Eldritch Blast vs Ranger with Bow

[Bigmouth]

The setup. A warlock player constantly complains about how crap warlocks are. Constantly. I counter that Eldritch Blast is damned nice and out damages rangers with bows (who he says are OP). He states there is no warlock equivalent of Sharpshooter, which means warlocks can't compete. Billions of posts online where people have done the math he says. I didn't search for these billions of posts. I just did the math myself. Pretty easy to show that EB out damages even a Gloom Stalker w/ Sharpshooter once you hit 11th level. However, I know my friend the warlock player rather well, so he'll instantly bring up magic items. A bow with flametongue for instance. As I've been writing this I've discovered the Rod of the Pact Keeper for the warlock. Am I missing something obvious that would change the comparison? (I'm obviously only comparing EB vs Bow, not Warlock vs Ranger)

[Whit]

It’s easy to tell that Ranger will outshine with bow a warlock with EB

Sharpshooter, archery, fight style colossal slayer spell that adds damage

Exceeds the Warlock EB AG invocation hex stuff

Bottom line he’s right. Even if yuh don’t go into magic items. But if u do then even more so. All melee barbarian fighter ranger Paladin and rogue beat spell casters damage

[HappyDaze]

Bottom line he’s right. Even if yuh don’t go into magic items. But if u do then even more so.

Unless the warlock has the gloves from Ravnica that let him cast two cantrips every turn.

[Yunru]

What Warlocks are best at, is sniping, and even then they need a bit of Sorcerer.
Spell Sniper, Distant Spell and Eldritch Spear gives you a range of 1200 feet.

[ad_hoc]

Tell them to take advantage of their high level spell slots.

At level 5 they have an average of 6 3rd level spells per day. That's much more raw power than every other caster in the game.

Rangers don't get that.

[Contrast]

A warlock player constantly complains about how crap warlocks are. Constantly.

I honestly wouldn't bother with the argument. EB is nice consistent damage but warlocks real power comes from the combination of invocations, frequent short rests, high level spell slots and consistent damage in conjunction, not just from one of those. Rangers don't get disguise self at will or a perma-invisible scout or etc etc.

If the player isn't enjoying the character, the solution may just be for them to play something else.

[rbstr]

EB is fantastic and puts out damage above basically everything that's not a -5/10-based build.

It’s easy to tell that Ranger will outshine with bow a warlock with EB

Sharpshooter, archery, fight style colossal slayer spell that adds damage

Exceeds the Warlock EB AG invocation hex stuff

Bottom line he’s right. Even if yuh don’t go into magic items. But if u do then even more so. All melee barbarian fighter ranger Paladin and rogue beat spell casters damage

It's a lot closer than you're implying. The only way you're massively exceeding the warlock is if you're going gloomstalker and have the extra attack.
At level 11, max stats:
A sharp shooter GS Ranger with longbow & hunter's mark is doing 3x(d8+d6+15). 69 damage round 1 (nice). 46 per-round after.
He's also got -3 to hit but gets to re-roll one miss.

Warlock with Hex and Agonizing 3x(d10+d6+5). 42 per round.
(If it's a hexblade they're could curse in and do 43.5 in the first round, adding hex in the second round for 54 thereafter, not counting extra crits of course.)

At level 17?
The Ranger's damage hasn't gone up. But the basic Warlock is now putting out 56. So they're even after 2 rounds.
The magic item difference is actually in the warlocks favor: +3 bow vs. +3 rod? Ranger gets 6 extra damage, warlock gets 12.

[Kane0]

D10 Force damage cantrip with better than fighter attack progression, can apply up to 4 invocations for extra damage and control, short rest 1st level spell slots for extra d6 damage per hit and if he wants to bring in magic items show him pearl of power, ring of spell storing and rod of the pact keeper.
And thats before multiclassing and feats. They dont get sharpshooter but have a look at spell sniper, warcaster and even magic initiate.

Sit down son, warlock is NOT shafted in the ranged damage race.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm mostly impressed that he chooses Ranger as his metric rather than Fighter. Everywhere I go I've read that Fighter's are generally considered the superior archer over Ranger. It's all Sharpshooter. On its own EB will outshine most other weapons every day of the week but since Sharpshooter can be easily used with the Archery Fighting Style you just can't keep up with it.

Just the bare minimum of math: Assume lvl 11 VHuman Fighter and lvl 11 VHuman Warlock. Both have Hex (Fighter took it using MI) Fighter and Warlock both have 20 in their primary stat thanks to Fighter's bonus ASI.

Fighter (Longbow): (1d8+1d6+15) x 3 = 69 average damage (87 max)

Warlock (EB): (1d10+1d6+5) x 3 = 42 average damage (63 max)

It's worth noting that even a Ranger at level 11 would be dealing more damage than the Warlock with Sharpshooter: Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark used.

Ranger (Longbow): (1d8+1d6+15) + (2d8+1d6+15) = 51.5 average damage (66 max)

The greatest strength of EB is not it's pure damage (which is a strong point regardless) but it's modularity. It's almost always got more going on than just damage, such as pushing or pulling an enemy from a distance as great as 1200 ft up. Not being able to keep up with Sharpshooter doesn't make your option weak, it shows what everyone knows, Sharpshooter is too good.

At level 17?
The Ranger's damage hasn't gone up. But the basic Warlock is now putting out 56. So they're even after 2 rounds.
The magic item difference is actually in the warlocks favor: +3 bow vs. +3 rod? Ranger gets 6 extra damage, warlock gets 12.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a reason why +3 ammunition wouldn't work together with a +3 weapon. Sure it's wildly inefficient but the option is there.

[Yunru]

I'm mostly impressed that he chooses Ranger as his metric rather than Fighter. Everywhere I go I've read that Fighter's are generally considered the superior archer over Ranger. It's all Sharpshooter. On its own EB will outshine most other weapons every day of the week but since Sharpshooter can be easily used with the Archery Fighting Style you just can't keep up with it.

Just the bare minimum of math: Assume lvl 11 VHuman Fighter and lvl 11 VHuman Warlock. Both have Hex (Fighter took it using MI) Fighter and Warlock both have 20 in their primary stat thanks to Fighter's bonus ASI.

Fighter (Longbow): (1d8+1d6+15) x 3 = 69 average damage (87 max)

Warlock (EB): (1d10+1d6+5) x 3 = 42 average damage (63 max)

Some dodgy preconceptions their. First, the longbow is also 15% less accurate.

Spoiler: Break-Even Point Maths

Show

42*X=69*(X-15)
42X=69X-1035
27X=1035
X=38.3333...

They break even at 38.3 reoccurring percent. Above that the longbow wins.

But wait, the Fighter can only use Hex once per day. So let's readjust those numbers to account for Hex being in only 1/6th of the Fighter's fights.

Fighter (Longbow): (1d8+15) x 3 + (1d6 / 2) = 60.25 average damage (72 max)

Warlock (EB): (1d10+1d6+5) x 3 = 42 average damage (63 max)

Spoiler: Break-Even Point Maths

Show

42*X=60.25*(X-15)
42X=60.25X-903.75
18.25X=903.75
X=49.73(etc)

They break even at 49.7 percent. Above that the longbow wins.

[ProsecutorGodot]

SNIP

You don't have to say it's dodgy preconception, it was meant to just be a very dumbed down simulation and I didn't claim it was more than that. Thank you for the more in depth information though, I never bothered to learn how to account for hit chance and all those other variables.

[Yunru]

You don't have to say it's dodgy preconception, it was meant to just be a very dumbed down simulation and I didn't claim it was more than that. Thank you for the more in depth information though, I never bothered to learn how to account for hit chance and all those other variables.

Yeah my bad, when I started writing it I was also thinking the Fighter had gotten a free feat while the Warlock hadn't... which now that I think about it, is actually the case.

[stoutstien]

The setup. A warlock player constantly complains about how crap warlocks are. Constantly. I counter that Eldritch Blast is damned nice and out damages rangers with bows (who he says are OP). He states there is no warlock equivalent of Sharpshooter, which means warlocks can't compete. Billions of posts online where people have done the math he says. I didn't search for these billions of posts. I just did the math myself. Pretty easy to show that EB out damages even a Gloom Stalker w/ Sharpshooter once you hit 11th level. However, I know my friend the warlock player rather well, so he'll instantly bring up magic items. A bow with flametongue for instance. As I've been writing this I've discovered the Rod of the Pact Keeper for the warlock. Am I missing something obvious that would change the comparison? (I'm obviously only comparing EB vs Bow, not Warlock vs Ranger)

Why is the player character a warlock if they don't like warlock?

[Chronos]

A couple of other points to remember: There's no guarantee of magic items, and without a magic bow, an archer is pretty screwed against any of the numerous monsters who resist or are immune to nonmagical weapons. But there are all of three monsters in the book that are defended against Eldritch Blast (Helmed Horror, Raksasha, and Archmage).

And repelling (or attracting) is really good. As in, there are cantrips that do nothing but that, and aren't even as good at it. If, for instance, you can push an enemy into your cleric's Spirit Guardians, that's an extra 3d8 or more. Bonus points if there's a cliff, lava, or other natural hazards around.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I prefer to have the best of both options: Warlock with a bow! (via Improved Pact Weapon)

The Warlock with a bow can attack with their CHA, add CHA to damage, add Prof bonus to damage (Hexblade's curse), add CHA again (Lifedrinker), add 1d6 for Hex, take the Sharpshooter feat, then throw in an Eldritch Smite for +6d6 force damage plus auto-prone.

At which point your melee pals have advantage on the target and ROFLSTOMP all over what's left of it.

[Bardon]

Additionally, if for some reason something happens to the Ranger's bow, he's screwed. Weapons get damaged, spells can adversely affect them, the King's bodyguards confiscate all weapons before you can have an audience ... there are a plethora of reasons why something might make the bow unavailable, but the Warlock will always have his spells!

[MirrorDarkly]

On my warlock I lay down sickening radiance and push enemies into it with EB.

They have to save on my turn when they get pushed in then again on the start of their turn. The damage from EB is almost trivial.

Also since I can control how far I push them (up to 10 feet per hit) I leave them right on the edge of it so the melee typed can still attack them.

[Bigmouth]

Heh, got a lot of replies while I was spending time with the wife. So what I was going to reply with is a bit dated. But I'll toss it up here anyway.

A) 20th lvl Warlock: EB, Agonizing Blast and Hex: 1d10+1d6+5 (14) with 4 attacks +12 to hit.
B) 20th lvl Hunter: Longbow, Hunters Mark 1d8+1d6+5 (13) (+1d8 Once/turn) +14 to hit.
C) 20th lvl Hunter with Sharpshooter: 1d8+1d6+15 (23)(+1d8 Once/turn) with +9 to hit.
Using a target to give sharp its best numbers: 11AC. Miss on 1. Hit on 2-19. Crit on 20. Take the numbers and get the average over all 20 results.
A: 13.75 B: 12.75 C:17.65

A: Warlock takes their 13.75 and does it 4 times. 55 points of damage per round on average.
B: Hunter does their damage twice. 12.75*2 and adds 4.5 for their colossus slayer. (See Note 1) 29.73 dmg per round
C: Hunter with Sharp does their damage twice 22.25*2 and adds 4.5 for their colossus slayer (See Note 1) 48.73 dmg per round

VS a more realistic 18 AC those numbers become: A:41 B:26.68 C:31.05

Note 1: 4.275 actually thanks to the miss on a 1. If Colossus Slayer damage is doubled on crits (which isn't how I read it) then it would indeed be 4.5, the crit cancelling out the miss.

So...on to the stuff that happened while I was away. :D
Thank you HappyDaze! Those Illusionist's Bracers are insane for Eldritch Blast. Exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.

ad_hoc: The Warlock's view on warlock's spells is completely ruined by the spell slots. That's all he sees. Myself, I never really sat down to look at the usefulness of upping one spell every level. Thank you for pointing it out.

Contrast: He's my best friend, and he likes a good argument/discussion from time to time. So yes, silly, but it makes him happy so I'm happy to put up a good fight every so often.

rbstr: My figures for the Gloomstalker with sharp give an average DPR vs 18 AC 45.3 (1st Round). Avg over 3 rounds of 34.03 By 4th it averages out to 32.63.

Kane0: I know it doesn't make sense. I don't really understand his thing with the warlock other than thinking literally all he sees is spell slots and compares it to wizard.

ProsecutorGodot: He chooses ranger because we have a Gloomstalker in the party and he got to see her do some good damage last game session. Fighter obviously is going to be the king.

Stoutstien: I don't know why he chose warlock other than he was into the concept of the chain pact at first, combines with the telepathic aspects provided by GOO

[Amechra]

Additionally, if for some reason something happens to the Ranger's bow, he's screwed. Weapons get damaged, spells can adversely affect them, the King's bodyguards confiscate all weapons before you can have an audience ... there are a plethora of reasons why something might make the bow unavailable, but the Warlock will always have his spells!

I mean, spells can adversely affect the Warlock's ability to cast spells, too - Silence them, and they can't cast Eldritch Blast at all, to give just one example.

---

Gloom Stalkers are actually a bad subclass to compare to a Warlock if you want to compare continual damage output. You're actually better off comparing it to a Horizon Walker, Hunter, or Monster Slayer, since they can get their +1d8 damage every round. Some scribbled napkin math seems to indicate that, once the Ranger gets spells, it's ahead ranged damage-wise from 2nd level to 10th level (assuming a non-Hexblade Warlock - Hexblade's Curse beats the Ranger's damage boosters up and takes their lunch money).

EDIT: Though being in the same party as a Gloom Stalker would explain the dissatisfaction - Gloom Stalkers have much higher spike damage than a Warlock.

[HappyDaze]

Thank you HappyDaze! Those Illusionist's Bracers are insane for Eldritch Blast. Exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.

They are indeed insane. This is part of why GGtR is one of the three books I outright ban in my games (along with SCAG and Acquisitions Incorporated).

[Amechra]

They are indeed insane. This is part of why GGtR is one of the three books I outright ban in my games (along with SCAG and Acquisitions Incorporated).

Out of curiosity, any specific reasons why you ban Acquisitions Incorporated?

[HappyDaze]

Out of curiosity, any specific reasons why you ban Acquisitions Incorporated?

To be specific, it's just the stuff between the front cover and the back cover (inclusive of the covers themselves) that I dislike. I simply don't care for the mechanics associated with characters' franchise roles (and the special items that come with those roles), franchise downtime, franchise headquarters, or really much of anything in the book. The humor it goes for doesn't appeal to me at all.

[Tanarii]

A) 20th lvl Warlock: EB, Agonizing Blast and Hex: 1d10+1d6+5 (14) with 4 attacks +12 to hit.
B) 20th lvl Hunter: Longbow, Hunters Mark 1d8+1d6+5 (13) (+1d8 Once/turn) +14 to hit.
C) 20th lvl Hunter with Sharpshooter: 1d8+1d6+15 (23)(+1d8 Once/turn) with +9 to hit.
Using a target to give sharp its best numbers: 11AC. Miss on 1. Hit on 2-19. Crit on 20. Take the numbers and get the average over all 20 results.
A: 13.75 B: 12.75 C:17.65

How much campaign time do you plan to spend at 17+?

Generally speaking comparisons should be done in the Tier 2 levels, 5-10, since that's where most play happens. With a look at the level 11 boost for Tier 3, if the campaign expects to go that long. And warlocks comparisons generally suffer the most in Tier 2.

Don't get me wrong, I love Warlocks and think they are perfectly fine. But that doesn't mean I think level 20 comparisons are the way to go.

ad_hoc: The Warlock's view on warlock's spells is completely ruined by the spell slots. That's all he sees. Myself, I never really sat down to look at the usefulness of upping one spell every level. Thank you for pointing it out.

Kane0: I know it doesn't make sense. I don't really understand his thing with the warlock other than thinking literally all he sees is spell slots and compares it to wizard.

If that's the case, no wonder he doesn't understand the warlock.

How many short rests are you getting per long rest?
How many encounters per short rest?

The expected balance of the warlock, and of any short rest resource, is roughly to multiply it by 3 uses before comparing to a long rest resource.

[stoutstien]

They are indeed insane. This is part of why GGtR is one of the three books I outright ban in my games (along with SCAG and Acquisitions Incorporated).

Most of the items in GGtR are bad but the subclasses and races don't seem that bad.
those braces are a no-go for me as well.

[Bigmouth]

How much campaign time do you plan to spend at 17+?

Generally speaking comparisons should be done in the Tier 2 levels, 5-10, since that's where most play happens. With a look at the level 11 boost for Tier 3, if the campaign expects to go that long. And warlocks comparisons generally suffer the most in Tier 2.

Don't get me wrong, I love Warlocks and think they are perfectly fine. But that doesn't mean I think level 20 comparisons are the way to go.

How much time at 17+ do I plan on? None. I really don't like high level D&D. But my friend always loves to discuss the game at that level. (I've tried over the last 30 years to get him to change. So far no luck. ) In the 5-10 levels, the Warlock EB is definitely outdamaged by the Gloomstalker with Sharpshooter. (17.40 vs 24.61 3rnd average (See Note 2))

How many short rests are you getting per long rest?
How many encounters per short rest?

The expected balance of the warlock, and of any short rest resource, is roughly to multiply it by 3 uses before comparing to a long rest resource.

As far as the short rest vs long rest economy, it is totally screwed up in our game, which I am sure contributes to my friend's dissatisfaction. I have discussed it with the group. Gone over options. Currently we are trying out 10 minute short rests. The party just doesn't take them. I've offered to double the warlock's spell slots to match our play style better, but he's declined so far. The campaign is mainly outdoors with a ton of back and forth travel. I've offered hooks into 'dungeons' where I could get more of the short vs long economy going, but they have happily avoided these. (even collapsing tunnel entrances repeatedly to seal off those choices.) I regularly ask how everyone is enjoying things and if there are things I can change up to improve the game. Everyone is happy with the game and no one but me is bothered by the action economy. I have offered to help the warlock simply 're-imagine' the warlock into another class, letting him keep the familiar and the telepathy. So the argument about EB vs Bow isn't really about convincing him that warlocks are great so he is happy with his character choice. It's just a silly disccusion between lifelong friends more than anything.



Note 2: In the 5th level spreadsheet comarison, I'm using 16 Dex ranger and 18 Cha Warlock which assumes our ranger bought Sharpshooter at 4th and the warlock pumped up his Cha.

[Yunru]

With the number of short rests : Remember that 2 per day is the average. It's okay to have less in a day as long as there's times when there's more in a day. More will shine the spotlight on short rest characters, less will shine the spotlight on long rest characters.

Also note that characters don't take rests, rests are just a time of inaction. And if they're travelling by vehicle, that certainly can qualify for a short rest.

[MaxWilson]

I'm surprised Crossbow Expert hasn't made an appearance yet on this thread. Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert Gloomstalker is getting an effective four attacks per round by level 11 (five on the first round of combat), where the pure class warlock is only getting 4.

The most important thing the warlock has going for it is all of the riders on Eldritch Blast, not the damage itself. A Ranger can cast Spike Growth, but a warlock can Agonizing Repelling Blast of Lethargy an enemy across that spike growth for d10+5+4d4(20) HP of damage per hit, without even spending any of his spell slots or his concentration.

The ranger is a better summoner (Conjure Animals) but of course at high levels the warlock gets Forcecage/True Polymorph and the ranger doesn't.

At level 17?
The Ranger's damage hasn't gone up. But the basic Warlock is now putting out 56. So they're even after 2 rounds.
The magic item difference is actually in the warlocks favor: +3 bow vs. +3 rod? Ranger gets 6 extra damage, warlock gets 12.

Rod of the Pact Keeper doesn't increase damage, only to-hit, spell DCs, and 1 warlock slot per long rest.

[Daithi]

EB is fantastic and puts out damage above basically everything that's not a -5/10-based build.

It's a lot closer than you're implying. The only way you're massively exceeding the warlock is if you're going gloomstalker and have the extra attack.
At level 11, max stats:
A sharp shooter GS Ranger with longbow & hunter's mark is doing 3x(d8+d6+15). 69 damage round 1 (nice). 46 per-round after.
He's also got -3 to hit but gets to re-roll one miss.

Warlock with Hex and Agonizing 3x(d10+d6+5). 42 per round.
(If it's a hexblade they're could curse in and do 43.5 in the first round, adding hex in the second round for 54 thereafter, not counting extra crits of course.)

At level 17?
The Ranger's damage hasn't gone up. But the basic Warlock is now putting out 56. So they're even after 2 rounds.
The magic item difference is actually in the warlocks favor: +3 bow vs. +3 rod? Ranger gets 6 extra damage, warlock gets 12.

Everything said here is spot on. However, you can double the Warlocks damage with just a couple levels (or several) of Sorcerer. The Quickening meta-magic effectively doubles the warlock's damage. So 108 damage at 11th and 160 damage at 17th (I go Hexblade).

Plus you get invocations that can be used to extend your range or allow you to disguise yourself like Arya Stark. The Rod of the Pact Keeper could add another +3 to each bolt. This would be another +18 added to total damage at 11th level, and +24 at 17th. (I just read Max Wilson's post and he is right.) A Ring of Spell Storing is also great for warlocks, because they can load it up on a short rests. Load it up with Shield spells and you have some great AC -- especially if you're a warforged warlock.

Edit: One more thing. The Warlock can cast Darkness and with Devil's Sight see through that darkness. Many players don't like this because your own party members get blinded too. However, if your warlock is functioning as a sniper and casts the darkness on himself then he can fire his Eldritch Blast out of the darkness giving him advantage while the enemy trying to see him can't so they get disadvantage.

I've also role played Eldritch Blast as if I was firing magical arrows like Uryu Ishida, the Quincy from the Bleach anime serious. However, I've also imagined using a Tonfa as my hexblade weapon and firing off EB from the tonfa like it was a gun, and I'm a D&D version of John Wick.

[Keravath]

Everything said here is spot on. However, you can double the Warlocks damage with just a couple levels (or several) of Sorcerer. The Quickening meta-magic effectively doubles the warlock's damage. So 108 damage at 11th and 160 damage at 17th (I go Hexblade).

Plus you get invocations that can be used to extend your range or allow you to disguise yourself like Arya Stark. The Rod of the Pact Keeper could add another +3 to each bolt. This would be another +18 added to total damage at 11th level, and +24 at 17th. (I just read Max Wilson's post and he is right.) A Ring of Spell Storing is also great for warlocks, because they can load it up on a short rests. Load it up with Shield spells and you have some great AC -- especially if you're a warforged warlock.

Edit: One more thing. The Warlock can cast Darkness and with Devil's Sight see through that darkness. Many players don't like this because your own party members get blinded too. However, if your warlock is functioning as a sniper and casts the darkness on himself then he can fire his Eldritch Blast out of the darkness giving him advantage while the enemy trying to see him can't so they get disadvantage.

I've also role played Eldritch Blast as if I was firing magical arrows like Uryu Ishida, the Quincy from the Bleach anime serious. However, I've also imagined using a Tonfa as my hexblade weapon and firing off EB from the tonfa like it was a gun, and I'm a D&D version of John Wick.

Just a quick comment ... a ring of spell storing is great for a multi-classed warlock with a caster class like sorcerer. It is almost useless for a pure warlock. Warlocks ONLY have leveled spell slots. A 5th level warlock ONLY has 2x3rd level slots. If the warlock casts shield into the ring then it is cast with a 3rd level spell slot and takes up 3 spaces in the ring. The storage of the ring is based on the spell slots used to cast the spell, not the level of the spell cast.

"The level of the slot used to cast the spell determines how much space it uses."

[DarknessEternal]

Hex is not a permanent bonus. It’s going to last for two rounds at best in actual play.