The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayem View Post
    Or if you want to get Laconic. Space-Sparta.
    ... well played.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    Speaking of which, are Romulans also super strong?
    I'm not sure it ever gets addressed. Most Romulans seem to consider punching people beneath them.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    Yeah, Klingons are just completely ridiculous, as are all these ultra-warrior species that just go on about honour, battle, honourable battles and battles of honour ALL. THE. TIME. There is no way that species wouldn't have battled itself to extinction ages ago unless they breed like bacteria, or ever developed technology because everyone just keeps breaking stuff.

    And yes, the strutting and loudmouthing just makes them seem incredibly insecure.
    Except they donít actually go to fill out war and genocide in TOS, itís only that they threaten a lot. There are plenty of big warrior cultures among humans. For example, remember Rome...wait Romulus Romulans....nah nothing there

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Something about these two quotes doesn't add up....
    If you watch enough Enterprise and Voyager doesnít that count as watching TNG and TOS cause they rehash all the plots

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    There is something to be said about tradition, and Vulcans obviously value traditions very highly.

    I mean.. Logic is not the ultimate determiner of everything. You can use logic with two different sets of values and priorities and end up with two different outcome.
    Where does tradition fit into a culture supposedly founded on pure reason and science?

    Obviously (to anyone who knows anything called ďlogicĒ) logic alone canít prove a single set of ethical values and social-political priorities, but Vulcans, and Star Trek, has a problem acknowledging that....

    If the Vulcans did, theyíd basically have to cease to exist. Gone in a puff of logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    That WOULD be an interesting angle; a bunch of angry douchebros posturing and shouting in defiance of their encroaching irrelevance, thoroughly deconstructing the idea of a warrior culture.

    Klingon #1: "Imma great warrior!"
    Klingon #2: "Okay."
    Klingon #1: "Seriously, I fight really good!"
    Klingon #2: "Yes, thank you."
    Klingon #1: "I took seven heads in the battle of-"
    Klingon #2: "That's nice."
    Klingon #1: "I fought like a-"
    Klingon #2: "Yes, yes, yes, now let me fill out the tax return in peace."

    A shame it isn't canon.
    Donít you realize Star Trekís future doesnít have taxes. Thatís why itís a utopia.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2019-09-20 at 09:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Where does tradition fit into a culture supposedly founded on pure reason and science?

    Obviously (to anyone who knows anything called ďlogicĒ) logic alone canít prove a single set of ethical values and social-political priorities, but Vulcans, and Star Trek, has a problem acknowledging that....

    If the Vulcans did, theyíd basically have to cease to exist. Gone in a puff of logic.



    Donít you realize Star Trekís future doesnít have taxes. Thatís why itís a utopia.
    The Ferengi beg to differ. :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    eek Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    The Ferengi beg to differ. :)
    Theirs is a culture of pursuing wealth and of ignorant naked women who never argue or breakup with their mates. The women are willing to go to extreme lengths to improve the quality of their food

    The Ferengi have a very different concept of utopia
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2019-09-20 at 09:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Discovery, Enterprise and now I'm watching Season 2 of Voyager.
    Are you trying to watch them in "worst to best order" or something?



    In any case, I don't know how you managed to watch the show that started with an openly racist Vulcan that was straight up furious about having to serve with inferior humans and conclude that all Vulcans have no emotion.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Are you trying to watch them in "worst to best order" or something?



    In any case, I don't know how you managed to watch the show that started with an openly racist Vulcan that was straight up furious about having to serve with inferior humans and conclude that all Vulcans have no emotion.
    What on earth are you talking about? I happen to enjoy Star Trek and I don't have any issue with the characters at all.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    In any case, I don't know how you managed to watch the show that started with an openly racist Vulcan that was straight up furious about having to serve with inferior humans and conclude that all Vulcans have no emotion.
    That is a head-scratcher. In Enterprise alone there are so many episodes which kind of feel like anti-Vulcan propaganda written by dedicated anti-intellectuals about how them Vulcans are all hypocrites with only the facade of Reason, to the point that they needed to do a whole story arc in the last season just to fix the sense of continuity going into TOS.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2019-09-20 at 10:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? I happen to enjoy Star Trek and I don't have any issue with the characters at all.
    Pretty much every Star Trek fan has Voyager and Enterprise in the bottom two slots when ranking the various series, unless they've watched Discovery (after Enterprise, a pretty vocal chunk of the fanbase simply refuse to watch Discovery in the first place). Most agree that VOY and ENT have some stellar episodes, but any listing of "worst episodes" will feature the two series heavily. This is because both feature inconsistent characterization, heavy script recycling, and little respect for the setting.



    More directly on subject, T'Pol treated openly showed contempt for humans in the early seasons, to the point where she insisted that humans should have been banned from space travel entirely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Pretty much every Star Trek fan has Voyager and Enterprise in the bottom two slots when ranking the various series, unless they've watched Discovery (after Enterprise, a pretty vocal chunk of the fanbase simply refuse to watch Discovery in the first place). Most agree that VOY and ENT have some stellar episodes, but any listing of "worst episodes" will feature the two series heavily. This is because of both feature inconsistent characterization, heavy script recycling, and little respect for the setting.



    More directly on the subject, T'Pol treated openly showed contempt for humans in the early seasons, to the point where she insisted that humans should have been banned from space travel entirely.
    I like all series equally. I don't really have a favourite nor least favourite Star Trek series. So I fail to see what your complaint is.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2019-09-20 at 10:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I like all series equally. I don't really have a favourite nor least favourite Star Trek series. So I fail to see what your complaint is.
    You have to first watch TOS and TNG to get jaded enough to dislike Voyager and Enterprise for its alleged sins. Bonus for watching DS9 and seeing how you can deconstruct and twist everything about Star Trek and keep it awesome.

    Discovery hatred is on a whole other level, and now no Star Trek thread can go for more than a page before someone who never actually watched Discovery nevertheless swoops in to complain about this series.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    You have to first watch TOS and TNG to get jaded enough to dislike Voyager and Enterprise for its alleged sins. Bonus for watching DS9 and seeing how you can deconstruct and twist everything about Star Trek and keep it awesome.

    Discovery hatred is on a whole other level, and now no Star Trek thread can go for more than a page before someone who never actually watched Discovery nevertheless swoops in to complain about this series.
    What TOS stand for?

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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    What TOS stand for?
    The Original Series. The show with Kirk, Spock, etc..

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Well regardless I'm still going to like Discovery and Voyager even if I watch the Original Star Trek, The Next Generation and including Deep Space Nine. Sorry but not sorry.

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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well regardless I'm still going to like Discovery and Voyager even if I watch the Original Star Trek, The Next Generation and including Deep Space Nine. Sorry but not sorry.
    Hey, I didn't say anything

    I loved Discovery, and Deep Space Nine. Enterprise and Voyager had their great moments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Hey, I didn't say anything

    I loved Discovery, and Deep Space Nine. Enterprise and Voyager had their great moments.
    I didn't say you did. Only a few members did.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I like all series equally. I don't really have a favourite nor least favourite Star Trek series. So I fail to see what your complaint is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well regardless I'm still going to like Discovery and Voyager even if I watch the Original Star Trek, The Next Generation and including Deep Space Nine. Sorry but not sorry.
    Other people are allowed to like things you don't, and dislike (sometimes greatly) things that you like. They will often even have valid reasons for doing so.

    And call me crazy, but their complaint seems to be that the main character in one of the main series is racist, and that that's a horrendously unappealing character flaw that I shouldn't even have to begin to explain why someone would have an issue with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    And call me crazy, but their complaint seems to be that the main character in one of the main series is racist, and that that's a horrendously unappealing character flaw that I shouldn't even have to begin to explain why someone would have an issue with.
    To be fair, the humans in Enterprise and even TOS tend to be terribly racist toward the Vulcans, as well. Heck, some of the stuff McCoy says to Spock would be grounds for termination today, never mind hundreds of years in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    To be fair, the humans in Enterprise and even TOS tend to be terribly racist toward the Vulcans, as well. Heck, some of the stuff McCoy says to Spock would be grounds for termination today, never mind hundreds of years in the future.
    Perfectly fair.

    Honestly, I've only seen most of the original series, and some of TNG. I've been meaning to get around to watching DS9 one of these days. Probably not going to bother with anything else, just based on the feedback I've heard.

    Heck, at this point, I think the only Star Trek I consistently rewatch is Wrath of Khan.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2019-09-21 at 01:00 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    I've tried watching TOS a few times. But it looks so dated, and even at the time it was only succesfull enough to get to three seasons. I've seen most of their movies, and Wrath of Khan is indeed pretty good, though the best Star Trek film is First Contact, and Galaxy Quest might very well be second. I followed Enterprise when it first came out and enjoyed it, I've bingewatched Deep Space 9, being the next gen era show I had at that point to my idea seen the least of. I especially enjoyed the later seasons. Which is to say, everything after the first half season or so. That show had some early installment weirdness but overall grew out of it pretty fast. This is now actually overall my favorite Star Trek series, I think. Although I have little reason to revisit it...

    I've seen all of Discovery as well, I feel like it's not quite the same Star Trek (so... the same way TOS fans feel about the TNG era) but it was enjoyable enough. Although season 2 did get pretty confusing to the point where I started wondering if I was paying too little attention to the overall plot, or if some of these episodes were just pretty dumb. I think it was a mix. I'm still working on getting around to The Orville season 2. Now that show was written for nostalgic Next Generation fans. I've never cared much for the reboot movie series, though I will keep them on if I happen to be watching TV and I see one playing. And I'm carefully curious for future projects, in particular Tarantino's potential film.

    The point being: Star Trek fans have a long and proud tradition of seeing their own way of enjoying the shows as the best way, but every one of these TV and film series has its own fanbases, and they overlap in a bunch of ways. Me, I'm a Next Gen trekkie, imprinted on Picard at a young age. My Klingons have ridges, my Ferengi are sleazy car salesmen, the coolest looking ship is the Jem'Hadar fighter followed closely by the slightly less likely to explode classic Klingon Bird of Prey and the Borg are humanity's biggest existential threat. But it's fine for people to disagree on any of that.

    Except for the First Contact bit up there. Bite me Khanboys.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2019-09-21 at 02:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    More directly on subject, T'Pol treated openly showed contempt for humans in the early seasons, to the point where she insisted that humans should have been banned from space travel entirely.
    I mean, I can't disagree with her, to be perfectly honest, despite what an overly liberal view she has is on that latter point.



    For the record, I did rather like Voyager and Enterprise (certainly at the time) and found DS9 to be the least interesting of the lot (I never even watched the last... Season or two? I think I got six episodes into the full-on Dominion War are got bored, which is kinf exactly what you'd not expect me to do. I did watch the finale though, because there was a Big Starship Battle in it.)

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    I thought voyager was pretty good. The problem was it was potentially AMAZING and they kept squandering that potential which caused a lot of bad feelings. First keeping it sitcom style where everything was neatly wrapped up by the end of the episode then never mentioned again forever after amen, was a terrible choice for a series based on trying to get back home in the situation they were stuck in. Yes some things did change over time, but in general it was situation of the week, solved, move along with nothing to show from it. Maybe a vague announcement "We just shaved 2 years off our trip home, too bad we cant do it again" But not much else.

    Secondly, and related to the first, they kept introducing awesome concepts to the show that deserved to be explored more fully. Everything from interesting tech, to interpersonal experiences. As an example,
    Spoiler: tuvok and neelix
    Show
    The episode where they got blended together was great. It should have been a game changing experience for tuvok especially, but even neelix should have been effected long term. We see what amounts to an antagonistic relationship as tuvok DOES NOT LIKE neelix (in his own vulcan way) learns to understand him better and lightens up a bit by the end. It could have created a long term character arc for him as he learns his rigid seriousness and logic arent all important and its actually possible to relax a bit without horrible consequences. Instead he suggests an alternate punchline to a joke neelix told him at the start of the episode, then goes back to more or less normal if not as exasperated by neelix as he was that episode and thats it. Even the problem was that episode centric but it could have been so much better!


    Honestly, I realize all my complaints tend to be offshoots of the first one. The entire point of the series is the epic grind to get home, would it have killed them to add cosmetic changes to the set over the years to demonstrate how a ship with no ability to go into a dry dock equivalent for maintenance slowly will fall apart even with the best engineers on board? There is a REASON every naval vessel goes into dry dock every so often for major overhauls. Its absolutely vital to the long term functioning of the ship. It would have at least added a LITTLE long term tension as the voyager crew has to adapt to a slowly battered to pieces vessel and hope they can hold out long enough to get home.
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    Question Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    I actually find the continuity of conflict between the powers of the Delta quadrant like the Haakonians and Voyager incoherent.

    At one point a species even notes how much conflict Voyager got into by saying straight KT that Voyager has got into conflict with every major power in the Quadrant.

    Yet, all Voyager does is make a beeline for home and occasionally stop or get stopped. Of course, the timeline suggests this happens every week or so....
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    This is a very interesting Star Trek question. I watch all types of Star Trek TV shows and I notice that Vulcan don't express any feeling whatsoever. So my question is are all Vulcans lack emotions?
    No, they repress emotions, they feel something on the inside but do not express it on the outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    No, they repress emotions, they feel something on the inside but do not express it on the outside.
    Which makes it a bit strange when they express confusion over humans and their illogical emotions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Are you trying to watch them in "worst to best order" or something?
    ...I really like Discovery and Enterprise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    Which makes it a bit strange when they express confusion over humans and their illogical emotions.
    That's because some Star Trek writers are complete hacks.

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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Considering Romulans are basically Vulcans without the "Suppress Emotions" and "Logic all the time" switches flipped I think we can be rather certain they can deal with emotions in a functional way with enough training. . . since Romulans apparently can build star fleet threatening levels of tech. And yes they have them.

    I always felt the Romulans were the least well used major race in Star Trek. With options like highly developed emotion intelligence, training of intuition and instinct as a major socialital trait (think of the kind of intelligence described in "Blink: Thinking without Thinking"). Instead they mostly made them silly sneaking evil. The name a escapes me but a small multiepisode plot about being forced to cooperate in finding some pre-split proto-vulcan-romulan telepathic boosting artifact was one of the few times they showed much of a functional interior life of Romulans and would be a good place to start looking at what Vulcan emotions should be compared and contrasted to...vs say the Vulcan breakdowns which are not exactly normal even for them. So being able to use their emotions in a positive way becomes an interesting source of Romulan advantage (to counter the Vulcan Logic) that most writers just seem to ignore. The questions of why they have become so powerful would be a wonderful field of storytelling that has (thus far to my knowledge) not been explored in the shows or movies.

    (Then again I could see someone having fun with the Klingons being ruled by a warrior elite who run what is basically a military-industrial-imperial service complex that also pushes the most aggressive, honor obsessed, captains towards boarder patrol. With a culture of performative roughness and barbarity for purposes of "authenticity")

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    That's because some Star Trek writers are complete hacks.
    Oh, absolutely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    ...I really like Discovery and Enterprise.
    I can understand liking Discovery, there's a lot of neat stuff there, the acting is typically good, and I guess if you're fine with it being the only Star Trek with what is functionally a single viewpoint character, it's probably enjoyable.

    But I have NEVER understood what could make someone enjoy Enterprise. It has no redeeming qualities I can suss out before the final season. The plots are ridiculous, the characters abhorrent (when the primary characters are an incompetent captain, and even more incompetent engineer, a racist Vulcan, and a genocidal doctor...you've got issues), the acting middling at best, and everything else I'd care to mention is the same level of "quality".

    It's rare to actually find an Enterprise fan out in the wild, so I'm legitimately curious what it is that draws you to it.

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    Default Re: Are All Vulcans Lack Emotions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I can understand liking Discovery, there's a lot of neat stuff there, the acting is typically good, and I guess if you're fine with it being the only Star Trek with what is functionally a single viewpoint character, it's probably enjoyable.

    But I have NEVER understood what could make someone enjoy Enterprise. It has no redeeming qualities I can suss out before the final season. The plots are ridiculous, the characters abhorrent (when the primary characters are an incompetent captain, and even more incompetent engineer, a racist Vulcan, and a genocidal doctor...you've got issues), the acting middling at best, and everything else I'd care to mention is the same level of "quality".

    It's rare to actually find an Enterprise fan out in the wild, so I'm legitimately curious what it is that draws you to it.
    The entire point of Enterprise was that it was the initial voyages into the unknown, before they had any hard and fast protocols. Just like the rest of Trek, there are inconsistent writers, and the captain is only incompetent and the doctor only genocidal on very occasional episodes noted by bad writing (even if you dislike the series in general, then replace "bad writing" with "exceptionally bad writing"). I'd be hard-pressed to call T'Pol racist; she (and the other Vulcans) had a belief of smug superiority, and in T'Pol that was reduced as the series progressed. If you want to complain about openly racist characters, McCoy was constantly racist towards Spock in TOS, needling him nearly every episode and quite often calling him a goblin or pointing out his green blood, pointy ears, or other visual or anatomical differences.

    The fourth season is far and away the best, but the first two are also significantly weakened by the Temporal Cold War storyline, which I hated. The episodes that didn't deal with that tended to be quite enjoyable for me.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

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