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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    I'd imagine I'm not the only one who plays wizards that would actively hunt other wizards for their spellbooks. I mean, the rest of the party may be out to save the city, I just want the big bad's research.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    I think with some spells that are relatively harmless, sure. If the player makes some friends. A lot of the spells are a bit more like loaning an acquaintance your gun.
    Not really. First of all you aren't giving up your spell and disarming yourself by letting someone copy a spell. It's not like you have to give up the spell out of your prepared spells and become incapable of casting it to permit someone else access. It's not like loaning them your gun, it's like letting a guy that owns a machine shop Xerox the blueprint of a gun.

    Also, you are addressing acquaintances, not friends. Why do you think a wizard doesn't have any wizard friends? Friends are in a higher category of trust.
    Last edited by Shabbazar; 2019-09-22 at 11:39 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    I'd imagine I'm not the only one who plays wizards that would actively hunt other wizards for their spellbooks. I mean, the rest of the party may be out to save the city, I just want the big bad's research.
    That works fine, it's even laudable, in a sandbox world. Otherwise it depends on your DMs adventure. Or the writers, if they're using modules.

    Edit: for DMs that give away spell books as treasure, I'm curious: how do you calcuate the value as a proportion of the treasure hoard? Do you deduct it from the gold received, or the magic items?

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    The availability of spellbooks will depend entirely on the amount of "societal" (in the sense of the overall community of wizardry) trust. For example, if there are wizard colleges and large-scale communities and such, then it makes perfect sense for all not-super-deadly spells to be available if you can prove some basic level of trustworthiness, and maybe fork over a small amount of coin. Lethal spells might be harder to get, but chances are if other wizards trust you it's possible.

    On the other hand, there is no guarantee that is the case. If in your world wizards are solitary, almost always learning by themselves or from as apprentices, then they're likely to be far less open. Even your master might not teach you all of their tricks, and even if they did, you still wouldn't be able to scribe the higher-level spells until you could actually cast them (game restriction). So if your training consists of "go to master wizard, get taught until you are a level 1 wizard, then leave" at most, you would be able to copy the 1st level spells if you had the money. Other wizards might be too secretive, or demand payment to allow you access to their spellbooks, or just try to kill you and take YOUR spellbook, or might not even exist, or don't want to make themselves known to you.

    Basically, it'll be up to the GM whether or not other spellbooks are accessible and for what cost. There are any number of reasons why they would be available, and any number of reasons why they would not. All depends on the world
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    The scroll doesn't disappear once you copy the spell. There's no waste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    ...Huh, you appear to be right. It was the case in every edition up through 3rd that transcribing a scroll consumed it, but I can't find any rule to that effect in either the DMG section on scrolls nor the PHB section on spellbooks. Previous-edition-itis strikes again.

    It's still the case, though, that if all you want it for is just to transcribe it, scrolls are still more expensive and scarcer than other spellbooks.
    Spell scrolls do disappear when copied by a wizard, even if said wizard fails to copy a spell!

    For the intricacies look at page 200 and 201 of the DMG.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    Silly me for assuming that the index listing for "scroll" would point to all of the places that had rules for scrolls.

    And wizards jealously hoarding magic is a reason why they should share spellbooks, not a reason why they shouldn't. The obvious payment to get to look at another wizard's book is to let them look at your book. If I'm a power-hungry wizard, and I meet another wizard, and agree to trade equal-level spells with them, then my power level relative to that other wizard hasn't changed, but my power level relative to every other wizard in the world has increased. And the most powerful wizard in all the world will be the one who has traded like this the greatest number of times.

    Now, this does depend on each wizard having a spell that the other lacks. And so the wizards who know the most spells should be least likely to trade, because they're likely to already have everything you could offer them in trade. But among approximate peers, it should be a no-brainer.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Silly me for assuming that the index listing for "scroll" would point to all of the places that had rules for scrolls.

    And wizards jealously hoarding magic is a reason why they should share spellbooks, not a reason why they shouldn't. The obvious payment to get to look at another wizard's book is to let them look at your book. If I'm a power-hungry wizard, and I meet another wizard, and agree to trade equal-level spells with them, then my power level relative to that other wizard hasn't changed, but my power level relative to every other wizard in the world has increased. And the most powerful wizard in all the world will be the one who has traded like this the greatest number of times.

    Now, this does depend on each wizard having a spell that the other lacks. And so the wizards who know the most spells should be least likely to trade, because they're likely to already have everything you could offer them in trade. But among approximate peers, it should be a no-brainer.
    There are a number of issues with this. One, this may improve your power relative to other wizards in the world, but it doesn't improve your power compared to the wizards that are actually closest to you, AKA the ones you're trading spells with.

    Far more important, is that each individual wizard does not have perfect information on other wizard's intentions and abilities. If the other wizard is more powerful than you, what's to stop them from just killing you and taking your spellbook (and presumably your other wealth)? If they're less powerful than you, why not just do the same thing? Even if you weren't willing to do that, you gain a lot less than they do out of the exchange, and take the risk of them trying to take you out while your back is turned, or hiring a party of adventurers to do it for them. Handing someone your spellbook is basically telling them exactly what you are capable of. Of course, you could get around that by making a secondary spellbook that's far weaker than what you can actually cast, but then you end up with fewer higher-level spells being shared, and a higher likelihood that the other wizard will attack you (due to thinking you're weaker than you are). And of course, they could be doing the same thing, meaning you can never know for sure...

    Basically, if wizards can't trust each other to play fair, then they're highly unlikely to be letting each other get a detailed look into each other's capabilities. It's not hard to come up with reasons why wizards wouldn't trust each other.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabbazar View Post
    Not really. First of all you aren't giving up your spell and disarming yourself by letting someone copy a spell. It's not like you have to give up the spell out of your prepared spells and become incapable of casting it to permit someone else access. It's not like loaning them your gun, it's like letting a guy that owns a machine shop Xerox the blueprint of a gun.

    Also, you are addressing acquaintances, not friends. Why do you think a wizard doesn't have any wizard friends? Friends are in a higher category of trust.
    I'm not likely to give even a friend or family member a gun. I do sometimes let them use one at the range, while I'm there.

    Edit: All of the modules I have bought have written in them the books of the wizards the party may come in contact with.
    Last edited by Sigreid; 2019-09-23 at 06:58 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    I can't continue in this thread. It has become like discussing politics. Everyone has their world view and nobody is going to change so we are all talking past each other.

    The availability of wizards spells depends on:

    1. The nature of wizards in your world, population density of wizards, method of instruction, etc.
    2. Your view of how sapient creatures interact with each other.

    #1 is within the arbitrary purview of individual DMs, dramatically affects the results and can't really be criticized one way or another. WRT #2, that's where it becomes like politics. Even if you are right it's impossible to persuade anyone of it.

    Thanks all for the comments. Interesting views here.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabbazar View Post
    Also, you are addressing acquaintances, not friends. Why do you think a wizard doesn't have any wizard friends? Friends are in a higher category of trust.
    Do you regulary give your friends password to your bank account?
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Spells in spell book for generating higher level Wizards

    What we did a couple of years ago was pick six, then two per level as follows:
    (We were starting at level 11)
    Player chooses:

    Six firsts
    Two firsts
    two seconds
    a first and a second
    two thirds
    A second and a third
    Two fourths
    A third and a fourth
    Two fifths
    a fourth and a fifth
    Two sixths

    And then a random roll for a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 on the spell table.
    Re roll dupes.
    Subtract the 1/2 the cost of a scroll from starting gold.

    It worked. Cantrips are "player choice" only.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-23 at 08:12 AM.
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