The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BradyMTG's Avatar

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    Sep 2019

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    So strangely enough, the character I just started playing is a fledgling Vigilante trying to find her way to decide what kind of hero she wants to be if she wants to be one at all. As a Paladin/Warlock multiclass, this new Order actually seems perfect for the way she's developing as a character. Happens to be an Elf as well so crit-fishing might be the way she ends up mechanically. Pretty sweet. I do think the Oath on the whole isn't very flashy on it's own but paired with the right RP and multiclass and IMO I think I really like it.

  2. - Top - End - #182
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Wildarm's Avatar

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    I wouldnít do this... Iíd want those invocations...

    However you could make it work with shadow sorc for darkness
    I'm trying to find a decent way to build it without the Sorc/Warlock levels.

    Since this is UA, perhaps the Mystic might be something to use:

    Pally7/Soulblade1
    EA for feat - Defense FS

    Single level gives you Mastery of Darkness and Light which gives you 4x per day 10' darkness you can see through and two 1d8 finesse weapons that do psychic damage.

    Self contained Trivantage with expanded crit range and 3 attacks at level 8

    After that:

    2 more levels of Pally - Snags Haste and Maxes Dex
    3 Levels of Samurai - Bonus action advantage, Dual Wielding FS, Action surge

    Main issue with going Soulblade is you have to invest in Intelligence in order to MC(not specified in UA but assumed). This makes you a very very MAD build - 13 Str, 13 Int, 13 Cha, max Dex, some Con since you're melee.
    Last edited by Wildarm; 2019-09-20 at 01:52 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #183
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    May 2019

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildarm View Post
    I'm trying to find a decent way to build it without the Sorc/Warlock levels.

    Since this is UA, perhaps the Mystic might be something to use:

    Pally7/Soulblade1
    EA for feat - Defense FS

    Single level gives you Mastery of Darkness and Light which gives you 4x per day 10' darkness you can see through and two 1d8 finesse weapons that do psychic damage.

    Self contained Trivantage with expanded crit range and 3 attacks at level 8

    After that:

    2 more levels of Pally - Snags Haste and Maxes Dex
    3 Levels of Samurai - Bonus action advantage, Dual Wielding FS, Action surge

    Main issue with going Soulblade is you have to invest in Intelligence in order to MC(not specified in UA but assumed). This makes you a very very MAD build - 13 Str, 13 Int, 13 Cha, max Dex, some Con since you're melee.
    Is what you're looking to achieve here just getting advantage on demand? There's better ways to do that without effectively blinding the rest of the party, like familiars, flanking if in use, guiding bolt etc.
    For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge

    Feel free to message for any build requests or challenges

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Is what you're looking to achieve here just getting advantage on demand? There's better ways to do that without effectively blinding the rest of the party, like familiars, flanking if in use, guiding bolt etc.
    Or a Steed/Greater Steed like a Warhorse that can knock guys prone on attacks. Even better when you consider the fact that you can cast Haste on both yourself and your mount, so the mount is getting two attacks for the price of one. Consider how much damage a Rhinoceros gets when you give him an extra attack. Pretty sick combo.

  5. - Top - End - #185
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Nov 2015

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Is what you're looking to achieve here just getting advantage on demand? There's better ways to do that without effectively blinding the rest of the party, like familiars, flanking if in use, guiding bolt etc.
    I believe the goal is to maximize the number of critical hits by obtaining the maximum number of rolls per attack on a large number of attacks. In an extreme case on a build expressly designed to do so, this could very nearly guarantee that mighty deed activates for every round of combat after setup, which is the whole point.

    In a more modest approach, the same idea can be applied to a wide range of builds to achieve a fear or THP every second or third round, which is still one heck of a lot of functionality.

    Sadly Damon_Torís Rhinos need not apply... unless, I suppose, itís a really really strange campaign...
    Last edited by Spiritchaser; 2019-09-21 at 07:02 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    Sadly Damon_Torís Rhinos need not apply... unless, I suppose, itís a really really strange campaign...
    Why? It's not like you have to track it down and capture it, you summon the thing, it's literally a celestial being that's taking the form of a rhinoceros. If it bothers your DM that much that you're riding a rhinoceros in a Medieval Europe flavored game you could just call it a really freaking big angelic destrier, nothing about what the rhinoceros does is substantially different from a leveled up warhorse.

  7. - Top - End - #187
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Aug 2019

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Why? It's not like you have to track it down and capture it, you summon the thing, it's literally a celestial being that's taking the form of a rhinoceros. If it bothers your DM that much that you're riding a rhinoceros in a Medieval Europe flavored game you could just call it a really freaking big angelic destrier, nothing about what the rhinoceros does is substantially different from a leveled up warhorse.
    Heck, if it's a celestial rhino, what stops you from flavoring it as a unicorn? Isn't that what people back in medieval times thought they were, anyway? Its just a really buff, naturally armored unicorn. You are a hero, riding a buff unicorn just feels like another heroic action. Also, yeah its summoned, no issue with finding one, that's just the shape it takes.

  8. - Top - End - #188
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Nov 2015

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Why? It's not like you have to track it down and capture it, you summon the thing, it's literally a celestial being that's taking the form of a rhinoceros. If it bothers your DM that much that you're riding a rhinoceros in a Medieval Europe flavored game you could just call it a really freaking big angelic destrier, nothing about what the rhinoceros does is substantially different from a leveled up warhorse.
    No problem with any of that, but it is not eligible to proc mighty deed, which I believe to be the focus here


    Again: unless this is a REALLY odd campaign

    Rhinoceros Paladin!

  9. - Top - End - #189
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Nov 2013

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    No problem with any of that, but it is not eligible to proc mighty deed, which I believe to be the focus here


    Again: unless this is a REALLY odd campaign

    Rhinoceros Paladin!
    It's one of the explicitly stated Find Greater Steed options, so there really is nothing weird about it. And the Rhino can shove, which gives you Advantage, which increases your odds of proccing mighty deed.

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    It's one of the explicitly stated Find Greater Steed options, so there really is nothing weird about it. And the Rhino can shove, which gives you Advantage, which increases your odds of proccing mighty deed.
    That isnít what I am saying.

    I am saying that the rhino cannot proc mighty deed

    Again

    Notwithstanding a really strange campaign

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    That isnít what I am saying.

    I am saying that the rhino cannot proc mighty deed

    Again

    Notwithstanding a really strange campaign
    No one claimed, at any point, that a Rhino can proc mighty deed. It has been pointed out that they can shove your enemies for you (which helps YOU, not the rhino, to get the crit and, thus, proc mighty deed)

    And I still don't know what you find "really strange" about choosing one of the stated forms of Find Greater Steed.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    No problem with any of that, but it is not eligible to proc mighty deed, which I believe to be the focus here
    That's true, but neither can you get a Mighty Deed from the shove from Shield Mastery, or most of the other high-cost methods of gaining advantage being thrown around here.

    The point is, the Paladin already has on his spell list a non-concentration way to get advantage right there on its spell list, no feats, no multiclassing required.

  13. - Top - End - #193
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    No one claimed, at any point, that a Rhino can proc mighty deed. It has been pointed out that they can shove your enemies for you (which helps YOU, not the rhino, to get the crit and, thus, proc mighty deed)

    And I still don't know what you find "really strange" about choosing one of the stated forms of Find Greater Steed.
    Er... I find nothing strange about it. I was simply stating they the focus appeared to be maximum procs of mighty deed in the general case

    I implied that the rhino couldnít proc mighty deed

    Iíve opined that a campaign involving heroic rhino-dins WOULD be really strange.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Aug 2018

    Default Re: A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybren View Post
    Does no one else think that some of the eloquence mechanics are like, substantially more fiddly than 5e usually is? As a bonus action you get to force a save to give them disadvantage on the save? Free uses of bardic inspiration but you have a separate resource pool to use it? Odd.
    Yeah, I thought the same thing; fiddly. Iím inclined to remove the Int saving throw from Undeniable Logic if only to make it cleaner. Bardic Inspiration is a finite resource and the damage is minimal. So Iím alright with allowing auto-disadvantage. That way the mechanics for both choices mirror one another perfectly. Much easier to keep sorted out.

    I know someone made mention that this use of Undeniable Logic treads somewhat on Vicious Mockery. But again, Bardic Inspiration is a finite resource and Vicious Mockery is a cantrip, so Iím alright with that.

    As for Infectious Inspiration... Yeah, Iím not sure how Iíd clean that. But Iím instinctively not liking having to double track something.

    I thought I had once read somewhere that one of the core ideas behind 5e mechanics was to make things more streamlined. The College of Eloquence would probably need a little bit of refinement in that regard.

    That being said, I really do like the College of Eloquence! Itís great thematically for courtiers or heralds and would actually be a pretty good substitution for my College of Swords PC Iím running right now.

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