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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    From what I remember reading somewhere, the rise in gluten allergies may have a great deal less to do with an increase in human sensitivity than it does a tremendous increase in the amount of gluten in our GMO wheat. Farmers wanted heartier crops, so science bred out those amber waves of grain in favor of Round-up readiness and a short, woody stalk to hold up massive kernels. The correlation isn't proven, of course (pending litigation in some high-profile cases you may have heard of if you skim the news), but I went searching for conspiracy and kept turning up progress-in-the-name-of-agriculture and good old-fashioned industrial greed.

    The science isn't hidden, but rather bragged about in publications that focus on ag. Selective breeding is as ancient as farming itself. What's newer is the massive scale, and the numbers reveal just how successful the practices have been at reducing disease and making crops and livestock with better yields over generations. The downside that we are only beginning to understand (and what big players in the industry seem keen to avoid acknowledging) is the long term effect these practices have on our food supply and us, by extension. "You are what you eat," they say, and what we may be becoming is a soup of residual hormone injections and herbicides.
    Can't speak exactly to the gluten thing (and I see the following discussions casts doubts there) but similar aspects exist to most food sensitivites and allergies. As I understand it, food allergies, and even allergies in general are, sort of, unknown before modern times. I know it has been talked about in the science community. Whether it is they are more common now, or simply went un(der)reported previously we don't really know. I think general (over)cleanliness is one factor often blamed for our overreacting immunesystems. But people in the past had less varied diets too so anyone with odd allergies would be less probable to meet their kryptonite so to speak and much more likely to not survive with no alternatives. For centuries you ate bread as your main food source or starved to death. More often than not, there was no "or" either.
    I actually some years ago had a pretty bad reaction to honeydew melon, right out of the blue, had eaten dozens that summer but then, once, one is like I'm eating sandpaper. Burning my gums and lips was the feeling I got. For a while after couldn't eat them at all. Now get occasional pangs when sucking in too much of the juciy sweet core of one.

    Scandinavians in general are more lactose tolerant as adults I recall geneticists have found. Which is where I find it hilarious we are also leading the way in lactosefree dairy products it seems. Although I'll admit, it's probably less of an issue if adults generally drink wine instead of milk as we like to say about those southern people.
    The local hospital stopped offering milk to it's staff at coffeebreaks citing the problem of providing alternatives. A sort of joke I may or may not have invented is that today a group of 4 people need 5 kinds of milk for their coffee. My parents often have at least 4 in the fridge, not counting creams...


    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    I had a guy at my job who used to insist that his nut allergy was only dangerous if he had a lot of them. In his defense he was well enough to drive himself to the doctor's office rather than taking an ambulance.
    Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2019-09-27 at 07:16 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    My wife once ate a pint of raw mushrooms. Her face blew up, and it look like she was punched in the face repeatedly. She can eat cooked mushroom and/or less mushrooms without any noticeable side-effects.

    I can eat small quantities of gluten (I probably should not) without noticing any ill-effects.

    Different folks will often have a different populations of bacteria and whatnot. Some will have more of X, and some will have less of X. Europeans tend to be able to digest cows milk, and the Japanese tend to be able to digest seaweed. We have different populations of bacteria (enzymes, or whatnot) in the gut.
    Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-09-27 at 08:32 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkrose50 View Post
    My wife once ate a pint of raw mushrooms. Her face blew up, and it look like she was punched in the face repeatedly. She can eat cooked mushroom and/or less mushrooms without any noticeable side-effects.
    I know 2 people (my mom and a friend) who can eat cooked apples, but not uncooked. Cooking them breaks down whatever it is (a protein or enzyme probably?) that causes the reaction. (Apparently it's not an allergy to apples per se, but to all trees in the birch family. Apples are just the only fruit of those trees that most people eat regularly.)

    As far as your wife and the pint of mushrooms, perhaps her body was just punishing her for eating an entire pint of them?

    Also possible, because I think mushrooms can be worse for this than most vegetables since they're so porous and soft and are harder to wash, there was something that got into that particular batch of mushrooms. Perhaps even something microbial which caused the reaction.

    Unless she's since eaten other pints of mushrooms with the same reaction. Then that's weird.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    Right, so that quote doesn't seem to be in that article? Perhaps it's in the video, I didn't watch it, but I'm confused as the article isn't saying that at all. It's in fact saying that gluten itself may not even be causing non-celiac gluten sensitivity.
    It was in a news story that I watched (likely on YouTube). Reporters often misinterpret things. I should know better, I apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    The ancient grains thing also seems wrong, as the name Celiac Disease is actually a translation from ancient greek, where it was first recorded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_disease#History
    Issues with gluten is likely a combination of things. The wheat we eat is not the same. The way we technologically process the wheat is not the same. The modern human is not the same. The way we chemically process the wheat is likely not the same. The parasites, symbiotes, and whatnot are not the same. What we eat overall is not the same, and likely interacts with the composition of all the things in our gut. The medications that we take likely mess with things in our gut.

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    I don't know about just gluten intolerance (as they have different causes) but Celiac is possibly as old as cultivated grain is. That is for celiac itself, of course, and not necessarily gluten intolerance, but still.
    From my limited knowledge Celiac is a variant shape of the surface of the small intestine that does not work well with gluten.

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    EDIT: The correct link for the above quote is here: https://firstdescents.org/fd-healthy-gluten-guide/
    This site is a non-medical page, from a group that seems to be trying to heal cancer with... adventure? (Providing opportunities to be something other than "a cancer patient" to those with cancer is an admirable goal, but they're still not a medical source.)
    I'm not sure I'd trust their medical conclusions over actual studies, unless you find the studies they're referring to, which they don't cite.
    That said, yes some grains have less gluten in them. Or none, perhaps. But it's not the processing that gives it the gluten. Raw wheat has just as much gluten as any modern, processed wheat flour.
    I think one idea is that the modern processing the wheat is different and may have an effect on how the gluten (or gluten adjacent proteins) are digested, absorbed, and/or how they may fall though the gastrointestinal tract and run amuck.

    -----

    Oh it is annoying not to know EXACTLY how or why you get sick. There are no tests that I am aware of that test for gluten sensitivity. I can take enzymes that remove (enough of) the negative digestion affect that gluten has on me. However it also seems to dull my mind. For whatever reason(s) it is just best practice for me to make a conscious decision to avoid gluten.

    Avoiding all gluten is nigh impossible. Gluten is just everywhere. It is detectable in just about everything that we eat. Even foods that are made from ingredients that do not contain gluten, contain trace amounts of gluten for various reasons (gluten plants sneaking in and growing with non-gluten plants, and/or packaging facilities packaging gluten and non-gluten foodstuffs in the same building). Even “gluten free” foods contain trace amounts of gluten.

    For whatever reason there is an uptick in folks who when they do not eat gluten, just feel better for whatever unknown reason.

    Folks can try some sort of elimination diet. Frankly it could be food-coloring or preservatives found in gluten processed foods that are causing the problems. If the case, then eliminating all gluten fixes it, then simplifying things by saying I am gluten intolerant is efficient. It would be nice to know EXACTLY what the cause of the problems are. Apparently we have scientists and doctors working on figuring out this dilemma.
    Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-09-27 at 02:55 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    As I understand it, food allergies, and even allergies in general are, sort of, unknown before modern times. I know it has been talked about in the science community. Whether it is they are more common now, or simply went un(der)reported previously we don't really know.
    Depends on exactly what you mean by allergies. In countries where the large majority of the adult population are lactose intolerant, the culture's cooking is virtually diary free. From personal experience, traditional Chinese and Japanese cooking has pretty much no dairy (and what dairy there is, is from cultural imports from western nations, like chocolate and ice cream).

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Depends on exactly what you mean by allergies. In countries where the large majority of the adult population are lactose intolerant, the culture's cooking is virtually diary free. From personal experience, traditional Chinese and Japanese cooking has pretty much no dairy (and what dairy there is, is from cultural imports from western nations, like chocolate and ice cream).
    Fun fact: lactose tolerance is a genetic aberration only found in about 45% 35% of humans. In most mammals, adults cannot digest lactose at all.

    Edit: 65 + 45 != 100. Derp.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2019-09-27 at 11:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Depends on exactly what you mean by allergies. In countries where the large majority of the adult population are lactose intolerant, the culture's cooking is virtually diary free. From personal experience, traditional Chinese and Japanese cooking has pretty much no dairy (and what dairy there is, is from cultural imports from western nations, like chocolate and ice cream).
    Intolerance =/= allergy. Not even close. A food intolerance is a lack of ability to digest something, causing distress as your body has to eject material it isn't set up for. An allergy is an autoimmune response where your body decides it is under attack and reacts like you are sick, up to and including dropping its nuclear options into your bloodstream. The former can be uncomfortable and distressing but allergies can kill. For example Celiac disease, which is more like an allergy than gluten intolerance, causes you small intestine to become stripped of villi, leading to serious problems in nutrition uptake. Meanwhile a milk allergy doesn't give you painful gas and cramps, it can cause your throat to swell shut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Fun fact: lactose tolerance is a genetic aberration only found in about 45% of humans. In most mammals, adults cannot digest lactose at all.
    I had read that it was 65%, but it is also not uniform, for instance lactose intolerance is astonishingly rare if you have British or Irish heritage, more common in mainland Europe and Russia and Asia it can be less than 10% who can digest lactose.

    There is a lot of evidence to suggest we have been eating milk products and slowly been getting better at it for most of recorded history, stating with cheese (which is lower in lactose) and moving on to the wet stuff. There are even temple records from ancient Egypt listing dozens of regional varieties of cheese, its surprisingly interesting.

    In a related point, we have recently discovered that feeding babies animal milk has been a thing for 3000 years. (Anyone else find it cute that, even 3000 years ago, we put animal faces on baby things?)
    Last edited by Evil DM Mark3; 2019-09-27 at 11:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil DM Mark3 View Post
    I had read that it was 65%, but it is also not uniform, for instance lactose intolerance is astonishingly rare if you have British or Irish heritage, more common in mainland Europe and Russia and Asia it can be less than 10% who can digest lactose.
    Ah, I got it wrong - 65% of people have lactose intolerance, so I should have put 35%. My bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkrose50 View Post
    It was in a news story that I watched (likely on YouTube). Reporters often misinterpret things. I should know better, I apologize.
    No worries. I was mostly just confused.

    Issues with gluten is likely a combination of things. The wheat we eat is not the same. The way we technologically process the wheat is not the same. The modern human is not the same. The way we chemically process the wheat is likely not the same. The parasites, symbiotes, and whatnot are not the same. What we eat overall is not the same, and likely interacts with the composition of all the things in our gut. The medications that we take likely mess with things in our gut.
    All true. But what hasn't really changed is the grain itself. (It has a bit, but not as much as you might think.) Bread recipes from 100 years ago or more (which are very dependent on gluten content) still work today.

    As for ancient grains, some may be gluten-free or low-gluten. It has nothing to do with the way they're processed, though. Gluten is a protein in the grain, it isn't created or destroyed by processing.

    The other things you mention? Yes, they could all be factors. I was just disagreeing with what that statement was declaring.

    I think one idea is that the modern processing the wheat is different and may have an effect on how the gluten (or gluten adjacent proteins) are digested, absorbed, and/or how they may fall though the gastrointestinal tract and run amuck.
    While I admittedly haven't done an extensive search, I can't find anything suggesting that the processing affects it. I'm pretty sure if you took a stalk of wheat and just ground it up and fed it to a gluten intolerant person, they'd still have the same issues? I'm can't say that it's for sure wrong, but I'm skeptical.

    I did find statements that gluten intolerant people should try to incorporate more (gluten-free) whole grains in their diet, since a lot of gluten-free products are just starch and not fibre.

    Don't mind me too much, though. I'm just a huge skeptic. Do what works for you.

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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    Don't mind me too much, though. I'm just a huge skeptic. Do what works for you.
    I can see measurable results.

    I bought an enzyme that helps in digesting gluten. It worked (to a degree). All the same I did not feel well after (the loss of mental clarity, overall sluggishness). I think that I might need to find the right combination of enzymes. It could be that the gluten to enzyme ratio was off. Evidently I can introduce the enzymes and hope that they eventually take hold. Perhaps I will try taking the enzymes daily for a year, and then try eating gluten.

    I have a referral to see a dietitian. I hope that I can find one that knows something that is useful to me.
    Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-09-27 at 03:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Hey, darkrose50, try King Arthur Gluten-Free brownie mix. Verified GF facility according to the box, but you don't seem that sensitive unless I misunderstood something. Also, which enzymes are you using? I've been using some to eat fruit I couldn't before, curious what would work for gluten as I have a very bad gluten intolerance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil DM Mark3 View Post
    Meanwhile a milk allergy doesn't give you painful gas and cramps, it can cause your throat to swell shut.

    I had read that it was 65%, but it is also not uniform, for instance lactose intolerance is astonishingly rare if you have British or Irish heritage, more common in mainland Europe and Russia and Asia it can be less than 10% who can digest lactose.
    It's really not uniform. Populations descended from either Scandinavian or certain North African groups are far more likely to retain lactose tolerance into adulthood than others. Where I'm from, there's a store that sells Hispanic and Asian foods and the section for lactose free milk is bigger than the lactose-containing milk.

    Many types of cheese and yogurt reduce the amount of lactose significantly, so their use doesn't suggest that the population is any good at the lactose thing. Different types of milk, particularly goat, might have reduced amounts of lactose. (I'm not really sure as modern goat's milk is prepared differently as it is very quickly pasturized)

    However, allergies can indeed cause vomiting and other GI symptoms without anaphylactic shock. The throat swelling isn't the only sign of an allergy, as different systems can decide to freak out and try to murder you. Skin rashes, vomiting and GI upset are all symptoms of an allergy and can be separate from each other. So if a food makes you vomit, you might still want to get checked for an allergy.

    Back to the OP: Three things I stumbled upon: Cheese, beer, and white sugar aren't typically vegan. Most white sugar is processed with bone char and while it doesn't get into the finished product, that's probably doesn't count as vegetarian or vegan by most standards. Cheese can be processed with vegetarian rennet, but isn't also. Beer might use fish product to clarify the end product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil DM Mark3 View Post
    Intolerance =/= allergy. Not even close.
    I do know the difference - give me enough time and I can probably recite the relevant immune response pathway.

    I was just asking for clarification as I've met people who conflate the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    It's really not uniform. Populations descended from either Scandinavian or certain North African groups are far more likely to retain lactose tolerance into adulthood than others. Where I'm from, there's a store that sells Hispanic and Asian foods and the section for lactose free milk is bigger than the lactose-containing milk.
    Yes, curse you lactase persistence mutants and your innate ability to eat that tasty, tasty cheese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I was just asking for clarification as I've met people who conflate the two.
    Ah, one of those "we both mean the same things differnt ways" moments.

    I first got the difference made clear to me by a Jewish friend who explained they had to avoid milk entierly for reasons that had nothing to do with keeping Kosher. Apparently they have had more than a few people assume that, because they know Kashrut they knew what my friend could eat and they had some very near misses and one A&E trip.
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Yes, curse you lactase persistence mutants and your innate ability to eat that tasty, tasty cheese.
    Cheese aged more than six months tends to be pretty low on lactose. Combine that with the enzyme pills (lactaid brand seems to work for most people) and most non-lactose tolerant people I have met (and I live in an area where only about half of the population is lactose tolerant, give or take a few percentages) can handle cheese.

    Or just get some air fresheners depending on your symptoms.
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Yes, curse you lactase persistence mutants and your innate ability to eat that tasty, tasty cheese.
    I'm always more than happy to share my milkloaf.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkrose50 View Post
    I cannot eat much wheat without it effecting my digestion and/or my mind (gluten does not play well with autism).
    It was always my understanding that the connection between digestive troubles and autism was one of the fabrications of discredited quack Andrew Wakefield, who lost his medical license after publishing several alleged "research" papers on autism that later turned out to be completely made up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    It was always my understanding that the connection between digestive troubles and autism was one of the fabrications of discredited quack Andrew Wakefield, who lost his medical license after publishing several alleged "research" papers on autism that later turned out to be completely made up.
    There recently were NYT articles on the connection between brain and intestine. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/h...-dementia.html (I was actually looking for a different one, but this looks fairly close).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    It was always my understanding that the connection between digestive troubles and autism was one of the fabrications of discredited quack Andrew Wakefield, who lost his medical license after publishing several alleged "research" papers on autism that later turned out to be completely made up.
    To clarify Vindayan's comments a bit, there's evidence that gut microbiome has an effect on brain chemistry. Whether there's a specific link to autism is not yet known, only that of all the people with autism assessed in these studies, it's been noticed that they have significantly different gut biome.
    The papers I've read don't indicate how the biome is different or whether those people have the same differences to non-autistic people, just that they're different.

    Some papers to support research into this whole thing:

    The Brain-Gut-Microbiome Axis, Martin et al.
    The Intestinal Microbiota Affect Central Levels of Brain-Derived Neurotropic Factor and Behavior in Mice, Bercik et al.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    There recently were NYT articles on the connection between brain and intestine. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/h...-dementia.html (I was actually looking for a different one, but this looks fairly close).
    I tend not to trust news articles about diet or psychology. Even if based on fact they tend to be sensationalized.

    That said it does seem to be mentioned - albeit only in passing - on wikipedia's article on gluten related disorders in a list of things which may be exacerbated by gluten sensitivity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Yes, curse you lactase persistence mutants and your innate ability to eat that tasty, tasty cheese.
    A super power seldom brought up in X-Men. AFAIK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    I tend not to trust news articles about diet or psychology. Even if based on fact they tend to be sensationalized.
    How about the peer reviewed papers I linked?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    A super power seldom brought up in X-Men. AFAIK.
    It's probably on par with the other most common super power possessed by super heroes - the ability to squeeze into those skin tight spandex costumes.

    Not linking the TV tropes page.

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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    No. There is no secret conspiracy to force vegans to eat meat and diery. if you're that worried about it choose products that are labeled vegeterian or vegan or whatever.

    However you can't expect the whole ecconomy to function based on your dietary choices. People love the taste of meat. i personally respect that some people don't want to consume it for whatever personal reasons; i expect the same respect in return in my own choice to do so.

    So with all respect if some product is not explicitelly labbeled as a Vegan or Vegeterian product DO assume it does have some animal products; otherwise it would be labbled as such since "Vegan" and "Vegeterian" have a stable consumer base witch translates to "money" and no company worth the name would want to loose said money.

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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    No. There is no secret conspiracy to force vegans to eat meat and diery. if you're that worried about it choose products that are labeled vegeterian or vegan or whatever.
    There are innumerable products that are vegetarian that are not labeled "vegetarian." Quick and easy example, Pringles are vegan. It's not really something they advertise. Even more fun with this example, a lot of Pringles flavors are not vegan. Again, unlabeled.

    The question isn't "what's up with the secret conspiracy to force vegans to eat meat and dairy." The question, inasmuch as there is one, is "why do companies label things "natural ingredients" or "artificial ingredients" instead of listing the actual ingredients.

    For vegetarians and vegans, they've made a choice so the onus is on them to look into what they purchase to make sure it fits with their choice. OP isn't saying he doesn't want to do that.he is explicitly already doing that. His issue is that even when doing that, meat products can be unlisted under an umbrella term. That's a fair complaint.
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    There is an argument to be made that what you don't know can't hurt you.

    If there is a hidden micro-particle of a meat by-product hidden in the food you're eating, how does that affect you? You're not allergic to meat, so it's not going to harm you. If you're taking a moral stand against eating meat, isn't it really getting lost in the weeds finding the single (hypothetically) Kraft product that doesn't have meat in it even when purchasing said product means you're still supporting a business that profits significantly off of meat and meat by-products?

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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The question isn't "what's up with the secret conspiracy to force vegans to eat meat and dairy." The question, inasmuch as there is one, is "why do companies label things "natural ingredients" or "artificial ingredients" instead of listing the actual ingredients.
    In the UK any packaged food has to have the full list of ingredients on it by law, is that not the case in the States?

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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    There are innumerable products that are vegetarian that are not labeled "vegetarian." Quick and easy example, Pringles are vegan. It's not really something they advertise. Even more fun with this example, a lot of Pringles flavors are not vegan. Again, unlabeled.
    Really? They are in the UK.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    In the UK any packaged food has to have the full list of ingredients on it by law, is that not the case in the States?
    I think they do, but even in the UK there is a thing you can call Carmine, cochineal, cochineal extract or E120. There is another thing called Erythrosine or E127. They both do the same thing. Can you spot the animal product without google?

    While a happy carnivore, I do have a lot of sympathy with food lableing issues due to my allergies. Companies are very bad at doing what is helpful unless it can net them sales, as per the Pringles example above.
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil DM Mark3 View Post
    Companies are very bad at doing what is helpful unless it can net them sales, as per the Pringles example above.
    Or cost them a lot of money, as Pret a Manger found out.

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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    In answer to the OP and back on topic slightly. The way to figure out if something is likely to haven hidden animal products is to think through what is required to produce the food and at what steps they use animal products in those processes and at what steps you would see vegan or vegetarian alternatives in those processes. For example if a food would require an emulsifier and it doesn't contain animal products you'd probably see sunflower lecithin or gum of some kind as an ingredient. Basically the more you know about cooking the better you'll be able to figure out what's in something and why it's in something.
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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post

    Back to the OP: Three things I stumbled upon: Cheese, beer, and white sugar aren't typically vegan. Most white sugar is processed with bone char and while it doesn't get into the finished product, that's probably doesn't count as vegetarian or vegan by most standards. Cheese can be processed with vegetarian rennet, but isn't also. Beer might use fish product to clarify the end product.
    The same goes for wine. Often some kind of animal product like gelatine is used for filtering.


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    Default Re: Is there any way to avoid hidden animal products?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    It was always my understanding that the connection between digestive troubles and autism was one of the fabrications of discredited quack Andrew Wakefield, who lost his medical license after publishing several alleged "research" papers on autism that later turned out to be completely made up.
    [1] Some people with autism have a chameleon-like ability that affords them the ability to blend in as neurotypical. It requires paying attention to those around you, paying attention to yourself, and paying attention to what and how you say something. It is like having a poker face on at all times. This requires being aware of others, being self aware, and self-monitoring.

    [2] This chameleon-like ability (paying attention to others while being self aware and self monitoring) uses mental processing power, uses calories, and is tiring. This chameleon-like ability is often subconscious and is often on auto-pilot. In fact I did not know that I had this blending-in ability until I was told, and now I can better monitor it. Like driving, it eventually just becomes a skill that you do unconsciously. Many people with autism and this chameleon-like ability just assume that everyone thinks like this. I work over the phone because social interaction uses energy.

    [3] If I reduce my mental processing power by being stressed or tired, then I may loose some portion of my chameleon-like ability (part of being self aware and self monitoring). Self monitoring may be lessoned, social skills may be effected, OCD may kick in, and what-have-you.

    [4] So if someone (a) has autism and (b) has a chameleon-like ability to appear to be neurotypical, then (c) anything that effects mental processing power will cause [the noticeable appearance of] autism to be less under control (as in the ability to constantly monitor body-language, words spoken, tone, volume, word choice, and so on to appear to be neurotypical).

    [5] So if gluten [or whatever] (a) negatively effects a person's mental processing power, (b) the individual had autism, and (c) the individual has a chameleon-like ability to appear to be neurotypical, then (d) taking gluten would effect mental processing power, and (e) it would appear to cause/effect [the noticeable appearance of] autism. Lack of sleep or other stressors may affect [the noticeable appearance of] autism in much the same way. Lack of sleep does not cause [the noticeable appearance of] autism in the population, obviously. Similar idea, I think.

    [6] Now this chameleon-like ability to appear to be neurotypical is not universal, nor is it conscious. So removing gluten from the diet [or whatever is an intolerance, if anything] could really help some people with social interactions (and self-awareness overall) if these people have the chameleon-like ability. Removing gluten [or whatever is an intolerance, if anything] would help the chameleon-like ability, if the person with autism does not have enough of that skill to begin with.

    I can see one mother swear on gluten-free and/or dairy-free diet up, down and sideways to another mother who tries it and does not get the desired social interactional results. The kid that changed his or her diet, has the chameleon-like ability, and showed increased desired behaviors, would not likely know why it helped, and would likely say that they were not doing anything differently, but likely they were unconsciously effected because they were more-well. To the mother (and just about everyone else) it would seem that the gluten caused the autism, when all it did was to noticeably lesson the chameleon-like ability to appear to be neurotypical . . . they still might be more-well.

    I was quite surprised when I learned that folks do not often think about what they are thinking or what they are doing. It is shocking to me that being self aware is not even a thing for some people. Now this is not an on/off thing, as with most things it is on a spectrum.

    It is somewhat common for actors to have autism.

    Something negatively affecting mental clarity (such as stomach issues) could be the difference between having a job and not having a job. Something crazy like 80% of folks with autism do not have jobs. This is no small thing. They should keep looking into this.
    Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-10-18 at 02:28 PM.

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