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2019-09-18, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
One of the more iconic images - to me, at least - of a D&D Wizard is plinking away with good ol' Magic Missile. Heck, they even made it an at-will in 4e, which I think was a good decision.
So why did they push it back up to a 1st level spell for 5e? I'm aware that there probably isn't a publicly available answer to that... but I'm still curious.
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2019-09-18, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
The same reason we do anything in DND.
Its tradition.
Seriously, that's why. Its a first level spell. So its not a cantrip. Its I C O N I C.Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2019-09-18, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
'Cuz it's auto-hit.
Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2019-09-18, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Cynical answer.
Balanced answer.
I've tried to downgrade Magic Missile into a cantrip, and it's hard to do that while maintaining its auto-hit nature. To be balanced, it ends up doing something like 1d3 damage a tier, which is... Not very impressive.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2019-09-19, 02:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
I've seen tables allow a Cantrip version of Magic Missile.
It auto hits but each missile does 1 damage. When you get higher levels, you get additional missiles that each do 1 damage.
Wizards can't really afford to always be plunking MM cantrip as it doesn't do enough damage to stop something from walking up and killing the wizard... But when you need to do damage to pick off a weakling it's amazing.5e e10
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2019-09-19, 03:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
I argue that Magic Missile was actually stronger in 4e, because of the minion mechanic.
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2019-09-19, 04:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
The no-save auto hit and multi-target scaling prevents it from being a cantrip, IMO. Being able to just ignore cover can be very useful at low levels, depending on your DM.
My understand is that, at least in previous editions, nothing stopped you from sending magic missiles around corners if you have a way to "see" around the corner. This goes up there with permanent, invisible fog clouds in terms of cheese, so YMMV.
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2019-09-19, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Line of Effect is a thing starting from 3E (5E calls it "A Clear Path to the Target"). Having line of sight is immaterial; if you can't draw an unobstructed line from the caster to the target, the spell can't be cast. Magic Missile is still subject to the same limitations, even if fluffwise it can robotech a bit.
You can't ignore cover with MM if the cover would block LoE. (But you do ignore cover bonuses if the cover isn't enough to stop you from targeting.)
It would work for AD&D 2e and earlier though (IIRC, unless there is some general rule I missed), because those versions only require sight.
(Of course, I think you were thinking about 3.5e, because you mentioned "permanent invisible fog clouds", which requires the poorly-worded Invisible Spell metamagic to pull off.)
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2019-09-19, 05:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Yeah, that sounds about right. I have played or ran every edition between AD&D and 5e, so sometimes the rules get jumbled.
(I was under the impression that "permanent invisible fog clouds" trick worked off the fact that a conjured fog cloud is an actual, touchable object, and therefor a viable target for the invisibility spell. I've never used them as a player, only as a DM for high level dungeons.)
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2019-09-19, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
As people have mentioned, the auto-hit of Magic Missile mixed with the auto scaling makes it extremely difficult to balance. If we did make it a cantrip, what would the damage be like? 1d4+1 per bolt, and an extra bolt every time your cantrips scale? Well, now you have an auto-hitting Eldritch Blast that deals between 2 and 5 damage per bolt. Making the damage 1d3 makes it a bit too weak, while 1d4 is still just a little bit too strong.
But lets see what happens if we make the damage a flat 1d4 Force damage per bolt. What happens with it in the hands of different classes? Well, because its a cantrip, Sorcerers can cast it back to back with Quick Spell, kind of like how they can with Eldritch Blast, only now its an auto hit. Evocation Wizards can add their Intelligence modifier to it. Bards will love to take it because free easy damage. And Warlocks probably won't bother with it cause they have Eldritch Blast. And any class mix that focuses on maximizing how many Eldritch Blasts you can use in a single round will benefit from this.
Now how about counterplay? Since cantrips can be used at all times, they tend to be an all or nothing affair. If you miss your attack roll, it does nothing. If the target makes their saving throw, the cantrip does nothing. But what about magic missile? Well, the normal spell requires you to see your target, and can be stopped by a Shield spell. So if it were made into a cantrip, the only way to avoid it would be to spend a 1st level or higher spell, be unseen, have immunity to cantrips, or have immunity to Force damage. Outside of that, this cantrip will always have some sort of effect, even if it is only 1 point of damage.Never let the fluff of a class define the personality of a character. Let Clerics be Atheist, let Barbarians be cowardly or calm, let Druids hate nature, and let Wizards know nothing about the arcane
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2019-09-19, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Everyone is right on with auto hit being the problem. Even at 1 damage per missile, it being a cantrip opens up the opportunity for Magic Initiate interactions with things such as Hex, Hunter's Mark, etc that yield damage on each hit. Dropping 3d6 auto hit without expending a slot is a lot.
Take away auto hit and it is not really Magic Missile anymore. 1st level seems fair. Not a daily use thing, but being able to guarantee 3d4+3 damage on a fleeing enemy at level 1 can be huge.
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2019-09-19, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
It was pretty clear they were trying to distance themselves from 4e as much as possible when they made 5e: any change made by 4e was reverted by default. Even good changes. What little survived was carefully renamed and hidden as much as possible, but 4e's magic missile didn't make the cut.
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2019-09-19, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
5e e10
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2019-09-19, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Why doesn't 1d4+1 damage per tier work as scaling damage?
That's an average of 3 damage, firebolt is an average of 4.5 damage, but can miss. if firebolt hits about 2/3 of the time, that's equivalent damage, right? Are you expected to miss more than 1/3 of your attacks with a cantrip?
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2019-09-19, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Firebolt does 5.5 damage on a hit. Average hit rate is on an 8, for 65%, or 3.575 DPR per tier.
Magic Missile at 1d4+1 does 3.5 on a hit, which always happens. So at first blush they seem equal.
But here's the thing-Magic Missile has 1) a better damage type, 2) multiple missiles instead of one shot, and 3) auto-hits.
Each of those merits a reduction in power-ESPECIALLY number 2.
So, Force instead of Fire, drop it to just 1d4.
Auto-hits is a nice "rider"-or at least equivalent to one-so drop it to 1d3.
And multiple missiles means 1d2.
I wouldn't be overly upset at the balance if it stayed 1d3, but it just doesn't feel good.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2019-09-19, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Cost 25 years ago I read dungeon let's see if I can recreate it.
You open the door and 30 feet ahead of you are 2 Zombies. That is what you see
In reality the room went this way
30 feet ahead were the reflection of two zombies in a mirror.
The corridor took a 90-degree turn with the mirror propped at a 45 degree angle approximately in the corner. The zombies were 20 feet down the corridor pass the 90-degree turn
The mage shot magic missiles into the mirror since the mirror was an inanimate object it took no damage from the magic missiles.
If an actual Arrow, Club or anything that could break the mirror was tossed at it you heard the breaking(glass being a rare subject you couldn't say glass). The correct response was the zombies disappear
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2019-09-20, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2017
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Heck, make it a cantrip but make it shoot just one missile, increasing +1 damage at every tier (1d4+2 at 5, 1d4+3 at 11 etc)
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2019-09-20, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
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2019-09-20, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
I'm sure in the Next playtest I tried once, it was. I remember using a d4, but I don't remember if it had a +1 or not.
Odds are as above, the more content was added to the game the more it was required to raise it as a spell for balance.
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2019-09-20, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
It's still a 1st level spell, just because you don't have literally infinite casts doesn't mean you can't hit people with it a lot over the course of an adventuring day. It's not like you have drastically less casts of magic missile than before.
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2019-09-20, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
I mean, high-level Wizards can sorta make it a Cantrip if they want to, with the ability to pump it with spell slots for more oomph if they want missile spam.
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2019-09-20, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
HM is only for Weapon Attacks so it doesn’t interact with MM. However, Hex could work with MM, RAW, depending on how you read it, since Hex doesn’t refer to Weapon Attacks or Spell Attacks (game terms), but states “you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack.”
I’m not saying anyone needs to play it that way, but MM is an “attack” in common English (and “attack” used this way in the PHB, as well as being used as a game term), and, as you said yourself, it (auto-)hits. So MM could work with Hex, RAW.
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2019-09-20, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Compared to other cantrips that have come out, there's nothing too strong about a Cantrip version.
1d4+1 at 1st level, auto hit, etc. Each tier gives an additional missile for the same damage.
At max, it's 4d4+4 at 17th level?I Am A: Neutral Good Half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian (2nd/1st Level)
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2019-09-21, 02:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-09-21, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
That could be argued, though, I imagine, additionally, you’d need to determine if fire can “hit” someone. I could easily be convinced that to say “I was burned by fire” is a logical statement, however, I’m not sure I’d be using the word correctly if I said “I was ‘hit’ by fire.”
MM is described as ‘darts’, which can logically be used to hit something. I’m not sure fire expanding from a point, but which lacks any sort of force or explosion, can be described as a hit.Last edited by RSP; 2019-09-21 at 07:02 AM.
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2019-09-21, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-09-21, 07:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-09-21, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
Shove and Grapple are special melee attacks (so they count as attacks even with an attack roll), but they still use an opposed ability check, so they never actually "hit" or "miss". Instead, you "succeed" or "fail".
This is supported by the SAC:
Does a grapple or a shove trigger the Tempest cleric’s Wrath of the Storm or a Battle Master’s Riposte? The answer to both questions is no. The grappling and shoving options (PH, 195) don’t result in a hit or a miss.
—Sage Advice Compendium (2019), p.11
As for the general case on what counts as an attack, refer to PHB-pp.193–194:
MAKING AN ATTACK
Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location.
2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.
(And if somehow there's a game effect that relies on an attack roll but explicitly calls it out as "not being an attack", then it's not an attack either because specific beats general. But absent that specific clause the general rule applies.)
Also note what constitutes a "hit" is also implicitly defined under the stepwise procedure for "Making an Attack".
Edit2: Shadowmonked.
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2019-09-21, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
"If there’s ever any question whether something you’re
doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you’re making an attack roll, you’re making an attack."
Magic missile is not an attack. You could make a case that, since shoving and grappling are defined as a "special melee attack", this is a "specific beats general" situation and they count as attacks even though they do not require attack rolls, but there is no rule support for magic missiles as attacks.
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2019-09-21, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Why Isn't Magic Missile A Cantrip?
And here's a JC tweet that supports the above:
@Kassuhday making a loud noise doesn't end the invisibility spell. Attacking does. Does knocking over a lamp count as an attack?
— The Inexperienced DM (@inexperienceddm) February 28, 2017
An attack involves an attack roll or doing something that the rules call an attack, like grappling or shoving. #DnD https://t.co/ccEfVUTaL1
— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) February 28, 2017
@JeremyECrawford if I cast Magic Missile at a Hexed target, does it take an extra 1d6 necrotic, or 3d6 extra? or none, because Magic Missile is not an ‘attack’?
— Mavalanche (@aus_maverick) December 8, 2016
Magic missile isn’t an attack. #DnD https://t.co/i7veBQatmX
— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) December 8, 2016