Could Belkar be descended from Serini?

[KorvinStarmast]

Isn't Sage Advice for 5e?

It's been with the game since the early 80's, AD&D 1e era. I have a few old dragon mags. The first one I find Sage advice in was #37(May 1980), and the #24 I have from 1979 does not have it, so I'll guess that somewhere around #30 (1980ish?) is when Sage Advice began ... and I don't think it has stopped being a thing.

[Squire Doodad]

It's been with the game since the early 80's, AD&D 1e era. I have a few old dragon mags. The first one I find Sage advice in was #37(May 1980), and the #24 I have from 1979 does not have it, so I'll guess that somewhere around #30 (1980ish?) is when Sage Advice began ... and I don't think it has stopped being a thing.

Of course, Sage advice also dates back millennia if you are talking about the right kind.

[Jasdoif]

Regardless, the information regarding the gates was encrypted, so she knew it was sensitive information.

Hmm....Now I'm wondering: Was it encrypted/encoded/etc. when she first wrote on it; or is the diary a copy of the original diary with encryption/encoding/etc. added on the relevant parts?

It could make a difference: The existence of a copy would make it less likely that Serini kept it on her person (as opposed to the original...or if she destroyed the original to hamper attempts to locate the diary through divination, she might have started a new diary)...which would increase the chance of Xykon getting it without killing Serini in the process.

[RatElemental]

Hmm....Now I'm wondering: Was it encrypted/encoded/etc. when she first wrote on it; or is the diary a copy of the original diary with encryption/encoding/etc. added on the relevant parts?

It could make a difference: The existence of a copy would make it less likely that Serini kept it on her person (as opposed to the original...or if she destroyed the original to hamper attempts to locate the diary through divination, she might have started a new diary)...which would increase the chance of Xykon getting it without killing Serini in the process.

She could have just asked Dorukan to cast erase for her on that section so she could fill it back in encrypted.

[hroþila]

She could have just asked Dorukan to cast erase for her on that section so she could fill it back in encrypted.

Certainly possible, but personally I think it's not likely that she got anyone else involved, someone who could have told him that having the coordinates in her diary was a terrible idea.

[RatElemental]

Certainly possible, but personally I think it's not likely that she got anyone else involved, someone who could have told him that having the coordinates in her diary was a terrible idea.

"Hey Dorukan, I wrote down the locations to all these places before we realized they were this earth shatteringly important. Can you cast some kind of spell to erase them from my journal so I don't have to burn the whole thing?"

[hroþila]

"Hey Dorukan, I wrote down the locations to all these places before we realized they were this earth shatteringly important. Can you cast some kind of spell to erase them from my journal so I don't have to burn the whole thing?"

Yes, but would she then go on to write them down again? That would be a certain level of deliberately deceitful headstrongness which I'm not sure she possesses/ed. Granted, we know next to nothing about her, but still, speaking from a strictly personal point of view I don't see it.

[Squire Doodad]

Yes, but would she then go on to write them down again? That would be a certain level of deliberately deceitful headstrongness which I'm not sure she possesses/ed. Granted, we know next to nothing about her, but still, speaking from a strictly personal point of view I don't see it.

I feel like she felt the need to have the locations, even if heavily encrypted, as her last resort in case something bad happened and she had to pass on the notebook to someone so they can help the rifts. She probably just left them in the tower as she went to go take care of something immensely important.

Ironic, no?

[Jasdoif]

She could have just asked Dorukan to cast erase for her on that section so she could fill it back in encrypted.

While true, nearly the entire diary scenario is comprised of "could"s right now. There's few points that have a really high likelihood of being fact:

• Lirian saying there were four other Gates, guarded by her friends, was enough information for Xykon to eventually find Serini's diary (this is what made me think of divinations)
• Xykon was able to "translate" the location of Dorukan's Gate by working backwards from a "translation" of Lirian's Gate's location
• Xykon was able to "decipher" locations for Soon's Gate and Girard's Gate from the diary (at this point, Kragoor's Gate is a bit lower down on the likelihood scale).

---

I feel like she felt the need to have the locations, even if heavily encrypted, as her last resort in case something bad happened and she had to pass on the notebook to someone so they can help the rifts.

Also, the monitoring devices lose a lot of utility without the other Scribblers having a way to locate the other Gates if they go down. That's how the Order got involved, after all.

[Squire Doodad]

While true, nearly the entire diary scenario is comprised of "could"s right now. There's few points that have a really high likelihood of being fact:

• Lirian saying there were four other Gates, guarded by her friends, was enough information for Xykon to eventually find Serini's diary (this is what made me think of divinations)
• Xykon was able to "translate" the location of Dorukan's Gate by working backwards from a "translation" of Lirian's Gate's location
• Xykon was able to "decipher" locations for Soon's Gate and Girard's Gate from the diary (at this point, Kragoor's Gate is a bit lower down on the likelihood scale).

---

Also, the monitoring devices lose a lot of utility without the other Scribblers having a way to locate the other Gates if they go down. That's how the Order got involved, after all.

I'd imagine Dorukan rigged a spell so that in the event a gate collapses, it broadcasts the location to the other people protecting the gates. So that would be how Shojo knew where to look (including when Lirian's gate blew), and Girard's family would have probably held their ground regardless to protect their own gates.

[RatElemental]

While true, nearly the entire diary scenario is comprised of "could"s right now. There's few points that have a really high likelihood of being fact:

• Lirian saying there were four other Gates, guarded by her friends, was enough information for Xykon to eventually find Serini's diary (this is what made me think of divinations)
• Xykon was able to "translate" the location of Dorukan's Gate by working backwards from a "translation" of Lirian's Gate's location
• Xykon was able to "decipher" locations for Soon's Gate and Girard's Gate from the diary (at this point, Kragoor's Gate is a bit lower down on the likelihood scale).

---

Also, the monitoring devices lose a lot of utility without the other Scribblers having a way to locate the other Gates if they go down. That's how the Order got involved, after all.

Honestly, I don't buy that knowing the location of Lirian's gate would help Xykon break the code. Cribs are really helpful when deciphering things, but that's part of the problem. It took Xykon years to break the code, and if you have a crib as big as literally 1/5th of what you're deciphering, there's very few codes that you couldn't break much, much sooner than that and the ones you couldn't you'd never break because they require a different strategy altogether.

As for the location itself, Xykon would 1: Have to know what coordinate system Serini was using (which might be one she made up and included in the encrypted section). 2: Know the coordinates of Lirian's gate in that system. And 3: Know where in the ciphertext the information he knew was (trial and error can help a little bit with this step, if you otherwise know what you're doing).

[Jasdoif]

Honestly, I don't buy that knowing the location of Lirian's gate would help Xykon break the code. Cribs are really helpful when deciphering things, but that's part of the problem. It took Xykon years to break the code, and if you have a crib as big as literally 1/5th of what you're deciphering, there's very few codes that you couldn't break much, much sooner than that and the ones you couldn't you'd never break because they require a different strategy altogether.

I did notice he used "translate" instead of "decipher" in Start of Darkness. My theory is that the diary's actual entries didn't pinpoint the rifts but did contain the occasional passing reference to a geographical feature or landmark or something, such that Xykon was able to very slowly piece together very vague ranges...and if the Order of the Scribble went from Dorukan's Gate to Lirian's Gate, Xykon would have to follow the steps backwards to get to Dorukan's Gate.

Which, you know, is still just a big mountain of "could"s that sounds nice.

As for the location itself, Xykon would 1: Have to know what coordinate system Serini was using (which might be one she made up and included in the encrypted section). 2: Know the coordinates of Lirian's gate in that system. And 3: Know where in the ciphertext the information he knew was (trial and error can help a little bit with this step, if you otherwise know what you're doing).

I tend to agree...as hilarious as it would be, the diary probably did not have "ziggerfau-gerrrnuf, ah-ah, pahoy-hoy" scribbled in a margin.

Oddly enough, Rogar may have the answer here: If Xykon deciphered the locations via a Decipher Script check as outlined in the 3.5 Complete Adventurer, he would have been unable to do so before the conversion to 3.5 in strip 1...which is why he was only able to determine one location in Start of Darkness, which as a prequel was still 3.0 .

[Squire Doodad]

Oddly enough, Rogar may have the answer here: If Xykon deciphered the locations via a Decipher Script check as outlined in the 3.5 Complete Adventurer, he would have been unable to do so before the conversion to 3.5 in strip 1...which is why he was only able to determine one location in Start of Darkness, which as a prequel was still 3.0 .

That's...unnervingly compelling. Like that honestly feels like a good and solid explanation instead of it just being rampant speculation that sounds pretty.

[RatElemental]

I tend to agree...as hilarious as it would be, the diary probably did not have "ziggerfau-gerrrnuf, ah-ah, pahoy-hoy" scribbled in a margin.

I... don't understand the reference.

[Jasdoif]

I... don't understand the reference.

Exactly o_o

[KorvinStarmast]

She probably just left them in the tower as she went to go take care of something immensely important.

Maybe she was old enough that when she went to the market, she got distracted and forgot how to get home? (Happened to my father in law in his mid 70's. Left the house for a hair cut and could not find his way home for half of a day).

It took Xykon years to break the code,

Xykon is a Sorcerer, not a Wizard. As is shown in SoD, he's not big on the INT, is big on the CHA. Code breaking would seem to me to be an kind of Intelligence based skill check, or a specialty needing skill points in it to succeed. One of the ways that Redcloack is a complementary character to him on their team is Redcloak's intelligence (and of course Wisdom, being a Cleric).

But I like Rogar's estimate better.

[The Pilgrim]

Honestly, I don't buy that knowing the location of Lirian's gate would help Xykon break the code. Cribs are really helpful when deciphering things, but that's part of the problem. It took Xykon years to break the code, and if you have a crib as big as literally 1/5th of what you're deciphering, there's very few codes that you couldn't break much, much sooner than that and the ones you couldn't you'd never break because they require a different strategy altogether.

Historically, it took three years for a profesional military cryptanalyst to break the Grand Chiffre. After figuring out a small sequence of words. Previously, no one had been able to break it for two and a half centuries.

Sure, Serini's code will probably be nowere as complicated as the Grand Chiffre. But neither is Xykon a professional cryptanalyst, or someone particullary well suited for it.

[D.One]

Xykon is a Sorcerer, not a Wizard. As is shown in SoD, he's not big on the INT, is big on the CHA. Code breaking would seem to me to be an kind of Intelligence based skill check, or a specialty needing skill points in it to succeed.

Xykon is smarter than he looks.

[Kantaki]

Xykon is smarter than he looks.

Well, yes?
He has to be, seeing that he looks like he's literally brainless.
Cause he's a skeleton.

[Jasdoif]

Historically, it took three years for a profesional military cryptanalyst to break the Grand Chiffre. After figuring out a small sequence of words. Previously, no one had been able to break it for two and a half centuries.

Sure, Serini's code will probably be nowere as complicated as the Grand Chiffre. But neither is Xykon a professional cryptanalyst, or someone particullary well suited for it.

I was thinking maybe everything wasn't encoded, but each article's first word (maybe each word's first letter?) was an entry for a diagraphic...something or other, and each pair was the encoding for a piece of the coordinate you chose. Perhaps it's more interesting than really practical, but it should evade detection enough that, when mixed with actual diary segments...you'd be hard-pressed, absent some clue or other, to identify that your coordinates could be there at all.

[Squire Doodad]

I was thinking maybe everything wasn't encoded, but each article's first word (maybe each word's first letter?) was an entry for a diagraphic...something or other, and each pair was the encoding for a piece of the coordinate you chose. Perhaps it's more interesting than really practical, but it should evade detection enough that, when mixed with actual diary segments...you'd be hard-pressed, absent some clue or other, to identify that your coordinates could be there at all.

Serini probably did intend for the info to be eventually deciphered - after all, you can't keep that eternal rift gate safe forever, you'll die of old age sooner or later.

[Jasdoif]

Serini probably did intend for the info to be eventually deciphered - after all, you can't keep that eternal rift gate safe forever, you'll die of old age sooner or later.

Well, maybe you can't keep it safe personally, barring some drastic action; but Soon had the Sapphire Guard, Girard had his family....It's unclear who Serini would have intended to pass the diary and code on to, especially after Xykon eliminated Lirian (who'd have easily outlived Serini in terms of natural lifespan), but it's entirely possible.

[Fyraltari]

Serini probably did intend for the info to be eventually deciphered - after all, you can't keep that eternal rift gate safe forever, you'll die of old age sooner or later.

Thats’s probably why she made her dungeon complex so that, according to Oona, unless you kill too many of them the monsters come back even after some died. Shojo said that Serininfilled the tombs with monsters and then, unlike her comrades went back to adventure so it seems that Kraagor’s Tomb does not need anyone to oversee it in order to be defended.

[RatElemental]

Dorukan's seems to be the only one that was contingent on its guardian surviving forever. But, as a wizard, Dorukan was also the only one in a position to actually pull that off, there's ways to slow the aging process using epic magic, and in pathfinder at least ways for wizards in particular to stop the aging process altogether, might be something similar in 3.5.

[HorizonWalker]

Really? What do Pathfinder wizards get to do to stave off aging?

[The Pilgrim]

Lichdom stops aging. :P

[HorizonWalker]

Lichdom stops aging. :P

Well, yeah, but turning yourself into an undead monster is generally on the Evil side of the street, and not really an option for Good wizards, which Dorukan presumably is.

[The Pilgrim]

Given the visible aging effects on Dorukan, it means he had no means available to stop aging. Even though he was an epic wizard dating an epic druid. (And yes, I take for granted that he would have wanted to remain youth, if only to match his elven lover's apparent age).

[D.One]

Well, yeah, but turning yourself into an undead monster is generally on the Evil side of the street, and not really an option for Good wizards, which Dorukan presumably is.

Well, there's the Extended Life Span epic feat, and I'm sure magic can help, too, without all the becoming an undead abomination part.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Potions of longevity work too.