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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    When he hires bounty hunters to help the Empire find them after they seemingly escape from his fleet. Which is a valid legal action under the Empire.
    Itís legal action in the sense that itís not illegal and it could be used as part of the legal process but it exists outside of it as examplified by Jabba hiring bounty hunters and Vader not taking Han to any kind of trial but using him as bait and then handing him over to a crimelord.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Itís legal action in the sense that itís not illegal and it could be used as part of the legal process but it exists outside of it as examplified by Jabba hiring bounty hunters and Vader not taking Han to any kind of trial but using him as bait and then handing him over to a crimelord.
    Legal in the sense that it's totally allowed, or else when Jabba does it it'd be called "kidnapping." Han stole from Jabba, effectively, so Jabba can put a bounty on Han's head. Vader was using his government fleet to capture Han, and when that failed he hired Bounty Hunters to help him capture Han. The existence of a third party doesn't meant Vader wasn't already pursuing legal action against Han, and itself was further legal action against Han.

    More to the point, Han is an enemy combatant. What are you expecting, for Vader to serve him with a court summons?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-24 at 12:52 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You are either picking and choosing from the EU or have a very bleak view of what "a normal county" does, but the empire certainly used a lot of propaganda. If only because of the obvious historical inspiration.
    It's been a long time since I read the EU stuff, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but the propaganda I remember from the books and stuff wasn't that crazy. It was a lot of stuff like "Rebels are blowing up our stuff so they are terrorists" which was true in the sense of Rebels were blowing stuff up, and intended to change the government by armed rebellion. 'Terrorist" might be a little loaded but not out of line with what a lot of governments accuse their enemies of. The big lie I remember them going for was "Alderaan was supplying the Rebels with material aid, spies, and goods, so we blew it up", while that seemed to be the Organa family's private efforts as far as we saw. But as Bail was the King and Leia was a Princess, there's a certain amount of "what the leaders do constitutes what the planet does", especially in terms of military action.

    There was some shows of military power, like loads of stormtroopers in military formations or overwhelming numbers of ships, or indeed Death Stars, that were clearly intended to show a powerful and unified Empire, but again, that doesn't seem out of line with what most powerful countries that can afford large armies do.

    Tarquin's rule by fear rather than actual force thing can be seen as propaganda, but it was predicated on the 'frame Alderaan' narrative to really be effective as an anti-rebellion factor.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Legal in the sense that it's totally allowed, or else when Jabba does it it'd be called "kidnapping." Han stole from Jabba, effectively, so Jabba can put a bounty on Han's head. Vader was using his government fleet to capture Han, and when that failed he hired Bounty Hunters to help him capture Han. The existence of a third party doesn't meant Vader wasn't already pursuing legal action against Han, and itself was further legal action against Han.
    Hmm....Isn't legality a mere technicality when rule of law does not apply?
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Hmm....Isn't legality a mere technicality when rule of law does not apply?
    I will make it legal.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I will make it legal.
    Make what legal? Transporting tibanna gas solo in carbonite?
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Which were none. Vader and Jabba just put a price on his head.
    Not true! Han agreed to smuggle goods for Jabba with the understanding that he'd be responsible for their value. Then he dumped them to save himself. At least, that's what he tells Jabba; as I said above, it's entirely reasonable for Jabba, knowing Han's character, to conclude that he simply stole them, and in any case Jabba clearly cannot just allow his goods to disappear without consequences or his smugglers would steal from him constantly.

    Therefore Han owes Jabba money. And it's not, overall, some unfair or unjust debt - Han seems reasonably well-to-do; he has his own ship and is pretty well-known in his field. Nobody forced him to smuggle for Jabba. He did it because it paid well and he wanted the money, which came with an attendant risk. (Again, if he was, like, a starving widow who was forced to borrow from Jabba, it'd be different. But Solo is a rogue who just wanted a quick buck.) From Fett's perspective Han is just another deadbeat who fell into debt due to his own risk-taking actions, then skipped town to avoid paying it. Obviously chasing him down is not good, but I'm not seeing how it's evil.

    Neutral characters are supposed to be morally-grey. They're not going to hurt people for no reason, and they tend to have moral codes of their own that will limit what they'd do for a quick buck or the like, but they're still willing to work with evil people, do evil things, or ignore evil up to a point, otherwise they'd be Good. "No compromise with the Empire. Not ever" is obviously not a neutral stance.

    As for Gannji&Enor, have you seen Bleedhaven?
    Is the argument that "Bleedhaven exists, therefore nobody should ever work inside the Empire of Blood?" Because regular-crime still happens! Murders occur. And some method of preventing them is still necessary. Completely refusing any sort of work within Imperial society would be Good, not Neutral - keeping your head down and going about your business while trying to adhere to a very baseline moral code in your own actions is textbook Neutral.

    As far as Gannji and Enor know, Nale is guilty of murder. It's reasonably Neutral of them to say "all right, the Empire sucks, but Nale is still scum and it's fine to bring him in for a quick buck."

    Again, picture the hypothetical where they actually got the right guy - the OOTS is fighting Nale, starts losing, and suddenly Gannji and Enor leap in, nab him, say "this guy is wanted for murder and treason in the Empire of Blood", and drag him off. Would people consider them evil then? It seems silly to say that they're evil simply for being wrong.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-10-24 at 02:20 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    I think if Gannji and Enor had that much of an insight into how justice operates in the Empire of Blood, at the very least they wouldn't have given themselves up or trusted their papers to get them out of trouble. That they thought Nale was a legitimate target no matter how bad the Empire looked to them, and that they weren't aware of just how awful the Empire truly was, strikes me as pretty plausible.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Make what legal? Transporting tibanna gas solo in carbonite?
    OK, here's my big issue. They make a big deal about how they don't know if that's going to work, and he may die, and it's experimental and everything. And then later on they just throw everyone in carbonite left right and center, regardless of the time period. Playing Bounty Hunter in SWTOR? Carbonite gauntlet, don't even need those life sign sensors on it, just spray them down for live transport! Want to travel space without the wait? Just slap yourself in carbonite! Anakin Skywalker needs to infiltrate somewhere? Carbonite!

    The Force Awakens was the only material who used it well, because it counted as killing someone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    OK, here's my big issue. They make a big deal about how they don't know if that's going to work, and he may die, and it's experimental and everything. And then later on they just throw everyone in carbonite left right and center, regardless of the time period. Playing Bounty Hunter in SWTOR? Carbonite gauntlet, don't even need those life sign sensors on it, just spray them down for live transport! Want to travel space without the wait? Just slap yourself in carbonite! Anakin Skywalker needs to infiltrate somewhere? Carbonite!
    Did we ever actually see them transport tibanna gas in carbonite, like carbon-freezing was supposedly designed for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Force Awakens was the only material who used it well, because it counted as killing someone.
    Does Mysteries of the Sith specifically having a carbonite weapon count?
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Did we ever actually see them transport tibanna gas in carbonite, like carbon-freezing was supposedly designed for?
    I'd imagine it would look like a flat block of carbonite, really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Does Mysteries of the Sith specifically having a carbonite weapon count?
    Nothing counts until I've read it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Nothing counts until I've read it.
    I object to your medium bias. At least it's not a large bias....
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I object to your medium bias. At least it's not a large bias....
    Ya know, despite how I've heard nothing but good things, I've never actually played a game with Kyle Katarn in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Source? Also remember, they tried to kill Roy for asking questions.
    Tried to kill Roy because they thought he was going to retaliate against them (potentially lethally so) for taking in a bounty. A bounty they thought was a murderer and a traitor. And if they'd gotten the right guy they would have been correct.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2019-10-24 at 03:19 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Ya know, despite how I've heard nothing but good things, I've never actually played a game with Kyle Katarn in it.
    Words cannot express my disapointment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Words cannot express my disapointment.
    And yet nobody ever tells me they're appointed in me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And yet nobody ever tells me they're appointed in me.
    That's because your calendar is too full for an appointment.
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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    That's because your calendar is too full for an appointment.
    That's ok, I have a great deal of patients.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's ok, I have a great deal of patients.
    Is that "ok" for you, or for them?

    Unrelated, I could say things that are not good about games with Kyle Katarn in them, if you'd like o_o
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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Is that "ok" for you, or for them?
    Me, they get eaten when I get bored.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Unrelated, I could say things that are not good about games with Kyle Katarn in them, if you'd like o_o
    Is it about the jraphics?
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Is it about the jraphics?
    No. (Nor about the graphics.)
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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Unrelated, I could say things that are not good about games with Kyle Katarn in them, if you'd like o_o
    But why would you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But why would you?
    Because I can't do anything about Peelee never playing a game with Kyle Katarn in it, but I can do something about never hearing anything but good things o_o Also because Jedi Knight had definite bad points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Because I can't do anything about Peelee never playing a game with Kyle Katarn in it, but I can do something about never hearing anything but good things o_o Also because Jedi Knight had definite bad points.
    I wouldnít know, Iíve only played Jedi Outcast.

    Iím sorry, Dark Forces III: Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast.

    I should probably try Dark Forces IV: Jedi Knight III: Jedi Outcast II: Jedi Academy, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I wouldnít know, Iíve only played Jedi Outcast.

    Iím sorry, Dark Forces III: Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast.

    I should probably try Dark Forces IV: Jedi Knight III: Jedi Outcast II: Jedi Academy, though.
    First, I only played Jedi Outcast a few times, and I never got far...it and Jedi Academy are also somewhere on my list of things to buy and try to get through at some point when I don't have anything better to waste my time on (so, you know, pretty low compared to the other lists).

    Second, does that make the Moldy Crow a partridge in a pear tree?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    First, I only played Jedi Outcast a few times, and I never got far...it and Jedi Academy are also somewhere on my list of things to buy and try to get through at some point when I don't have anything better to waste my time on (so, you know, pretty low compared to the other lists).
    The first few levels are pure FPS and pretty hard. Once you get your lightsaber, though, well... this is where the fun begins (except for those forcedammed snipers in Nar Shaada (turns out you can zoom further with your own sniper rifle which makes getting rid of them a breeze, something I didnít figure out after finishing that game twice and getting killed countless times in this level but a friend guessed instantly)).

    Second, does that make the Moldy Crow a partridge in a pear tree?
    Google tells me that partridge thing is something you say after a long list for some reason? In that case, the Ravenís Claw would be a better fit since itís their second spaceship and all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Google tells me that partridge thing is something you say after a long list for some reason? In that case, the Ravenís Claw would be a better fit since itís their second spaceship and all.
    I feel like I'm about to get Woooooshed, but since you said you Googled it...

    The Partridge in a Pear Tree is the first verse of The 12 Days of Christmas, upon each day the receiver gets more gifts, including reiterating every previous days' worth of gifts. Thus it is also the line that gets repeated the most. The "Say it after a long list" thing is to imply the list is so long it compares to one of the last verses of The Twelve Days of Christmas.
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    I'm not even a diehard Star Wars fan, but doesn't Vader make a point to tell Boba "No disintegrations"? Implying that he has disintegrated people before, and even makes a habit of it? To me, that seems like a much more weighty example of his moral alignment than his views on smuggling.
    Quote Originally Posted by BootStrapTommy View Post
    Related thought: 5e D&D PC with Hermit background. Discovery is that the universe is just a 5e D&D campaign. Trade in herbal kit proficiency for a gaming set proficiency: 5e D&D. Your "scroll case stuffed full of notes of you studies"? The PHB, DMG, and MM.
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Bob View Post
    I'm not even a diehard Star Wars fan, but doesn't Vader make a point to tell Boba "No disintegrations"? Implying that he has disintegrated people before, and even makes a habit of it?
    Eh, I'm never sold on this. First, everything else he's saying goes for all the bounty hunters, and he's moving as he talks. He ends up at Fett, and stresses no disintegrations, but was he actually speaking to Fett directly or was that for everyone?

    Then, even assuming it was for Fett specifically, it's very possible that the last bounty Fett had was disintegrated, and we don't know if whoever he did disintegrate had an "alive only" bounty on them. There is certainly no indication that he makes a habit out of it.
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  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: How do we feel about Therkla?

    Plus, they could have been really evil! Heck, perhaps they boasted to Fett that even if he brought them in, they'd still be able to use their connections to continue getting away with their horrible crimes (including murder), and that there was nothing he could do about it.

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