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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    I'm no good at gauging balance by reading so I defer to others (though Infectious Inspiration did make me raise an eyebrow).

    I like College of Eloquence and it's thematically PERFECT for this adventure path I've always wanted to run (Zeitgeist by Ryan Nock, if you're curious). Of course, I also want to build a parody of College of Eloquence where all the class features are named after logical fallacies.

    Oath of Heroism is very, very meh. I can see possibilities for, say a Paladin of Kord or Kahless or some other "Seek glory in battle" type patron, but it still feels kinda flat. It needs... something. Plus, most Paladin Oaths spin themselves as doing good somehow, while this is pretty self serving. Even something in their about making yourself ready to do The Thing at any time would help.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayn82 View Post
    I think Eloquence is on par with Lore. At lvl 3, you get the equivalent to two spells, for very specific niche, but not using your spellcasting resource.

    At lvl 6, undeniable logic gives you two solid uses for the Bardic Inspiration for those situations when talking isn't really an option. Even the Healing bonus action is useful so you can recover an ally on death saves and still cast an spell on your turn. Something couldn't be done with Healing Word.
    Might not work though. The target has to be able to hear you, and an "unconscious creature..." "... is unaware of its surroundings".

    (Admittedly there is room to argue either way, since "unaware" isn't explicit, and people in real life can still "hear" a bit even when asleep, which is why I said "might".)
    Last edited by NNescio; 2019-09-18 at 01:13 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    Might not work though. The target has to be able to hear you, and an "unconscious creature..." "... is unaware of its surroundings".
    They have to hear you. Not necessarily understand you.

    I can see DMs ruling this one either way.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Infectious Inspiration is good. Eloquence overall will have a hard time deciding what to do with the inspiration. Undeniable logic might need a save instead of letting it just happen.

    Mighty deed as I read it only does one of the effects when you do it. Otherwise it would be bonkers.

    Less overpowered than the last two UA as I see it.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Hero 15/Swashbuckler 5 - flavorful, powerful, but MAD.
    Thoughts?

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot View Post
    Infectious Inspiration is good. Eloquence overall will have a hard time deciding what to do with the inspiration. Undeniable logic might need a save instead of letting it just happen.

    Mighty deed as I read it only does one of the effects when you do it. Otherwise it would be bonkers.

    Less overpowered than the last two UA as I see it.
    Undeniable Logic does need a save. An Intelligence save, specifically.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Oh, and both sub-classes will fit great when I will run Odyssey of the dragonlords later on.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Based on the comments so far, guessing there's a version of the pdf that went out without the INT save on applying disadvantage on the Bard's 6th lvl ability. Without the save it's OP. With the save seems fine. Fail an INT save, get disadvantage on the next save seems fair.

    They seem more balanced than the last two UAs that came out. With all the new subclasses, guessing we're getting a new Xanathars like book in the Spring... :-D

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    I need to explicitly state something on the Bard's lv6 feature:

    "The creature takes psychic damage equal to
    the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration
    die, and the creature must succeed on an
    Intelligence saving throw against your spell
    save DC or have disadvantage on the next
    saving throw it makes before the end of your
    next turn"


    C&P'd directly from the article.

    .....it doesn't apply only to spells. So if you have an item that forces a save, it works with it.

    Like if you're playing Curse of Strahd and the Cleric has the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind to paralyze a Vampire, you can use this to force DisAdv on their save. And it also works on recurring saving throws, it doesn't have to be against the initial save.

    This Bard absolutely and utterly craps on Heightened Spell metamagic and its not even a question.
    It doesn't beat Wild Sorcs though, because disadvantage + 1d4 penalty >> disadvantage if they fail an Int save first.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-09-18 at 01:53 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Talij View Post
    Based on the comments so far, guessing there's a version of the pdf that went out without the INT save on applying disadvantage on the Bard's 6th lvl ability. Without the save it's OP. With the save seems fine. Fail an INT save, get disadvantage on the next save seems fair.

    They seem more balanced than the last two UAs that came out. With all the new subclasses, guessing we're getting a new Xanathars like book in the Spring... :-D
    Oh, it was there all along. I didn't read it properly apparently.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Does Eloquence come with a fedora? "Debate me, coward! My logic is unassailable!"

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by alchahest View Post
    Does Eloquence come with a fedora? "Debate me, coward! My logic is unassailable!"
    All bards come with a jaunty hat, it's in their standard equipment list

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Oath of Heroism doesn't have Heroism as an oath spell.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
    I laughed that the first Oath of Heroism spell was Expeditious Retreat
    These were my first thoughts as well XD

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by CheddarChampion View Post
    I just realized that mighty deed can be used for both types in one go.
    You choose up to Cha mod creatures, but the effects don't have to be the same!
    Much better than I initially thought.
    To confirm this:

    Dan Dillon, member of the D&D Design team, confirmed to me that you can only activate one of the bullet points of the ability upon satisfying its conditions.

    So if you've got 20 Charisma, either up to 5 enemies can possibly be frightened or 5 allies get temp HP, but no 3/2 or 4/1 combo.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Mighty Deed... the frighten aspect of it makes my Conquest paladin immensely jealous. That is some of the best CC I've ever seen sorry I just re-read and it's only a turn's worth.
    Last edited by alchahest; 2019-09-18 at 03:01 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    Anyone else look at the Heroism Paladin and hear "I Need A Hero"? Cast Expeditious Retreat, CD for Peerless Athlete, Mighty Deed as you mulch through enemies:

    "He's got to be strong, and he's got to be fast, and he's got to be fresh from the fight."
    I hear the theme for league of legends pantheon rework. Totally planning this paladin as a Triton spartan style with polearm master spear /shield...

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    I have to think a Heroism Dex sorcadin EA shadow blade build would work VERY well. You get all the usual toys, and when conditions are right you’ll have a better than 60% chance to crit each round. That and likely a few kills will make for a lot of fear or temp HP
    Last edited by Spiritchaser; 2019-09-18 at 03:27 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Chatting with Jeremy Crawford right now on a livestream where he's answering questions on the UA.

    Being unconscious doesn't deafen you.
    Seriously.

    Therefore, Undeniable Logic can grant Advantage on a Death Save.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    Chatting with Jeremy Crawford right now on a livestream where he's answering questions on the UA.

    Being unconscious doesn't deafen you.
    Seriously.

    Therefore, Undeniable Logic can grant Advantage on a Death Save.
    "... and therefore, you're not bleeding to death."
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    So a ranger is like a Bachelor of Applied Druidology.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    "... and therefore, you're not bleeding to death."
    I like the idea of logic-ing people back to life.

    While I like the mechanics here, between this UA and the last, does it seem to anyone else that they seem to be running out of theme ideas for some of the classes? We’ve already got a Devotion and Crown Paladins, which are pretty close in theme (at least to me), and the Whisper Bard was a bit more sinister but still mainly focused on the wordsmithing side of the class.

    There are so many other good themes to run with out there. Why stay so close to the middle of the road on these?

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Well, conquest has dynamite mechanics, but occupies a very narrow conceptual space.

    Maybe they’re trying to avoid that?

    That said, I’d Love more conquest paladins!

    Well

    More cool narrowly defined melee + control/debuff oaths

    Not literally more conquest paladins

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    "... and therefore, you're not bleeding to death."
    The halfing thief lays bleeding in the ground, fighting to remain councious, when suddenly the Bard says the words that have, by reflex, awoken him a hundred times before, rallying all the willpower and vitality on his body:

    "Wake up boys! Breakfast is ready!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    Now you have me picturing someone using a Pretentious Fantasy Sword of Destiny for mundane tasks.

    "It is called Chirodin, Blade of Eternity! It was forged in the heart of the sun by the god Dathir, using the moon as a hammer and the corpse of Turtaris, Mother of All Dragons, as an anvil. No physical barrier can divert its blow, for it always goes exactly where its wielder wills it. So, as you can imagine, it cuts simply amazing flank steaks!"

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Nice mechanical additions, though they will need the usual balance-polish.

    Thematically I have my reservations.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    "It'll be alright in the end. If it's not alright, then it's not the end"

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by alchahest View Post
    "It'll be alright in the end. If it's not alright, then it's not the end"
    When you're an adventurer you can be in either a dangerous place or a safe place. If you're in a safe place don't worry.
    If you're in a dangerous place you're either injured or not. If you aren't injured, don't worry.
    If you're wounded it's either slight or severe. If it's slight, don't worry.
    If it's severe you'll either die or recover. If you'll recover don't worry.
    If you die you can't worry, so as an adventurer you should never be worried!

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by NNescio View Post
    Might not work though. The target has to be able to hear you, and an "unconscious creature..." "... is unaware of its surroundings".

    (Admittedly there is room to argue either way, since "unaware" isn't explicit, and people in real life can still "hear" a bit even when asleep, which is why I said "might".)
    Unaware is reasonably explicit, given the definition of the words hear and perceive in common English, which both stipulate awareness.

    When people say that you can hear when asleep, what they're saying is that some part of your brain is in fact aware of and perceiving sounds on some level. Unconscious people in real life actually are aware of their surroundings to some degree. So one could make the argument that an unconscious character shouldn't be entirely unaware of their surroundings (e.g. that the pg292 line shouldn't be there in the first place).

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    Being unconscious doesn't deafen you.
    Seriously.
    In fairness, this seems like a reasonable conclusion to get to if you want to properly model the idea of being awoken by a loud noise. Yes, I'm aware that "unconscious" and "asleep" mean two different things in the jargon of the game, but I can see where they don't want to suddenly disable, for example, certain sources of psychic damage against an unconscious person by saying that unconscious = deaf.

    If you really want to split that particular hair, a better one might be to say that, while Unconscious (as in, the thing that happens to you at 0 HP, specifically), a creature is treated as if it doesn't understand any language?

    Of course, that reminds me of the other thing I found really weird is that, unlike nearly all of the other "transcend language barrier" spells, features, and effects out there, the College of Eloquence (!) can even reach things that don't have a language at all. (Seriously, it's an entire sub-class centered around "good with words" and one of the first things it does is... be able to ignore the absence of words?)

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    I think people greatly overestimate the 6th level ability of the subclass. The lore bard does a similar effect to saving throws with cutting words, but at an earlier level, as a reaction (which can be notoriously hard to use as a bard). With no save.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    These are alright, they are not OP in the least. The Eloquence's Universal Speech is good, likely the best "communication tool" since while short in range, it allows you to communicate with ANY creature, by its wording even mindless creatures would "understand you", what does that mean? Its anyone's guess, but nvm.

    Free Calm Emotions... meh, its a pretty situational spell, and the OoC uses are also very limited (maybe even impossible depending on DM's interpretation of "hostile") since it only works on creatures that are hostile towards you.

    Undeniable Logic is good, but not so much for the offensive use, but the defensive one, as stated above, being able to get an ally back up, as a BA and WITHOUT using a spell, is an extremely good ability.

    The offensive use deals minimal damage, and your target needs to fail an Int save in order get disadvantage on its next save... see the problem there? I need to have make my enemy fail a save in order to make it more likely he will fail another save... Ofc its not that simpmle, cause Int targeting effects are the most likely to land on average, but you have to spend a BA and a BI die to get a chance that the enemy has disadvantage on a save. Its a good feature but I don't find it broken or OP.

    Finally Infectious Inspiration gives you Cha extra inspiration dice per day, nice but nothing awesome, the safety net feature i feel its much more important, because it means that every Inspiration die will be useful, and thus you can be much liberal with their use. Normally if I roll a 3 in a save and I assume im about 8 points short of the DC, i'll may not use a d10 inspiration die, unless it was literal life or death. This feature alows you to use it and if it doesn't work, no matter it's not wasted.

    IMO this is a pretty good class overall, kind of a meme archetype, and the mechanics behind it are balanced.

    The Paladin sub, I don't like the flavor much, my idea of a Hero is pretty different from the tennets written there :S

    Aside from that, Mighty Deed is a cool mechanic, and Glorious Defense is maybe the first viable reaction I see that can be comparable to Shield. Problem is for both those features to work well you need to pretty much max Cha (mostly GD tbh, but for the fear aspect of MD its also useful), and I don't like it, because its another reason to take the ever present HB1 dips (blegh the HB is the real problem not this sub, but w/e)

    Peerless Athlete is ok, Legendary Strike is pretty good, maybe too good. Its weaker than Champions lvl 3 obviously, but champion doesn't come with Divine Smite, crit fishing Pally is a fairly popular build, this makes it better than the usual HB's Curse, since its not against a particular enemy.

    Living Myth is, ironically, a lil bit dull, though extremely powerful, For 10 minutes hit every turn, pass a save every turn. For a vague comparison, Rogue's capstone allows you turn a hit into a miss once per sr, assuming 2 sr in a (not really) "standard" adventuring day, that's 3 times a day. You are quite likely to get more than 3 uses of this for that.



    tl;dr: Overall both classes are balanced, Pally perhaps being slightly more powerful than it should (i see all of its features, except spells list, as on par or better than Vengeance which I consider one of the strongest sub)

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    If Undeniable Logic works on unconscious allies, then how come one of the many reasons the PDK is derided is being unable to do the exact same thing? Is the logic that undeniable... or is there a lack of it altogether?

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