Need help optimizing a Spellthief/Spellsword build

[Silvercrys]

Channeling spells isn't a very useful schtick when you only have 4th level Spellthief spells, I think. Not many of them are really worth channeling, so you're at the DM's mercy because you can only really channel whatever you steal. Burning them for smite effects with Jade Phoenix Mage is passable, though, something like:

(Trickster?) Spellthief 9/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 would get 4th or 6th level Spellthief spells, 3rd level maneuvers at Swordsage 1 + 8th level maneuvers at JPM 10, can steal 9th level spells even if you have a DM who won't allow Master Spellthief to apply to the level of spell you can hold (myself, I think that since it stacks for the purpose of the level of spell you can steal, and holding the spell is part of "Steal Spells", it should probably stack, but again I'm pretty permissive heh).

I do like the nova potential from getting 3d6 sneak attack + channeling a Fireball + burning a 9th level spell for JPM Arcane Strike + using a high level standard action Strike, but it's reaaaally hard without fractional BAB.

Something like Trickster Spellthief 4/Warblade 1/Spellsinger 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM +3 does it, but it's reaaaally feat intensive and only has 1d6 sneak attack unless you can take Martial Study and Martial Stance, but all of your early feats are tied up qualifying for stuff and you have to play an outsider to get proficiency in martial ranged weapons + take a feat to get heavy armor (or be a Crusader instead of a Warblade but I hate the Crusader maneuver recovery mechanic), and you need at least one flaw unless I miscounted.

[KingBearKing]

Things like fractional BAB or Gestalt builds would definitely help something with this many classes , but that's really at the discretion of the DM and not something I want to rely on.

I really hate that heavy armor requirement for Spellsword. It's silly for a character who would MAYBE use medium armor at most. That's another thing I could potentially ask the DM to look the other way on Lol. I wish there was a way to get a channel-like ability with just a minor dip since its really only the novelty that I'm after. Those other three levels of Spellsword are frankly wasted real estate.

I could give up on channeling and instead go for more maneuvers and boosting abilities like abjchamp and JPM. Remove Spellsword from that last build you listed and instead dump those levels into one of the other classes.

[KingBearKing]

I'm fine with taking flaws if the game allows them. Always good roleplay fodder. And I'm fine playing a human if I really need the extra feats. Though I'll miss mimicry and naming my Kenku "Kaw" so that when asked his name he just screams at people.

[KingBearKing]

Question: if I steal a 9th level spell but cannot cast it, could I instead burn it for +4 attack and 9D10 using Arcane Wrath?

[Silvercrys]

Question: if I steal a 9th level spell but cannot cast it, could I instead burn it for +4 attack and 9D10 using Arcane Wrath?

I don't think so, no. It isn't a prepared spell or spell slot according to the Steal Spells ability, it's its own weird thing.

Duskblade 3 can channel any touch spell, just can't do a Fireball or whatever so you're pretty much stuck with metamagicked Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch. Trickster Spellthief 6/Duskblade 3/Spellsinger 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsinger +4 is uh. A thing. Not much different from Trickster Spellthief 4/Fighter 1/Spellsinger 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurabt Champion 5/Spellsinger +4 though. Has 2 more held spell levels by the literal reading and a worse channeling ability, essentially.

Spellthief 7/Duskblade 13 with Master Spellthief, interleaving the Spellthief levels so you take one whenever your Steal Spells goes up is a thing too I guess.

[KingBearKing]

Trickster Spellthief 4/Fighter 1/Spellsinger 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurabt Champion 5/Spellsinger +4

Would working in swordsage1/JPM1 be worth it? Even if I can't use it with stolen spells Arcane Wrath is fun, plus a handful of maneuvers

[KingBearKing]

Maybe even substitute channeling for battlecasting. Something like trickster spellthief 4/warblade 1/havoc mage5/JPM10

This leaves him able to steal 7th level spells, full JPM maneuvers, and the ability to battlecast. Not quite the same as the original concept but potentially more useful if he's scoring double damage rolls alongside his maneuvers. The low sneak damage is an issue for this build and really only useful for stealing spells however.

[Silvercrys]

Battlecast doesn't work with most maneuvers, sadly. I think Spellsword has the only channeling ability that actually works with them because it's a move action.

Think the best you can do with Swordsage is Trickster Spellthief 4/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Spellsword 4/Spellsinger 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage +4, but you need Aasimar to give you medium armor proficiency, and you have to take feats like so:

1: Apprentice Entertainer

3: Heavy Armor Proficiency

6: Improved Counterspell

9: Skill Focus (Perform)

So you need a flaw to get Master Spellthief at level 6. If you can get 2 flaws Able Learner is very good for your skill points because you have to keep Perform and Listen maxed to get into Sublime Chord.

If you can take two flaws you can use any outsider for martial weapons prof. and take medium armor prof. with your extra flaw, though, and you still get 9th level spells (albeit at level 20), so that's a plus. And at level 12 you can take Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance straight up instead of needing Martial Study for a shadow hand maneuver first.

[KingBearKing]

Wouldn't the level adjust from playing an outsider hamstring me just a little?

That's a shame about battlecast not working with maneuvers. On paper it seems a tad more useful than channeling, plus I was thinking of all the fun ways I could use JPM's built in metamagic to synergizes with my battlecast spells, but alas.

So with the build you just listed, what would be my generally most effective play style? I assume he's more caster/bard with a smattering of combatant skill as opposed to a rogue with spells.

[Falontani]

Not actually looking too closely but some ideas:
1) Racial Emulation feat (requires Changeling) allows access to all the different racial acfs. This could help you meet prerequisites or get access to interesting abilities. (For example, 1 level of paladin is quite weak, and smite evil is fairly garbage, however half orc paladin grants a powerful buff for a decent length instead of smite evil)
2) Changeling Rogue and Changeling wizard both have more skill points available than usual. Starting off with 10+int mod x4 lets you get most important skills maxed out right off. Add in Able Learner and your skill point game will hardly ever have problems.
3) Human Paragon, Elf Paragon, Gnome Paragon, Half Elf Paragon, and Drow Paragon all can increase wizard cl. Meaning they all count as arcane casters for the purposes of Master Spellthief.
4) Rage Mage while usually worthless, increases your caster level to equal your character level with certain schools while in a spell rage. This could be useful to certain builds.
5) Spellwarp Sniper 1 allows any spell to be converted to a ranged touch. Which can then allow a duskblade to channel it.
6) Spellthief is a spontaneous spellcaster, and thus all the usual adding spells to spells known work for it. Like the bloodlines from Dragon Compendium or Sand Shaper. (This does add some interesting and powerful touch spells!)
7) Warlock into Nosomatic Chirugen grants unlimited inflict touch spells that work against undead. Master of Night and Day maximizes all inflict and cure spells.
8) Cheesy cheese: UA Bloodline *can* increase your cl as if you'd taken a level... In all the classes you possess... Up to three times. Meaning if you had 5 classes that grant increase casting every level and 1 class that granted it, you'd get 6 cls... Three times... For a total of 18 cls... Beware of flying books, different interpretations, and incoherent dms

[Silvercrys]

Wouldn't the level adjust from playing an outsider hamstring me just a little?

Yeah, if you can't use LA buyoff you'd have to find an LA+0 one like Neraph.

That's a shame about battlecast not working with maneuvers. On paper it seems a tad more useful than channeling, plus I was thinking of all the fun ways I could use JPM's built in metamagic to synergizes with my battlecast spells, but alas.

Yeah, you can do Arcane Wrath and Battlecast but you can't do a strike at the same time because strikes need a standard action and Battlecast is a special full-round, sadly.

So with the build you just listed, what would be my generally most effective play style? I assume he's more caster/bard with a smattering of combatant skill as opposed to a rogue with spells.

You're more of a back up frontliner/melee striker running on daily resources (spells per day) than anything else. Basically a rogue that needs to rest to recover spell slots but doesn't have the usual sneak attack caveats since your main source of damage is Arcane Wrath. You'll need to use spells to replace your skill checks and stuff, too, since you don't have many skill points later on. Invisibility for sneaking, stuff like that.

So, yeah, like a Bard with paladin smites instead of party buffs. Spellsword just helps you spend your spell slots faster/nova since you can do Arcane Wrath + channel damage spell + strike for damage on one attack.

[KingBearKing]

You're more of a back up frontliner/melee striker running on daily resources (spells per day) than anything else. Basically a rogue that needs to rest to recover spell slots but doesn't have the usual sneak attack caveats since your main source of damage is Arcane Wrath. You'll need to use spells to replace your skill checks and stuff, too, since you don't have many skill points later on. Invisibility for sneaking, stuff like that.

So, yeah, like a Bard with paladin smites instead of party buffs. Spellsword just helps you spend your spell slots faster/nova since you can do Arcane Wrath + channel damage spell + strike for damage on one attack.

Cool. That's more or less what I was going for thematically. Also, is a level 1dip into crusader really all that bad? If it frees up all that feat space/race requirement I think that might make up for a weird random maneuver mechanic

[Silvercrys]

Cool. That's more or less what I was going for thematically. Also, is a level 1dip into crusader really all that bad? If it frees up all that feat space/race requirement I think that might make up for a weird random maneuver mechanic

It's not -- it's quite good, probably even optimal, I just can't stand their recovery mechanic and will do literally anything to avoid it, including playing as a weird frog and spending two feats.

But yeah if you don't mind it Crusader actually gets the proficiencies you need by itself so you can play and Elf or whatever and you don't need flaws. I thought it had the same weapon proficiencies as Warblade, but apparently not.

[KingBearKing]

So now we're looking at Trickster Spellthief 4/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Spellsword 4/Spellsinger 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage +4

I have access to fewer maneuvers, but more feat space to pick up things like assassin stance.

Also I'm working on a drawing of the kenku version of this character I'll post him when it's done.

[KingBearKing]

I don't have an Imgur account so hopefully flickr works

Spoiler

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/184675277@N05/?

[Anthrowhale]

Using Heartfire Fanner instead of Spellsinger may be better? Heartfire Fanner explicitly grants bardic music while Spellsinger is more iffy. Plus, Heartfire Fanners allows you to grant feats which is fun.

[KingBearKing]

Spoiler

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/184675...posted-public/

[Silvercrys]

Using Heartfire Fanner instead of Spellsinger may be better? Heartfire Fanner explicitly grants bardic music while Spellsinger is more iffy. Plus, Heartfire Fanners allows you to grant feats which is fun.

Yeah, Heartfire Fanner works too/better if Dragon Magazine content is allowed (would have to be for Trickster Spellthief, I suppose).

Just have to make sure you keep track of the prereqs, you have to wait until level 8 to take the level of Heartfire Fanner so you need to do like Trickster Spellthief 4/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Spellsword 1/Heartfire Fanner 1/Spellsword +3/Sublime Chord 1/Abj Champ 4/JPM +4 or something?

[Elves]

Spoiler

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Very cute.

[KingBearKing]

Heartfire Fanner sounds cool. I like the feat ability that's interesting and would give him even more team utility.

So let's craft a little backstory for Kaw the Kenku Crow Man.

Abandoned as a puppy he was found by Muriel and her husband Eustace Baggs who lived in the middle of nowhere. No wait that's courage the cowardly dog...

Kaw was always a bit different. Not to say he wasn't bright, just a curious bird unlike others of his clan. Shunned for his perceived dimness he was abandoned by the other Kenku, left to fend for himself in the wild.
It was fortunate that after only a few days of squawking around the forrest a traveling bard on his way to the city found the young crow plucking worms from a rotting log for his breakfast. The man took Kaw under his wing so to speak, and the two traveled together for several years with Kaw initially collecting coin whenever the bard played to eventually singing along his natural talent to mimic the sounds he heard making him a natural performer.
Now traveling from city to city can be dangerous work, and the Bard had a moderate understanding of the arcane arts to aid in the safety of their journeys. Kaw watched with starry eyed awe as one day his master lobbed a burning orb of fire at a group of bandits that beset them on the road. But not before being gravely wounded. As His master called for his assistance, Kaw could feel energy pouring from his master's wound, the same energy he felt pulse through the air anytime he was near a spell. He reached out, placing a taloned hand on his master's wound. He felt a sudden rush of energy and arcane understanding flood his mind. He had taken one of his master's spells, and on pure instinct cast the healing spell closing his master's wounds. His master stood, and not wanting to face a pair of mages the bandits fled.

Kaw would then decide it time to journey on on his own, saying Farewell to his master to set out and learn more about magic. This is where he begins as a level 1 trickster spellthief, and meets the party to set out on whatever quest they embark on. Through their travels he must encounter the jade Phoenix mages as well as members of the brotherhood of the burning heart, and strive to be a Crusader for their ideals. His natural Mimicry is the perfect instrument, and so his Bardic spells will echo across the battlefield in the form of birdsong, e emboldening his team as he plucks magic from his foes weaving the arcane energies into magical buffs and devastating attacks.

Performer.
Thief.
Warrior.
Mage.
Dumb ****ing bird.
Kaw.