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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    Iíll jump in here with two builds, though given that the intangibles may be more important than the numbers, Iím not sure what itíll prove.

    Half Elven Dex Sorcadin with EA and running shadow blade. Level 20 vs AC 20

    Vengence/Divine Soul vs. Heroism/Divine Soul (I like DS for this because thaumaturgy and shadow blade go rather well together)

    Iíve done this with Paladin 12/8, though 8/12 would be great as well.

    5th level spell for shadow blade, dim light or darkness, with the legendary strike up. Quickened GFB or BB.

    The vengence sorcadin gets 101.4 DPR (counting miss and crits) before smites, and has a 37% chance of scoring a crit to smite on. (the crit damage is included for base damage, smite is not)
    The Heroism sorcadin gets 111.8 DPR (counting miss and crits) before smites, and has a 61% chance of scoring a crit to smite on. (The crit damage is included for base damage, smite is not)

    A 10% damage bonus is a pretty big deal on its own, about the same as adding Elven accuracy to a build like this...and that extra opportunity for crit smites is likely worth more than that, however:

    It takes an extra round to fully come on line, a round where that vengence sorcadin can be murdering something with a quickened GFB

    It eliminates the backup option to generate advantage that the vengence sorcadin has through vow of enmity if youíre fighting outside during the day.

    I really think that the 10%, plus extra crits, while very strong, arenít worth the price of admission on their own.

    Now: add in the control from mighty deed and this starts to look a whole lot less ambiguous. Youíll be doing so much damage, and gritting so much, that youíll likely proc fear on most rounds.
    Thanks for the answer!

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    What are you talking about? I'm the one who was talking specifically about its usefulness for a Heroism Paladin, and you're the one who has been talking about the expanded crit range in a vacuum and trying to abstract it to an individual feat, spell, or the like. So this quote seems exactly backwards to me.

    So I'll repeat my request, asking you to consider it specifically for a Paladin that optimizes for it and share your results so that we can take a look.
    I agree with Ludic that Heroism crit range is not really good CD. First of all: you need advantage. Paladin by himself has NO way to get advantage apart from Vengeance. Shield Master is a feat/ASI lost and depends too highly on DM RAI when you can bash.

    2 attacks per turn (even 3 with haste) with just 19-20 crit range will give almost no improvement in your crit chance.

    Of course you can say that other people can give you advantage. But if I get advantage from different character - then it's not really Heroism that is outstanding, right? Every Paladin benefits GREATLY from advantage from other classes.

    Now, of course we can multiclass our Paladin to get: Fearie Fire or Darkness/Devil Sight combo. But again - we need to multiclass.

    By itself Herois is not really that impressive combat Paladin. Pure Devotion with GWM or Pure Vengeance with PAM GWM are better combat Paladins.

    Also I would like to remind that every Paladin get easy get 19-20 crit range by simple Hexblade dip. Sure, vs one target but you can get it. And I doubt many people would waste Smite on crit vs some simple mob and would rather use precious Smite slot when your crit something that is worth smitting in the first place. As my experienced proved- I almost never burnt Smite on crit if that crit wasn't on enemy caster or "boss". And if I was attacking enemy caster or boss- VoE or Hex Curse would already be on him/her.

    Hence why I am not impressed by Heroism CD.
    Last edited by Benny89; 2019-09-19 at 10:07 AM.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Even if the DPR values for a hPaladin and a vPaladin are comparable, hPaladin has a few advantages in the damage department, IMHO:

    First is pressure - damage spikes put a lot of defensive pressure on your opponent, and the Paladin chassis is made to capitalize on that advantage.

    Second is the experience - crits are fun, and I would rather play a fun class than with a boring yet reliable one.
    Last edited by Justin Sane; 2019-09-19 at 10:28 AM.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny89 View Post
    I agree with Ludic that Heroism crit range is not really good CD. First of all: you need advantage. Paladin by himself has NO way to get advantage apart from Vengeance. Shield Master is a feat/ASI lost and depends too highly on DM RAI when you can bash.

    2 attacks per turn (even 3 with haste) with just 19-20 crit range will give almost no improvement in your crit chance.

    Of course you can say that other people can give you advantage. But if I get advantage from different character - then it's not really Heroism that is outstanding, right? Every Paladin benefits GREATLY from advantage from other classes.

    Now, of course we can multiclass our Paladin to get: Fearie Fire or Darkness/Devil Sight combo. But again - we need to multiclass.

    By itself Herois is not really that impressive combat Paladin. Pure Devotion with GWM or Pure Vengeance with PAM GWM are better combat Paladins.

    Also I would like to remind that every Paladin get easy get 19-20 crit range by simple Hexblade dip. Sure, vs one target but you can get it. And I doubt many people would waste Smite on crit vs some simple mob and would rather use precious Smite slot when your crit something that is worth smitting in the first place. As my experienced proved- I almost never burnt Smite on crit if that crit wasn't on enemy caster or "boss". And if I was attacking enemy caster or boss- VoE or Hex Curse would already be on him/her.

    Hence why I am not impressed by Heroism CD.
    Mounted combatant feat gives you a relatively reliable, action-cost-free advantage (while greatly improving the survivability of your mount, a reasonably important consideration for Paladins, a melee class with low mobility)

    All Paladins benefit greatly from getting advantage from other classes, but this one benefits more. So this ability basically makes all the advantage-giving abilities of other party members better. As someone pointed out in this thread, the ideal melee pair now is a wolf-barbarian and a hero paladin. They make each other considerably more powerful.

    Not all games allow multi class. Of those who do, some ban Hexblade dipping. Of those who don't ban it, some players dislike the theme of mixing warlocks and paladins. Of those who are ok with that, some are offput by the cheesiness and clichedness of the hexblade dip. Even if you pass all these hurdles, a Paladin that dipped warlock will have the improved crit-range against one creature in about half the fights. The Hero Paladin that dips hexblade will have it in just about every fight (some of them against all enemies, some of them against just one).

    Finally, I agree that you should save your higher level smites for the big bosses. But if I crit as a Paladin I will almost always use at least a one level smite, unless I think the creature is already going to die without it anyway. 4d8 (6d8 if fiend or undead), no action-cost damage is very good damage for a 1st level slot.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-09-19 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    The bard subclass looks a little weak and meh.

    The paladin one is a hair strong but nothing I would say out of line.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    The bard subclass looks a little weak and meh.

    The paladin one is a hair strong but nothing I would say out of line.
    Wait wait wait wait.

    Did we...

    Are we in agreement this UA is fairly acceptable?

    Find out what Cleric used Divine Intervention, because this is a miracle!

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny89 View Post
    I agree with Ludic that Heroism crit range is not really good CD.
    I must note that I haven't actually settled on my verdict yet on how good it is. I'm still digesting. Just was curious about whether Diplomancer had already run the numbers and found something scary, to save me the effort of running more numbers myself

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Mighty Deed is once per round. 'Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until the start of your next turn.'

    It's still really good though.


    Ah crap you're right, Mighty Deed fails the Bag O' Rats test. C'mon WotC, you can do better than that.
    It should have a minimum CR to trigger it, equal to 1/4 your character level or higher. The deed has to be mighty, after all.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    The bard subclass looks a little weak and meh.
    I kinda wish they had gone all-in on boosting Bardic Inspiration itself a little more - Infectious Inspiration is somewhat wasted on a subclass that has alternate ways of spending that resource. I mean, it'd be fantastic on a Valor Bard.
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    It should have a minimum CR to trigger it, equal to 1/4 your character level or higher. The deed has to be mighty, after all.
    Or make it valid against a target that had taken a hostile action against the player or an ally within x rounds

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    Or make it valid against a target that had taken a hostile action against the player or an ally within x rounds
    The ability does say it's deeds "on the battlefield"... fluff vs crunch, I know, but usually that sort of cheese just gets a NOPE from the DM and that's it. They will probably correct it at some point.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    The ability does say it's deeds "on the battlefield"... fluff vs crunch, I know, but usually that sort of cheese just gets a NOPE from the DM and that's it. They will probably correct it at some point.
    I also don't like that Mighty Deed doesn't have the temp HP expire. So it sort of rewards you for finding a decidedly unmighty deed to build up the party's temp HP before they go and perform an actually mighty deed.

    Yes, it's something the DM can just say "NOPE" to, but with better written rules they wouldn't have to. It's inelegant, and I hope they do indeed correct it at some point.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    I also don't like that Mighty Deed doesn't have the temp HP expire. So it sort of rewards you for finding a decidedly unmighty deed to build up the party's temp HP before they go and perform an actually mighty deed.

    Yes, it's something the DM can just say "NOPE" to, but with better written rules they wouldn't have to. It's inelegant, and I hope they do indeed correct it at some point.
    The standard wording is "When you reduce a hostile creature..."

    Just pop that line in. Its obviously missing. Not a big deal.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    I also don't like that Mighty Deed doesn't have the temp HP expire. So it sort of rewards you for finding a decidedly unmighty deed to build up the party's temp HP before they go and perform an actually mighty deed.

    Yes, it's something the DM can just say "NOPE" to, but with better written rules they wouldn't have to. It's inelegant, and I hope they do indeed correct it at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    The standard wording is "When you reduce a hostile creature..."

    Just pop that line in. Its obviously missing. Not a big deal.
    With UA material I feel like there always has to be an agreement between player and DM that they won't abuse it. Killing of a rat before a battle just feels like abuse.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    The standard wording is "When you reduce a hostile creature..."

    Just pop that line in. Its obviously missing. Not a big deal.
    If you stick pins in rats, I suppose they get hostile, and will fight you, well, like cornered rats.. just saying :p

    It really should have a CR limit to avoid that kind of abuse (though I think 5e's design philosophy is to not worry too much about obvious cheese and let the DM handle it).

    Alternatively, it could say that it only works in combat. Since the start of combat is determined by the DM saying "roll for initiative", this gives the option to the DM of saying "ok, you kill the rat you psycho, very heroic of you"
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-09-19 at 11:55 AM.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Killing a rat before battle for temp HP does seem lame, but sacrificing something more respectable fits the "Greek Hero" feel that people have picked up.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    I'm suddenly reminded of this:

    https://youtu.be/ENRzf7gPxj4

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Mighty Deed just doesn't feel quite right to me. Hitting people who are paralyzed just to make sure you get the buff, focusing on a zombie instead of the necromancer controlling them, and so forth. It just feels gamey, and not so much like it encourages me to aspire to mightier deeds. Not to mention the fact that the buff doesn't expire, so you basically end every combat by refreshing the party's temp HP.

    ...Not to mention that it'll encourage players to worry about who gets the kill, which feels a bit dissociative here. Moreso than, say, the Fiend Warlock. And they'll worry about it more than the Fiend Warlock does, since the buff/debuff is a bigger deal.

    The fluff also has this Kord-like focus on honing the body and such, but all of the mechanics want you to raise Charisma first.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny89 View Post
    Of course you can say that other people can give you advantage. But if I get advantage from different character - then it's not really Heroism that is outstanding, right? Every Paladin benefits GREATLY from advantage from other classes.

    Now, of course we can multiclass our Paladin to get: Fearie Fire or Darkness/Devil Sight combo. But again - we need to multiclass.

    By itself Herois is not really that impressive combat Paladin. Pure Devotion with GWM or Pure Vengeance with PAM GWM are better combat Paladins.

    Also I would like to remind that every Paladin get easy get 19-20 crit range by simple Hexblade dip. Sure, vs one target but you can get it. And I doubt many people would waste Smite on crit vs some simple mob and would rather use precious Smite slot when your crit something that is worth smitting in the first place. As my experienced proved- I almost never burnt Smite on crit if that crit wasn't on enemy caster or "boss". And if I was attacking enemy caster or boss- VoE or Hex Curse would already be on him/her.

    Hence why I am not impressed by Heroism CD.
    "Hero paladin can't generate advantage for itself."

    "Other paladins can increase crit range by multiclassing."

    Seriously?

    hPaladin can get advantage from multiclassing barbarian. Or from mounted combatant. Or from shield bash. Or from just... regular shoving without the feat. Or from grabbing a familiar via ritual caster or magic intitiate. They've got options. Hexblade/vPally isn't even a good combo because they both require a bonus action and stick to a single target. The odds you get both on one enemy are basically zero.

    For pure DPR, advantage > crit range every day of the week. But vPally CD only works on one enemy per combat, doesn't play nice with Hexblade's curse, can't be precast, and precludes getting a benefit from other sources of advantage.

    A class that's good at making use of the rest of the party is strong on its own merits. Sure, it isn't strong by itself but by that measure the bard is the worst class in the game, and we all know that isn't true. I'd say that vPally's CD is equivalent in strength, but way more awkward to use.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2019-09-19 at 12:07 PM.
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    I really want to like the Oath of Heroism, because the idea of it fits some of the Paladin orders in my worlds, but I hope they make the fluff and crunch incentives match up more for the final version.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    The problem I see with giving Mighty Deed a minimum CR requirement (and yes, I know it was me who just suggested it) is that it presumes there's nothing heroic about fighting a literal army of goblins once you hit tier 2 or whatever, and that runs contrary to the design philosophy of 5e generally, and by appearances, the Vow of Heroism in particular.

    I don't know that I have a good solution to that problem.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    "Hero paladin can't generate advantage for itself."

    "Other paladins can increase crit range by multiclassing."

    Seriously?

    hPaladin can get advantage from multiclassing barbarian. Or from mounted combatant. Or from shield bash. Or from just... regular shoving without the feat. Or from grabbing a familiar via ritual caster or magic intitiate. They've got options. Hexblade/vPally isn't even a good combo because they both require a bonus action and stick to a single target. The odds you get both on one enemy are basically zero.

    For pure DPR, advantage > crit range every day of the week. But vPally CD only works on one enemy per combat, doesn't play nice with Hexblade's curse, can't be precast, and precludes getting a benefit from other sources of advantage.

    A class that's good at making use of the rest of the party is strong on its own merits. Sure, it isn't strong by itself but by that measure the bard is the worst class in the game, and we all know that isn't true. I'd say that vPally's CD is equivalent in strength, but way more awkward to use.
    This. Heck, I even thought of one more way. Get your (unmounted if necessary) steed to give you the help action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    The problem I see with giving Mighty Deed a minimum CR requirement (and yes, I know it was me who just suggested it) is that it presumes there's nothing heroic about fighting a literal army of goblins once you hit tier 2 or whatever, and that runs contrary to the design philosophy of 5e generally, and by appearances, the Vow of Heroism in particular.

    I don't know that I have a good solution to that problem.
    Just precede it with "after you roll for initiative", which is basically the crunch of fluff "battlefield". It is always the DM who decides when initiative is rolled. And if you are, in the middle of a real fight, using your actions to attack mice instead of your actual enemies, I'm not sure that will be a good trade-off
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-09-19 at 12:21 PM.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Just precede it with "after you roll for initiative", which is basically the crunch of fluff "battlefield". It is always the DM who decides when initiative is rolled. And if you are, in the middle of a real fight, using your actions to attack mice instead of your actual enemies, I'm not sure that will be a good trade-off
    It seems like a creative player could make it work. For example, a divine soul sorcadin could jump into the middle of a pack of enemies and cast Word of Radiance, with Distant Spell if he feels like it. Against a cluster, Word of Radiance is already going to be more efficient than the attack action, but as long as the paladin has a rat in his pocket it's now an excellent control or buffing tactic as well.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Ways a Hero paladin can get Advantage, without any party help.

    1. Shove action exists.

    2. Steeds from Find Steed can Help action if you aren't riding them.

    3. Guiding Bolt (on their oath spell list) grants advantage on next attack.

    4. Various feats could provide advantage.
    4a. If we want a more Greek way of being a hero, Shield mastery (as an upgrade to the Shove action) with a Spear sounds like a way to go.
    4b. Magic initiate can grant Find Familiar for additional Help actions. Faerie Fire as an alternate for free advantage on a target, maybe even multiple targets due to it being AoE (which pairs nicely with the fact Mighty Deed wants to get kills and their CD can work against any number of targets. This one feels like a great choice).
    4c. Grappler feat on those you have grappled.
    4d. Mounted Combatant in case basic Find Steed help actions aren't enough.

    5. Races can provide advantage in a pinch. Kobolds near allies is a stretch since I said this should be without party help explicitly.

    This is disregarding multiclassing, this can all be done as a straight Heroism paladin. All can be done within 4 levels.

    Ways a Vengeance paladin can get a 19-20 crit range
    Multiclass as Hexblade or Champion. There's basically no other way round this. It will slow their paladin progression, but multiclassing is cool and can provide other benefits. But to even be a Vengeance paladin and get the expanded crit range needs at least 4 levels total for Hexblade, or 6 levels total for Champion.

    If we add an actual party, the Heroism paladin gets uncountable ways to gain advantage. The Vengeance paladin's choices remain the same.

    I dunno, I think 19-20 as a channel divinity isn't that weak even because of this, on top of the fact it isn't attached to single target.

    Edit for corretion: Find Steed is a Level 2 spell, so that would be 5 levels. If you DON'T control it, though, you can still ride it and it won't be limited by its choice of actions.
    Last edited by Protolisk; 2019-09-19 at 02:57 PM.

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    The problem I see with giving Mighty Deed a minimum CR requirement (and yes, I know it was me who just suggested it) is that it presumes there's nothing heroic about fighting a literal army of goblins once you hit tier 2 or whatever, and that runs contrary to the design philosophy of 5e generally, and by appearances, the Vow of Heroism in particular.

    I don't know that I have a good solution to that problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Just precede it with "after you roll for initiative", which is basically the crunch of fluff "battlefield". It is always the DM who decides when initiative is rolled. And if you are, in the middle of a real fight, using your actions to attack mice instead of your actual enemies, I'm not sure that will be a good trade-off
    @Jaapleton had it earlier. Just specify "hostile" creatures. Presumably as soon as you attack the rats they'll run away and not be hostile. Fits with the theming too. There's no glory in fighting someone who can't fight back.

    The harder issue with mighty deed is how many rolls it requires. As a DM I really don't like the idea of rolling 5+ saving throws every single time the hPally takes a turn. Slows things down.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2019-09-19 at 01:13 PM.
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    It seems like a creative player could make it work. For example, a divine soul sorcadin could jump into the middle of a pack of enemies and cast Word of Radiance, with Distant Spell if he feels like it. Against a cluster, Word of Radiance is already going to be more efficient than the attack action, but as long as the paladin has a rat in his pocket it's now an excellent control or buffing tactic as well.
    Can you see a rat inside your pocket in the middle of a battle when you are surrounded by enemies? ;)

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Re-reading the discussion, I think the heroism crit rate is weak, UNLESS you build around it (with some help of your friends).

    Hexblade 3 Paladin Heroisn 17, 2 ASI in cha, elven accuracy, Greatweapon master.

    Triple dice rolling with crit range 19-20, with each crit garanteeing an extra attack and an effect (THP or Fear)? That's pretty awesome. But you do need help on that advantage.

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    Los Angeles

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodcloud View Post
    Re-reading the discussion, I think the heroism crit rate is weak, UNLESS you build around it (with some help of your friends).

    Hexblade 3 Paladin Heroisn 17, 2 ASI in cha, elven accuracy, Greatweapon master.

    Triple dice rolling with crit range 19-20, with each crit garanteeing an extra attack and an effect (THP or Fear)? That's pretty awesome. But you do need help on that advantage.
    Could speed it up with Half-Elf so that you only need 1 Cha bump. Start with 17, +1 from Elven Accuracy. Could be interesting to see how it fares.

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    SD
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    All and all I would call them better than the last 2 batches of UA that have been released...in a surprisingly quick succession. I haven't even really had time to test the monk in any true game capacity.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Can you see a rat inside your pocket in the middle of a battle when you are surrounded by enemies? ;)
    Keep them in little bags made of cheesecloth and staple them to the inside of your shield. Bonus points for the irony of the name "cheesecloth".

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