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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default So, while playing SWTOR, I thought about how the game represents "Good"

    I feel like any character can fight and prevent evil (even an evil character), but in SWTOR, there were two cases in particular that stood out to me as representations of how a good character should be played.
    I'm going to describe them in spoilers, so any SWTOR players who haven't reached these points can ignore them for now.
    First with the Jedi Knight:
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    At one point in Shadow of Revan, the knight is given a quest to do random acts of kindness, all with the understanding that they won't be credited or remembered for it. They aren't using their lightsaber as a weapon, they're using it as a tool to clear debris.


    The second comes in the form of the Imperial Agent:
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    Darth Jadus faked his own death, and has assumed control of a superweapon he intends to use against both the Republic and the Empire, in a reign of terror. The weapon needs two keys to use- he has one, you have the other. As a non-force user, Jadus could easily kill you. He instead offers you a place at his side, so you can help his dream become reality. If you take him up on his offer, you can set him up for arrest later. Doing so would kill countless innocents. Or, you can choose to foil his plans, fight for survival, and blow up his ship... You save everyone planet side, but you kill everyone on the ship.
    There's a third option, though, that I wasn't aware of. You can actually talk Darth Jadus into surrendering without a fight, and if you're sneaky, you can slip past nearly every other enemy on the ship. You can get through his entire dreadnought without hurting anyone- aside from one person who attacks you after the fact, and gives you no other option. Talking Darth Jadus down takes a minimum of 8 minutes of dialogue, and requires the Agent to swallow their own pride (and the player to pass up the opportunity to talk smack to a Sith Lord). If you succeed, you not only prevent the superweapon from firing on random planets- you also save just about everyone on board Jadus's ship.


    What I could I take from this to improve my own campaigns, and the good aligned characters that I play?
    Last edited by MonkeySage; 2019-09-18 at 09:36 PM.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    False God's Avatar

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    Default Re: So, while playing SWTOR, I thought about how the game represents "Good"

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    What I could I take from this to improve my own campaigns, and the good aligned characters that I play?
    Ultimately, both of these situations show the hero doing something that they will not be rewarded for. The Sith do not value talking people down from a fight, and the Jedi tend to do a lot of mundane helpful stuff that noone ever remembers them for.

    To paraphrase Dr Who: Goodness is not goodness that seeks advantage. Good is good in the final hour, in the deepest pit without hope, without witness, without reward.

    Here, lets keep quoting The Doctor:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor
    Iím not trying to win. Iím not doing this because I want to beat someone, or because I hate someone, or because I want to blame someone. Itís not because itís fun. God knows itís not because itís easy. Itís not even because it works because it hardly ever does.. I DO WHAT I DO BECAUSE ITíS RIGHT! Because itís decent! And above all, itís kind! Itís just that.. Just kind. If I run away today, good people will die. If I stand and fight, some of them might live. Maybe not many, maybe not for long. Hey, you know, maybe thereís no point to any of this at all. But itís the best I can do. So Iím going to do it. And I will stand here doing it until it kills me.
    Just, ya know, be careful your party members aren't The Master.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: So, while playing SWTOR, I thought about how the game represents "Good"

    Here's another quote about good from the comics here itself. "People forget how crucial it is to keep trying even if they screw it up now and then... [I]ts the struggle that matters... [W]hen you blow it and get back up on the horse and try again." Reminding your players them that the sincerity of their actions matters, and that even in the face of their actions not having the consequences they like, that as long as they put aside for a moment their own self worth.

    In addition: "Doin' good- sometimes even just seein' other people do good- feels good." Letting your players see the genuine happiness of others benefiting from their acts, even if it's something they never get recognized for is important too.
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    Default Re: So, while playing SWTOR, I thought about how the game represents "Good"

    Light Side/Dark Side dialogue options aren't always... Good/Evil in SWTOR.

    Take for instance the Flashpoint "Kaon Under Siege".
    Imperial: One of the NPCs are bitten by a Rakghoul and is starting to turn. The Dark Side dialogue option is to let him turn because "this will be interesting", the Light Side option is to kill him before he turns because "it's the merciful thing to do".
    Republic: Same scenario, but flipped. The Dark Side option is to kill him and put him out of his misery before his terrible transformation into a flesh-eating monster. The Light Side option is "sorry, it's too late for you" and do nothing.

    See how same choices are rewarded differently? Most of that is because Imperial characters often earn Light Side points in dialogue options when choosing altruism, empathy, and in general putting the interests of the Empire before your own (such as taking people captive for "enhanced interrogation" earning Light Side points, and I think we can all agree on that torture is Not-Good). Republic characters on the other hand earn Dark Side points for selfishness, violence, and on occassion unlawful actions (not always but sometimes).

    SWTOR is not exactly a perfect recipe to follow to get ideas for how to be Good or Evil. You can play an Imperial Agent who is very Light Side but still would be considered a horrible person and/or Evil. Some of it is because SWTOR is limited in its dialogue options so it can't account for clever players, and because it doesn't dwelve too deep into nuances.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: So, while playing SWTOR, I thought about how the game represents "Good"

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    What I could I take from this to improve my own campaigns, and the good aligned characters that I play?
    Seems rather obvious: Include third options in your campaigns. And make them obvious enough the players actually find them.

    Include a NPC who is an authority on ethics and will steer the players in the right direction if they ask her for advice about something that seems to be a trolley problem.

    Most importantly: Make it clear that you don't deal in trolley problems. From reading the forums, I get the impression there's DMs who like to do that to paladins, especially.


    For playing yourself ... just assume there is a third option. Plan accordingly. The nice thing about pen&paper is that if you very stubbornly believe that there is a way to save everyone with minimum killing, the DM might come to share your opinion.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: So, while playing SWTOR, I thought about how the game represents "Good"

    What Faily said:

    Light side is mainly about empathy and serenity and aiding the greater good (which is often good). Dark side is mainly going after one's passions and raging against the system and working for one's self (which is often evil).

    Plus the philosophy of the Sith and Jedi are just two side of the same coin, and many (Grey) Jedi in the Expanded Universe consider their teachings incomplete without considering the other. Humanity is nothing without compassion and helping each other. But you simply cannot ignore one's feelings, that is why many Jedi are just bound to fail at their extremist philosophies.

    But I feel both D&D's and Star Wars' philosophy systems are dated, but Star Wars offers a lot more debt I feel. Ultimatively your group and you determine what kind of philosophical backwork your campaign will use. So you have to adapt accordingly, with you as a player having the most freedom (as the DM has to be self-consistent with its PCs).

    Are you doing an 80s style Sword and Sorcery where slaying monstrous humanoids by the dozen just because they are orcs is considered Good, then you should RP in that vain.

    If you are doing a Star Wars RPG where using the force on a humanoid is considered worth Dark Side points (no matter how many lives you save with that), then you subscribe to that philosophy. (or any other systems that reward or penalize special actions with philosophical backdrop like Warhammer's magic corrupting its user or The Dark Eye having unreplenishable magic points so using that to further someone else's live is truly altruistic because you get nothing for investing permanent ressources).

    If you RP a morally grey iteration of different shades of grey (not the terrible book!) like what was popular the last two decades, or even if you go away from moral systems (because only a Sith deals in absolutes) you have to adapt your characters as well.

    I have a pretty zealous (halfling) paladin that would welcome to smite any evil he crosses. But he has a soft spot for (accepted) humanoid races whom he randomly gives second chances even if letting the random orc #412 live nets less life loss than accepting the gnome necromancer could redeem himself. In a system without the moral backup of "being Good" he would be considered a radical extremist, in Star Wars his "crusade" is fuelled by PURE EMOTION (which gives you no clear indicator where he stand on dark/light side) and in Warhammer he would be the usual Sigmarite Finally in standard media that does its best not to sub to the idea of good and evil, he would be as weird as the tonal changes in the last few episodes of Game of Thrones.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: So, while playing SWTOR, I thought about how the game represents "Good"

    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
    Light Side/Dark Side dialogue options aren't always... Good/Evil in SWTOR.

    Take for instance the Flashpoint "Kaon Under Siege".
    Imperial: One of the NPCs are bitten by a Rakghoul and is starting to turn. The Dark Side dialogue option is to let him turn because "this will be interesting", the Light Side option is to kill him before he turns because "it's the merciful thing to do".
    Republic: Same scenario, but flipped. The Dark Side option is to kill him and put him out of his misery before his terrible transformation into a flesh-eating monster. The Light Side option is "sorry, it's too late for you" and do nothing.

    See how same choices are rewarded differently? Most of that is because Imperial characters often earn Light Side points in dialogue options when choosing altruism, empathy, and in general putting the interests of the Empire before your own (such as taking people captive for "enhanced interrogation" earning Light Side points, and I think we can all agree on that torture is Not-Good). Republic characters on the other hand earn Dark Side points for selfishness, violence, and on occassion unlawful actions (not always but sometimes).

    SWTOR is not exactly a perfect recipe to follow to get ideas for how to be Good or Evil. You can play an Imperial Agent who is very Light Side but still would be considered a horrible person and/or Evil. Some of it is because SWTOR is limited in its dialogue options so it can't account for clever players, and because it doesn't dwelve too deep into nuances.
    Yeah- It's mainly those two scenarios that stood out to me the most. The Knight and Agent are by far my favorite stories in the game, and I can't imagine going dark with the agent. ^_^ The Agent's choice in the above scenario especially- while light and dark may not always map well to good and evil, I'd say putting your life on the line and sacrificing your pride in order to save as many lives as possible, especially followed by a guarantee that the people on that ship aren't to become experiments, is pretty solidly "Good", and I'm wishing I took that option.
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    Default Re: So, while playing SWTOR, I thought about how the game represents "Good"

    My favorite story was the Sith Inquisitor.

    Shame that game got wrecked by KOTET and KOTFE.
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