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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Just got a totally evil idea for how best to counter our dm who loves to give his monsters high damage and to-hit bonuses... A level 10 character who is 5 each of bear totem barbarian and swashbuckler rogue.

    Stats: STR 20 (18 + 2 from ASI), DEX 18 (16 + 2 from racial, CON: 16, INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 16 (15 + 1 from racial). AC: 19 (half-plate + a shield), Speed: 40', Initiative: 12 (4 DEX + 3 CHA from swashbuckler + 5 from Alert feat) HP: 95, Weapon: +1 rapier for +10 to-hit.

    Tabaxi would grant me 80' feet of movement in a turn and 160' if I use CA to dash. Bear totem barb would already cut all but psychic dmg to me in half (useful when the dm is rolling 7d8 on a hit with his monsters), but Uncanny Dodge would let me reduce it to a quarter of he does 30+ dmg after resistance is applied (seriously, he does that kind of damage often enough for this to be necessary to have).

    With +5 STR + proficiency and advantage while raging, I can easily counter the frequent grapple checks against monsters (another favorite tactic of this dm), I think I'd be doing much better on survivability against the deadly++ level of difficulty this dm tends to favor.
    Last edited by samcifer; 2019-09-20 at 03:52 PM.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Building a character to "defeat" the DM is not going to end well for you. Your character will have a weakness(Wis saves?), and any good DM will find it and now how to use it against you.

    Over-inflated stats lead players feeling like they are stronger, but your DM has also powered up the monsters to match you.

    Besting the DM is pretty much impossible, but if you REALLY want to make it as hard on them as possible for some reason just build a jack of all trades character with no glaring weaknesses.

    Paladins and Bards are known for making life difficult on the DM. I'd start there.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    Just got a totally evil idea for how best to counter our dm who loves to give his monsters high damage and to-hit bonuses... A level 10 character who is 5 each of bear totem barbarian and swashbuckler rogue.

    Stats: STR 20 (18 + 2 from ASI), DEX 18 (16 + 2 from racial, CON: 16, INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 16 (15 + 1 from racial). AC: 19 (half-plate + a shield), Speed: 40', Initiative: 12 (4 DEX + 3 CHA from swashbuckler + 5 from Alert feat) HP: 95, Weapon: +1 rapier for +10 to-hit.

    Tabaxi would grant me 80' feet of movement in a turn and 160' if I use CA to dash. Bear totem barb would already cut all but psychic dmg to me in half (useful when the dm is rolling 7d8 on a hit with his monsters), but Uncanny Dodge would let me reduce it to a quarter of he does 30+ dmg after resistance is applied (seriously, he does that kind of damage often enough for this to be necessary to have).

    With +5 STR + proficiency and advantage while raging, I can easily counter the frequent grapple checks against monsters (another favorite tactic of this dm), I think I'd be doing much better on survivability against the deadly++ level of difficulty this dm tends to favor.
    About your specific build, you may as well put one of your experitse into Athletics if grappling is a common problem you come up against. Why have you gone for a Tabaxi on this build?

    Half plate doesn't give you anyhting but disadvantage on stealth checks, your unarmored defense would be the same AC.

    Has surprise been an issue before? Alert is a good feat but Tough would go a long way to make up for the Rogue levels (iirc you played a straight barbarian in this campaign and died, lower relative health than that character seems to point to the same end).
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    Besting the DM is pretty much impossible, but if you REALLY want to make it as hard on them as possible for some reason just build a jack of all trades character with no glaring weaknesses.
    No, you just need to run faster than the other characters. This way, the DM has to target them and not you.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    Building a character to "defeat" the DM is not going to end well for you. Your character will have a weakness(Wis saves?), and any good DM will find it and now how to use it against you.

    Over-inflated stats lead players feeling like they are stronger, but your DM has also powered up the monsters to match you.

    Besting the DM is pretty much impossible, but if you REALLY want to make it as hard on them as possible for some reason just build a jack of all trades character with no glaring weaknesses.

    Paladins and Bards are known for making life difficult on the DM. I'd start there.
    Actually, in this homebrewed campaign, we all have staring stats (before racial bonuses) of 18, 16, 16, 15, 14, and 12.

    Admittedly this is a bit tongue-in-cheek in regards to opposing the dm as such, but this particular dm tends to increase the hp, to-hit bonuses and dmg of the monsters he uses. In our session two weeks ago he had a fae queen character as a random encounter against us as we were trying to leave the land we were in after 2 battles without a rest. She had what I can only describe as a frost damage version the Meteor Swarm spell he had her use against our lv. 10 characters. The only reason we survived was because one of us had a deux ex machine magical object (a seed) that turned into a tree at her feet and killed her in a single hit while her black knight companion was banished thanks to a magic sword another of our characters had, letting us gang up on him after killing the queen while he was stranded in another dimension.

    Survivability is a huge issue for players against this particular dm, so I love the idea of using Uncanny Dodge while raging for a quarter of 60+ damage from the attack from an over-powered npc character. Getting up to 160' of movement during a single turn (40' from lv. 5 barb + Canny Action to bonus action dodge + double movement speed for a turn thanks to tabaxi racial power) with a free equivalent of the disengage action from anyone I attack thanks to swashbuckler.

    I'd considered a barb/rogue build before, but tabaxi just makes it an even more fun character to play. I haven't played this character yet, but if my firbolg light cleric bites the big one (very likely with this guy as our dm), I'll give this build a try...

    ...Then start locking my bedroom door when going to sleep each night after a session where I use this character and tactics as the dm is one of my roommates. :P

    And don't feel too bad for the dm as (see my previous threads where I talk about him in more detail, or rather, his play-style as dm) he's a bit of a jerk. LOL
    Last edited by samcifer; 2019-09-20 at 05:32 PM.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Man, I thought this was a DM asking how to make the character feel useful in combat.

    Um. Enjoy, I guess? Your sneak attack can't apply to anything your rage applies to, you've got half the Expertise of a rogue of your level, your one schtick is to be the target of save or dies instead of meat attacks, and your initiative boost means that your wizard friend is going to have issues landing his Hypnotic Pattern without friendly fire.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Man, I thought this was a DM asking how to make the character feel useful in combat.

    Um. Enjoy, I guess? Your sneak attack can't apply to anything your rage applies to, you've got half the Expertise of a rogue of your level, your one schtick is to be the target of save or dies instead of meat attacks, and your initiative boost means that your wizard friend is going to have issues landing his Hypnotic Pattern without friendly fire.
    SA only needs the weapon to be a finesse weapon, but doesn't require you to use DEX as your attack stat. Barbarians have access to rapiers and whips and can use STR for attacking with tm to get both the rage damage and reckless attacking as well as the SA damage on a hit thanks to the swashbuckler sub-class feature. I was looking for a class that had extra attack to combine with the rogue class and had been eying ranger (see my thread on this from last week: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...i-attack-class ), but taking half damage from all attacks is very appealing and having advantage on STR and DEX saves as well as initiative is just icing on the proverbial cake. There's no wizard in our group, the closest are a war cleric and a whispers bard who only cast when not doing melee attacks.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    There's no wizard in our group, the closest are a war cleric and a whispers bard who only cast when not doing melee attacks.
    Wait sorry you have a whispers bard in your party who likes to hang out in melee?

    I have to ask how they're surviving all the stuff you describe your DM throwing about.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrast View Post
    Wait sorry you have a whispers bard in your party who likes to hang out in melee?

    I have to ask how they're surviving all the stuff you describe your DM throwing about.
    He doesn't get targeted too often, really, and he's not ALWAYS in melee (sorry for the confusion on that).
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    If you want to make your DM life very hard just make Vengeance/Divine Soul Sorcadin. While this build fully blooms on level 11 (3rd level spells), it's broken as soon as you start leveling Sorcerer:

    1. Great AC
    2. Insane saves for everything
    3. With 20 Cha - high spell DC + very strong social skills
    4. Great offense with Smites, extra attack, hunter's mark etc, quicken BB
    5. Huge Nova dmg vs bosses.
    6. Huge defenses with Shield, Absorb Elements, Aura etc.
    7. Great AOE damage with Spirit Guardians
    8. Great yoyo healing with Healing Word
    9. Counter spell + enchance ability: CHA = no casting for enemy casters.
    10. Subtle metamagic- can't be counter-spelled.
    11. Twin Haste for your melee friends in party.
    12. Access to Revivify, Holy Weapon, Heal and so on.

    Generally if you are looking for build with almost no weakness- here it is. And trying to counter that build pretty much means either desperate moves or killing rest of the party just to scratch this one.

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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Nothing wrong with having a tough DM as long as he's consistent. I'm a pretty tough DM when I'm playing with experienced players. It's the DM's job to make it challenging. I don't understand what running is going to accomplish. I played with a player in a very tough campaign and this guy's character would run away every time things got tough. After a while, everybody in the party had rolled up at LEAST 2 additional characters after their first except this guy who still had his first character and his character was the only thing connecting the current group to the beginning of the story/campaign. Needless to say we were all getting sick of him running so we all decided his character was notorious throughout the lands for getting characters killed and couldn't be trusted. (yes we spoke to him outside the game)


    Anyway, it doesn't fit a Barbarian to run. You're going to be dropping your limited rages all the time by running. That being said, Barbarian/Rogue can be great and yes Uncanny Dodge is strong. If you really want to play a highly Mobile character I'd play a Tabaxi Monk. You wouldn't even need weapons or armor. Rogue combines well with Monk too. A Tabaxi Scout 5/Monk 5 would be awesome. Every time an enemy ends it's turn next to you, you can move away half your speed which would be like 25ft. You could move 45ft, Dash with your action 45ft, and then Dash with your bonus action 45ft more. Of course a Tabaxi can double that when needed. This setup is even better with an Aarakocra as you can just fly away from an enemy when they end their turn nest to you.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    I played with a player in a very tough campaign and this guy's character would run away every time things got tough.
    I hope you called him Sir Robin.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    I actually DID play a vengenance pali / DS sorc with a glaive and GWM and PM. Did tons of damage with that character. :)

    Monk/rogue WAS my first idea, but unless I stick with a short sword, kensei would seem to be the only sub-class I could go with and the build would need to be monk 6 / rogue 4 to start as the unarmed strikes could be resisted. I'd likely go rogue to 5, then a level of barbarian for rage resistance (maybe to lv. 3 for bear totem at most), then focus on monk from there.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    No, you just need to run faster than the other characters. This way, the DM has to target them and not you.
    Good news, tabaxi kensei monk meets both requirements, no glaring weaknesses and you get to outrun everyone ever.

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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    What's the big deal using a shortsword? Kensei Monk with a longsword is only +1 damage gain over shortsword, dagger, or unarmed strike with 5 levels of Monk

    If I played a Tabaxi Monk I wouldn't use weapons. I like the flavor of using Tabaxi's claws as unarmed strikes. Should work with sneak attack damage as Martial Arts makes Unarmed Strikes Finesse weapons.

    I like Open Hand, but if you think you'll ever make 11 levels of Monk, Long Death would be awesome.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    What's the big deal using a shortsword? Kensei Monk with a longsword is only +1 damage gain over shortsword, dagger, or unarmed strike with 5 levels of Monk

    If I played a Tabaxi Monk I wouldn't use weapons. I like the flavor of using Tabaxi's claws as unarmed strikes. Should work with sneak attack damage as Martial Arts makes Unarmed Strikes Finesse weapons.

    I like Open Hand, but if you think you'll ever make 11 levels of Monk, Long Death would be awesome.
    That actually doesn't work. Martial arts merely lets you use dex for your unarmed strikes, it doesn't give them the finesse property. This has been brought up quite a few times in sage advice, I would let it happen because it would be fun but by raw it doesn't work.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daghoulish View Post
    That actually doesn't work. Martial arts merely lets you use dex for your unarmed strikes, it doesn't give them the finesse property. This has been brought up quite a few times in sage advice, I would let it happen because it would be fun but by raw it doesn't work.
    Yeah, I doubt my dm would allow it because, funny enough, a similar issue came up during the last wednesday session. Our moon druid with a level of monk asked if, while in the form of a giant eagle, if he could make a beak attack then follow with an unarmed strike and the dm thought it over and ruled no because the beak was considered a natural weapon, not an unarmed attack.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daghoulish View Post
    That actually doesn't work. Martial arts merely lets you use dex for your unarmed strikes, it doesn't give them the finesse property. This has been brought up quite a few times in sage advice, I would let it happen because it would be fun but by raw it doesn't work.

    You know I thought that sounded odd so I'm not surprised it's wrong. I got it from this website I tend to use when trying to remember specific class abilities. http://gdnd.wikidot.com/coreclass:monk

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    You know I thought that sounded odd so I'm not surprised it's wrong. I got it from this website I tend to use when trying to remember specific class abilities. http://gdnd.wikidot.com/coreclass:monk
    It's a wiki, anyone should be able to fix it.
    Well, at least those who made an account there.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    If you must "beat" your DM, you're playing the wrong game.

    Let him keep killing your characters, don't heal, and don't put any effort into the game... Just go through the motions for a session or two without doing anything cool.

    Then ask if he wants to DM or play a PC because he seems to not want to actually DM.

    The best way to "beat" a DM that does this sort of thing is to not fight said DM and show how boring the game is for the players.

    Edit: Spell correct has betrayed me.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by SpawnOfMorbo View Post
    If you must "beat" your DM, you're playing the wrong game.

    Let him keep killing your characters, don't heal, and don't put any effort into the game... Just go through the motions for a session or two without doing anything cool.

    Then ask if he wants to DM or play a PC because he seems to not want to actually DM.

    The best way to "beat" a DM that does this sort of thing is to not fight said DM and show how boring the game is for the players.

    Edit: Spell correct has betrayed me.
    It's just that this dm (the only one I have to play with) tends to make his monsters VERY over-powered and it seems as if at least one player makes at least one death save every other battle. Take our ratling wild magic sorcerer for example. Granted, his player built him very poorly with low AC (14 or 15, I think) and HP as he has only 60hp at lv. 12, but he ended up dropping to 0hp 4 times during our last session.

    Granted, everyone else just shrugs and goes with it, but as a writer who becomes emotionally invested in his characters, I hate seeing them die. I don't want to keep re-making the same character again and again in the same campaign, so anything that can increase my survivability is something I want for my character(s).

    Besides, if I'd gone rogue instead of fighter on my half-orc bear totem barb / battlemaster fighter a ways back in that same campaign, I might have enjoyed playing that character more. Seriously, PRecision was the only bm ability I ever got to make use of because foes would either save against a trip or frightening, or be immune to it.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    It's just that this dm (the only one I have to play with) tends to make his monsters VERY over-powered and it seems as if at least one player makes at least one death save every other battle. Take our ratling wild magic sorcerer for example. Granted, his player built him very poorly with low AC (14 or 15, I think) and HP as he has only 60hp at lv. 12, but he ended up dropping to 0hp 4 times during our last session.

    Granted, everyone else just shrugs and goes with it, but as a writer who becomes emotionally invested in his characters, I hate seeing them die. I don't want to keep re-making the same character again and again in the same campaign, so anything that can increase my survivability is something I want for my character(s).

    Besides, if I'd gone rogue instead of fighter on my half-orc bear totem barb / battlemaster fighter a ways back in that same campaign, I might have enjoyed playing that character more. Seriously, PRecision was the only bm ability I ever got to make use of because foes would either save against a trip or frightening, or be immune to it.
    Let the DM TPK y'all.

    If you just keep going with this, he's going to DM for others and spread this antagonistic play style to more people.

    You can't "beat" the DM. Even if you destroy the encounter, you aren't beating the DM.

    Edit

    Death isn't the end to the character, it's the end to that particular story. You can always bring back the character in another game.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by SpawnOfMorbo View Post
    Let the DM TPK y'all.

    If you just keep going with this, he's going to DM for others and spread this antagonistic play style to more people.

    You can't "beat" the DM. Even if you destroy the encounter, you aren't beating the DM.
    TBH, it's not really about "beating the dm", but rather having a slightly higher chance to surviving longer. I just want to play a character who will last more than two sessions or so. :P
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    As usual, the best course of action is to talk to the DM out of game and express your concerns

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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    As usual, the best course of action is to talk to the DM out of game and express your concerns
    I always assume this has already happened.

    I have too much faith in people, sometimes.

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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    I think would I would do in this situation is just make a bunch of oddball but still effective characters especially with those stats.

    Gnome Barbarian? check
    Goblin Monk? check
    Half-Orc Sorcerer? Sure why not
    Dwarf Bard? heck yeah
    Orc Wizard? mhm
    Gnome Conquest Paladin? yup
    Beastmaster Ranger? Might as well
    Beastmaster Ranger/Chain Pact Warlock? Screw the action economy!

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    After looking over various other classes, I still feel that barbarian + rogue is the way to go over another subclass. Let's look at what 5 of each class would give us:

    Fighter: Access to all weapons and armor except for heavy unless I took this class first which would hurt my selection of rogue-focused skills, Second Wind for 6 to 15 pts. of healing as a once per rest bonus action, Action Surge (tempting to mc into later), and extra attack, and perhaps an extra early ASI/feat if I were to go to 6. Likely subclasses would be Eldritch Knight for a bit of spellcasting such as the Shield Spell or Samurai for one round of advantage to all attack rolls.

    Monk: Heavy dependence on DEX + WIS, one or 2 bonus action attacks that I couldn't use to get SA damage, +15 ft. of movement per turn, Dodge as a bonus action with a limited number of uses, Deflect Missiles (which comes up rarely as the dm mostly uses melee with lots of movement or caster characters), Slow Fall (a rather situational ability that might have been used all of 2 times in the two and a half years I've been playing with this group) and Stunning Strike which has a limited number of uses and targets th worst stat to target. Subclasses would be limited to Open Hand or Kensei, the first of which doesn't work well with SA in my mind as it all happens AFTER you use your action to attack, and Kensei which is kind of bleah.

    Ranger: One skill, A fighting style (probably Dueling, Twin Weapon Fighting which may require the Dual Wielding feat as well, or Defense), Base abilities that are very situational and too difficult to use in a campaign with varied terrain and enemies, a small bit of spellcasting, and most likely the gloom Stalker sub-class that gives up to +5 initiative, An okay improvement to Darkvision, and both +10 ft. of movement and an extra attack with an extra +1d8 of damage that only works for the first turn.

    Barbarian: +2 damage on every attack so long as I use STR to attack (so built-in Dueling fighting style), Advantage on STR checks and saves, resistance to all physical damage (+ all others but psychic with bear totem), {all at 3 times per long rest}, +10 ft. of movement, Advantage on DEX saves vs. 'seeable' traps/effects, Advantage to all attacks as a free action so long as I use STR to attack, the highest HP I could get vs. the other options.



    So to me it looks as if barbarian gives me more features and benefits that I would use much more often and be able to use on ANY of my turns instead of only the first one and those benefits and features don't require the use of a limited resource like Ki. As for spellcasting, I don't see it as much of a loss. If I want spell slots later, I'd likely go a few levels in paladin for smite damage. Barb gives me extra damage, a guaranteed way to get advantage on attack rolls, higher HP, non-situational extra movement, and most importantly a way to take less damage consistently from all but psychic attacks.

    It just feels like a better way to go imo.
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by samcifer View Post
    After looking over various other classes, I still feel that barbarian + rogue is the way to go over another subclass. Let's look at what 5 of each class would give us:

    Fighter: Access to all weapons and armor except for heavy unless I took this class first which would hurt my selection of rogue-focused skills, Second Wind for 6 to 15 pts. of healing as a once per rest bonus action, Action Surge (tempting to mc into later), and extra attack, and perhaps an extra early ASI/feat if I were to go to 6. Likely subclasses would be Eldritch Knight for a bit of spellcasting such as the Shield Spell or Samurai for one round of advantage to all attack rolls.

    Monk: Heavy dependence on DEX + WIS, one or 2 bonus action attacks that I couldn't use to get SA damage, +15 ft. of movement per turn, Dodge as a bonus action with a limited number of uses, Deflect Missiles (which comes up rarely as the dm mostly uses melee with lots of movement or caster characters), Slow Fall (a rather situational ability that might have been used all of 2 times in the two and a half years I've been playing with this group) and Stunning Strike which has a limited number of uses and targets th worst stat to target. Subclasses would be limited to Open Hand or Kensei, the first of which doesn't work well with SA in my mind as it all happens AFTER you use your action to attack, and Kensei which is kind of bleah.

    Ranger: One skill, A fighting style (probably Dueling, Twin Weapon Fighting which may require the Dual Wielding feat as well, or Defense), Base abilities that are very situational and too difficult to use in a campaign with varied terrain and enemies, a small bit of spellcasting, and most likely the gloom Stalker sub-class that gives up to +5 initiative, An okay improvement to Darkvision, and both +10 ft. of movement and an extra attack with an extra +1d8 of damage that only works for the first turn.

    Barbarian: +2 damage on every attack so long as I use STR to attack (so built-in Dueling fighting style), Advantage on STR checks and saves, resistance to all physical damage (+ all others but psychic with bear totem), {all at 3 times per long rest}, +10 ft. of movement, Advantage on DEX saves vs. 'seeable' traps/effects, Advantage to all attacks as a free action so long as I use STR to attack, the highest HP I could get vs. the other options.



    So to me it looks as if barbarian gives me more features and benefits that I would use much more often and be able to use on ANY of my turns instead of only the first one and those benefits and features don't require the use of a limited resource like Ki. As for spellcasting, I don't see it as much of a loss. If I want spell slots later, I'd likely go a few levels in paladin for smite damage. Barb gives me extra damage, a guaranteed way to get advantage on attack rolls, higher HP, non-situational extra movement, and most importantly a way to take less damage consistently from all but psychic attacks.

    It just feels like a better way to go imo.


    Just keep in mind that most of the Barbarian's feature's require raging to work, and at Barbarian 5, you'll only have 3 rages per day. Originally you were building this to be highly mobile to be able to get away which means dropping rage frequently. I don't know how your DM handles rests, but unless he allows plenty of long rests, this build could backfire on you.



    While 5 levels of Fighter may be boring, all features are always on. Swashbucklers are great candidates for the TWF style. Battlemasters have limited resources, but reset after short rests.

    Monk's features are also always on and while limited, reset after short rests. Again, the importance of this depends on your DM. Stunning Strike is especially strong against DM amplified enemies. Also, if you happen to miss with your 2 main attacks, there is no reason why you couldn't attack with a dagger in your off hand like every other class can in order to get sneak damage. Don't discount Long Death Monk as temp hit points on a kill is strong in 5e and a level 11 Long Death Monk is very very very very VERY hard to kill if you were ever to get there.

    A Gloom Stalker Ranger/Rogue 5 makes a very good melee character, but I prefer this option for an Archer. Either way don't discount the fact that the Gloom Stalker's extra attack and movement is ONLY first round because you're still pretty much guaranteed to use it every encounter.


    I say consider a Swashbuckler/Paladin. You have the stats to pull it off and you could still be a Tabaxi. Once you get to level 11 and are Rogue 5/Paladin 6, this would arguably be a tougher character than Rogue/Barbarian. Even moreso if you were a Rogue 5/Ancients Paladin 7. Paladins are especially powerful in campaigns with frequent long rests. Swashbucklers pair perfectly with Paladins too.

    Swash/Devotion are awesome getting to add Cha to hit when you're fighting the BBEG
    Swash/Vengeance are awesome getting advantage against the BBEG. Consider Half-Elf + Elven Accuracy for this
    Swash/Ancients are awesome getting resistance to spell damage(always on all the time) combined with Uncanny Dodge.

    Paladins make the whole party better too



    Consider a Swashbuckler/Swords Bard for a character that would be really good at everything and have no glaring weakness. THIS is the kind of character that makes life hell on a DM(besides Paladins)


    Anyway, Barbarian/Rogues are really good and I'm sure your idea will be fine. Just trying to show you other options.


    Honestly I would consider a straight Long Death Monk assuming you'd hit level 11.




    How does your DM do with rests? Do you get plenty of Long Rests? I've played with DMs that pretty much have 1 big encounter and then rest, and then I've played with DMs where Long Rests were few and far between. Just keep in mind that Paladins are kings of the 5 minute adventuring day. If you DM is one big fight and then long rest, go Paladin/Barbarian for maximum survivability. If your DM doesn't give many long rests, consider Monk or Battlemaster Fighter to go along with Rogue.
    Last edited by CTurbo; 2019-09-23 at 06:36 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    Just keep in mind that most of the Barbarian's feature's require raging to work, and at Barbarian 5, you'll only have 3 rages per day. Originally you were building this to be highly mobile to be able to get away which means dropping rage frequently. I don't know how your DM handles rests, but unless he allows plenty of long rests, this build could backfire on you.



    While 5 levels of Fighter may be boring, all features are always on. Swashbucklers are great candidates for the TWF style. Battlemasters have limited resources, but reset after short rests.

    Monk's features are also always on and while limited, reset after short rests. Again, the importance of this depends on your DM. Stunning Strike is especially strong against DM amplified enemies. Also, if you happen to miss with your 2 main attacks, there is no reason why you couldn't attack with a dagger in your off hand like every other class can in order to get sneak damage. Don't discount Long Death Monk as temp hit points on a kill is strong in 5e and a level 11 Long Death Monk is very very very very VERY hard to kill if you were ever to get there.

    A Gloom Stalker Ranger/Rogue 5 makes a very good melee character, but I prefer this option for an Archer. Either way don't discount the fact that the Gloom Stalker's extra attack and movement is ONLY first round because you're still pretty much guaranteed to use it every encounter.


    I say consider a Swashbuckler/Paladin. You have the stats to pull it off and you could still be a Tabaxi. Once you get to level 11 and are Rogue 5/Paladin 6, this would arguably be a tougher character than Rogue/Barbarian. Even moreso if you were a Rogue 5/Ancients Paladin 7. Paladins are especially powerful in campaigns with frequent long rests. Swashbucklers pair perfectly with Paladins too.

    Swash/Devotion are awesome getting to add Cha to hit when you're fighting the BBEG
    Swash/Vengeance are awesome getting advantage against the BBEG. Consider Half-Elf + Elven Accuracy for this
    Swash/Ancients are awesome getting resistance to spell damage(always on all the time) combined with Uncanny Dodge.

    Paladins make the whole party better too



    Consider a Swashbuckler/Swords Bard for a character that would be really good at everything and have no glaring weakness. THIS is the kind of character that makes life hell on a DM(besides Paladins)


    Anyway, Barbarian/Rogues are really good and I'm sure your idea will be fine. Just trying to show you other options.


    Honestly I would consider a straight Long Death Monk assuming you'd hit level 11.




    How does your DM do with rests? Do you get plenty of Long Rests? I've played with DMs that pretty much have 1 big encounter and then rest, and then I've played with DMs where Long Rests were few and far between. Just keep in mind that Paladins are kings of the 5 minute adventuring day. If you DM is one big fight and then long rest, go Paladin/Barbarian for maximum survivability. If your DM doesn't give many long rests, consider Monk or Battlemaster Fighter to go along with Rogue.
    For rests, it varies. He recently had us get attacked by pixies with a grapple attack and a bit that caused a loss in max hp until our next long rest equal to the damage we took. We then had to go encounter a dragon without a rest, but the bard 'took one for the team' by striking a bargain with the dragon who now has a piece of it's soul in him and is manipulating him subtly and bodes ill for the future. Then right after that encounter we had to fight a fae queen and a her dark knight lackey before we could get another rest in.

    the issue with monks for me is dependence on Ki. I COULD take some paladin levels later on as we tend to level up every 2 or 3 weeks of this weekly campaign and there's still a long way left to go in the story of it.

    My plan as a barb/rogue is to stick and run, then more stick and run via dashing as a bonus action with Swashbuckler granting me the equivalent of a free disengage action if I move carefully. I'd make sure to attack at least once per turn to keep rage going and using reckless attack for an easier time to hit and rage resistance with uncanny dodge to make the really big damaging hits a quarter of their full damage, increasing my survivability.

    I've considered pally-rogue, but it takes more damage than I'd like, so I'd still want at least 1 level of barb if not 4 for the asi/feat.

    IF I were to add any levels of fighter, I'd only go 2 for Action Surge and only after going 5 in a different class for the extra attack. To me, fighter is just such a boring and limited class to play and the few things it offers are all combat-focused.

    I just really like the flavor of a pc who is graceful, dexterous and agile enough to steal people blind and sneak around until he goes into a blinding rage, shouts 'screw it!" and starts cracking heads. The unbridled fury and savagery juxtaposed with stealth, elegance and finesse just really sounds like a fun either/or kind of concept to me. :)
    "I'll have my revenge, and Deathstalker (part) II! "

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: Oh no... A Tabaxi bear totem barb 5/swashbuckler rogue 5 vs. overpowered dm...

    I second the peoples who said you should rather talk to the DM about this issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    You know I thought that sounded odd so I'm not surprised it's wrong. I got it from this website I tend to use when trying to remember specific class abilities. http://gdnd.wikidot.com/coreclass:monk
    This website is rather reliable:

    http://5e.d20srd.org/index.htm
    ------- 5E MM Resistances, Immunities, Vulnerabilities, and Damage. - - Petrocorus' Paladin Builds List. - - 3.5 Reference Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
    Quote Originally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
    Common sense is for commoners, not for [ PC ].

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