evasion to take half or none.

    Which is the wasted Feat again?

    I admit, it IS campaign dependent. If your DM never throws enemy casters at you, or if he doesn't have those casters use spells from XGtE, then you're probably OK. If you've got a Paladin for a melee buddy, you're also probably OK.

    But especially outside of those circumstances, it's not a "wasted" feat. I consider Resilient Wis basically mandatory by tier 3 for anyone who doesn't have it, so from my perspective, Samurai essentially get an extra Feat. Using that extra Feat to expand your defensive capabilities against spells that can severely hamper you (Synaptic Static) or take you out of the fight altogether (Banishment, Maze), when your job is to be a meat shield and take down threats RFN...?

    Not a waste.
    Last edited by Crgaston; 2019-09-18 at 09:25 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Valid point. Something to at least consider at fighter 6 feat. By that time you would be at least 6 levels maybe more (depending on level progression) through the campaign and can get a better feel for the DM and such...
    Last edited by RingoBongo; 2019-09-18 at 10:02 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crgaston View Post
    You can only take Resilient once (as you point out) so if you pass on this opportunity, you'll only be proficient in three saves.
    How can you believe that?

    Fighter has Str/Con save, you reach elegant courtier for Wis save, then you get resilient(Cha).
    Fighter has Str/Con save, you get resilient(Wis), then you reach elegant courtier for Cha save.

    That's 4 saves whichever way you go. You gain nothing.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    Wasting a feat on resilient(Wis) before getting elegant courtier, or wasting a feat on resilient(Int) after elegant courtier. In both cases you're wasting your one use of resilient feat on a secondary save.

    You are better to use it as resilient(Dex).
    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    How can you believe that?

    Fighter has Str/Con save, you reach elegant courtier for Wis save, then you get resilient(Cha).
    Fighter has Str/Con save, you get resilient(Wis), then you reach elegant courtier for Cha save.

    That's 4 saves whichever way you go. You gain nothing.
    Obviously, you're correct.

    I assumed that you meant you wouldn't take the Res Int or Res Cha since you believe they'd be wasted, but that was an inappropriate assumption, and a poorly stated argument, on my part. You'll have 4 saves as a 7th+ level Samurai if you take Res anything.

    What I should have said is that you'd miss the chance to have two mental saves if you wasted a feat on Res Dex, at any time, for this particular build which includes Shield Master and Evasion.

  15. - Top - End - #15
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    One thing to consider if you're wanting to stress Str over Dex is see if you will have access to Ring of Evasion (this is an option in AL, for example, if you join the Zhents). I've will attach these to low Dex fighters to essentially give them great saves in Str, Con and Dex then give Resilience in Wis. The high-end game demands you have good saves, so this is a good method of hedging your bets.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crgaston View Post
    What I should have said is that you'd miss the chance to have two mental saves if you wasted a feat on Res Dex, at any time, for this particular build which includes Shield Master and Evasion.
    Oh, right. I see what you meant then.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Looks pretty fun to me. I have a dex based battle master swashbuckler in the group I dm and he does well, so should be pretty decent.

    I kinda want to do a barbarian strength rogue,
    Bear barb 5 / rouge x (unsure which rogue subclass, maybe thief)
    Bugbear race.
    This giant hulking gorilla man weilding daggers just swinging down from the ceiling and stabbing someone with enough force to go clean through them
    Last edited by MagneticKitty; 2019-09-19 at 12:55 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by darknite View Post
    One thing to consider if you're wanting to stress Str over Dex is see if you will have access to Ring of Evasion (this is an option in AL, for example, if you join the Zhents). I've will attach these to low Dex fighters to essentially give them great saves in Str, Con and Dex then give Resilience in Wis. The high-end game demands you have good saves, so this is a good method of hedging your bets.
    I appreciate the input on SRD magic items as I do not have much experience with them in general. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by MagneticKitty View Post
    Looks pretty fun to me. I have a dex based battle master swashbuckler in the group I dm and he does well, so should be pretty decent.

    I kinda want to do a barbarian strength rogue,
    Bear barb 5 / rouge x (unsure which rogue subclass, maybe thief)
    Bugbear race.
    This giant hulking gorilla man weilding daggers just swinging down from the ceiling and stabbing someone with enough force to go clean through them
    Conceptually, very cool. Bug bear works here too, easily. I just know there is some frowned upon cheese out there about bug bear rogues so I tried to avoid that some.

    Barb and rogue is a classic combo to get advantage and land sneak attacks among other helpful features. There are quite a few builds I've seen with this combo (not sure how many focus on strength though). By taking bear totem you can shore up your defenses if you decide to reckless attack that turn, however. You only get the damage resistance from bear totem during a rage and at level 5 you only get 3 rages per long rest. So you have to make them count. Then, once you are out (or if you decide not to use on easy battle and then are suprised by being hit with a crit) you are SOL...

    Barbarian might also be a bit more MAD as you will likely want to push con and Dex higher for ac. Not entirely sure about this though...there may be a work around.

    The fighter/rouge will also easily and consistently get feats nearly every other level after 4 for a total of 7 if you play your cards right. This adds a bit more versitlity to your character.

    Either way, I don't feel like strength rogues get enough love; there's quite alot of potential that is often overlooked.
    Last edited by RingoBongo; 2019-09-19 at 03:42 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by RingoBongo View Post
    My personal favorite after reading your feedback would probably have to be:

    Goliath samurai 7 or 8+ / swashbuckler rogue 9+

    - I decided to push further into rogue for sneak
    attack scaling and the panache ability, which
    coincidentally synergizes with samurai ability
    elegant courtier. Also, for this reason I went
    with 12 for both Wis and Cha.

    Starting ability scores: 17, 13, 14, 8, 12, 12

    Feats: HAM, shield master, sentinel, resilient (Dex), tough, +2 strength

    Skills:
    - athletics (from Goliath race)
    - perception and acrobatics (from fighter)
    - persuasion, stealth, and deception (From rogue/ background)

    Expertise: athletics, stealth, persuasion, and ???

    Fighting style: defense

    Damage reduction FTW:
    - Goliath racial feature (1/short rest) -1d12+con (any type)
    - HAM -3 per hit (non-magical piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing)
    - rogue features: lvl 5 evasion, and lvl 7 uncanny Dodge (situationally halving incoming damage)
    So... My pervious character died. And now I'm rolling with this one. I didn't have much time to think of progression yet and I'm still unsure.

    My thoughts so far.... f1, r4, f5...? After this i am lost.

  20. - Top - End - #20
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Strength Fighter/Rogue MC

    Usually Rogue is better for L1 simply for the extra skills and dex save prof.

    I may be too late to influence you, but there was another post on this today and here's what I suggested (This was for a level 8-10):

    Rogue 1 -> EK 5 -> Swash 5 -> EK onward

    Shield Master
    ASI Stat Increases or Maybe Warcaster, depending on needs.

    Why shield master? Why not just take rogue to 7?

    My theory is this: If you can knock someone prone after your attack you can use the swash's built in ability to move your full distance away. For most enemies, this means they're out of the fight for a round (or at least not attacking in melee). EK in general gives you a couple of bursts (3 at level 5) of Shield or Absorb Elements to keep you tankin and some cool cantrips (Booming Blade of course but you can get one other for out of combat or just as a range attack). Fighter style you can go either +2 dmg or +1 AC, either works fine.

    We go to Swash 5 of course for Uncanny Dodge

    You could use two weapon fighting instead of course, and just use one of your attacks to shove. It has pros and cons, but if you want to dual wield you you'd take Rogue to 7 or 8 even for Evasion.

    And finally, while Shield Master doesn't synergize well with War Magic, there are plenty of times this knockdown strategy isn't going to work or be worth using your bonus action on. Better instead to Booming Blade, slap the guy in the face, and move away as normal.

    I think you get more out of EK than you do out of Rogue in general, including all those juicy ASIs and eventually the ability to cast hold person with advantage and then action surge your sneak attacks and regular attacks.

    As for stat outlay and race and whatnot...

    Almost any Str/Con/Int bonus race works here I think. Basically I'd just pump dex to 14 and leave it and just pump str and con as normal. You can also add some points into INT if you ever plan on using spells to make attacks/saves.

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by RingoBongo View Post
    So... My pervious character died. And now I'm rolling with this one. I didn't have much time to think of progression yet and I'm still unsure.

    My thoughts so far.... f1, r4, f5...? After this i am lost.
    We really just want fighter 2, 3, or 11.

    If you're really dedicated to a STR build and 2x attack our main gains are grapple/shove/maneuver DC. In that vein I'd go for Champion 5/ATX.

    GrappleShove thing prone and then (shadow blade) booming blade it with expanded crit range.

    (This is pretty much just a jank EK but as I said, Fi5/Rx isn't a great mix)
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-09-22 at 02:23 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #22
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Strength Fighter/Rogue MC

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlockpwns View Post
    Usually Rogue is better for L1 simply for the extra skills and dex save prof.
    He wants heavy armor. No choice.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Strength Fighter/Rogue MC

    Here's what I settled on for the progression of the previously mentioned goliath swash/samurai in case any were wondering...


    f1, r5, f6, r8, f7, r10 (I went rogue before fighter to capitalize on uncanny dodge synergy with HAM to take all the hits. Plus, I ended up being in rogueless, fighter-heavy party -- so I figured some variety early on could help)

    at rogue 11 (character level 18) my capstone sequence starts to go to work with reliable talent useful for 4 different saving throws (str,con,wis,dex), at rogue 12 add another feat, at fighter 8 (character 20) add another feat or take swash 13 and get elegant maneuver and another sneak attack die. neat.

    Alternatively,

    I think a half-orc champion 6/swash X would be good too. Stats and feats might be slightly different than discussed above. but still would be a cool strength based HAM/Shieldmaster build. BM 6/Swash X , also good in the same vein.
    Last edited by RingoBongo; 2019-09-26 at 08:14 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
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    Default Re: Str based (Fighter/rogue) idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by MagneticKitty View Post
    Looks pretty fun to me. I have a dex based battle master swashbuckler in the group I dm and he does well, so should be pretty decent.

    I kinda want to do a barbarian strength rogue,
    Bear barb 5 / rouge x (unsure which rogue subclass, maybe thief)
    Bugbear race.
    This giant hulking gorilla man wielding daggers just swinging down from the ceiling and stabbing someone with enough force to go clean through them
    Bugbear rogues wielding whips are fun. Personally I'd flavor them as chains for that back alley thug feel. :)
    Last edited by McSkrag; 2019-09-26 at 11:23 PM.

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