OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

[Spanish_Paladin]

You rang?

Yeah, and now i have lost all my paladin levels 😂

[Aetius]

Lawful tends to be way wider in scale than Chaotic.

The scope of evil deeds is a matter of organization - not alignment.

Sure, Authoritarian Followers are Lawful to a fault, but the manipulators who tend to lead the Followers are usually pretty Chaotic, being generally very bereft of any principles whatsoever beyond serving their own selfish desires.

My thoughts exactly. Shojo doesn't need to be lawful to lead a highly organized order of paladins and Xykon doesn't need to be lawful to lead loyal legions of goblinoids.

And even if the followers aren't lawful either they can organize some pretty big and pretty bad deeds as a horde.

[Riftwolf]

Theoretical argument between Hilgya and Teen Kudzu:
TK: I'm not following you into the Church of Loki mom! I'm gonna rebuild the Creed of the Stone!
Hilgya: OK cool. Saves me having to teach you everything.
TK: Y-you're not stopping me?
Hilgya: You still here?
TK: So... You're not going to kill me now you can't control me and I'm defying your beliefs?
Hilgya: Why would you think that? I still love you even if we don't agree on every detail. And besides, Lokis prime teaching is 'If it suits me, fine'.
TK: So you're not a control freak nightmare mum?
Hilgya: I'm only two out of four of those. And where would you get the idea that I'd kill you for disagreeing with me? Have you been talking to your dad again?

[Brutalitops]

I'm surprised she would even deem to give him false hope of seeing his kid when this is all set and done. I don't think she is at all willing to share custody, but maybe that's just me. Or maybe its because she murdered him not a single day ago. That could be it.

In all fairness she did raise him from the dead so its more of a divine slap to the face.

[Fyraltari]

You're right that I don't speak French. But I know a thing or two, of course.

Spoiler: Disenchantment

Show

The original line was: "Aren't you the crazy lizard queen of Dreamland?" to which a character replies: "I am the crazy lizard queen of NO land!". In the French version, it goes (pardon my spelling) "N'etre vous pas la bizarre reigne lézard que partis?" to which she replies: "Je suis la bizarre reigne lézard sans patrie!"

Don’t take this personally but although I can get the meaning of the dialogue, I have a hard time parsing what tense is used and how formal the language is supposed to be which, with the fact that I don’t have any context makes it hard for me to say that it is better than the original. Especially since one could use ‘nulle part’ (nowhere) to stay closer to the original and keep the repetition with ‘partie’.

For every The Master, there are countless Darth Vaders, M. Bisons, Geese Howards, Kefkas, etc.

Caligula (as a play character, not a historical figure), Joffrey Baratheon, Emperor Joker ...

The idea of a tyrant acting randomly is one of the oldest tropes in the book.

[The MunchKING]

Okay, in general, Chaotics do not make good authoritarians.

For every The Master, there are countless Darth Vaders, M. Bisons, Geese Howards, Kefkas, etc.

Kefka? Unless you're thinking of a completely different Kefka than I am, he wasn't a authoritarian. He was some kind of cosmic Nihilist or something. He didn't want to rule he just wanted to blow everything up until there was nothing left, and then leave that as a monument to nonexistence.

[Riftwolf]

Kefka? Unless you're thinking of a completely different Kefka than I am, he wasn't a authoritarian. He was some kind of cosmic Nihilist or something. He didn't want to rule he just wanted to blow everything up until there was nothing left, and then leave that as a monument to nonexistence.

If this is FF6, then from my recollection he fiddled with the world's balance of magic power in the clumsiest 'hold my beer' way, crippled the planet in doing so, and put himself on top of the new world order. I also seem to remember him being a unique villain as he did what he set out to do; the protagonists don't foil his scheme for Ultimate Power, they have to fight back *after* Kefka wins. So pretty chaotic, but only authoritarian in the 'cross me and I'll cut you with infinite magic power' kind of way. And, unlike Sephiroth, Ultimecia and Kuja after him, a successful villain.

[The MunchKING]

If this is FF6, then from my recollection he fiddled with the world's balance of magic power in the clumsiest 'hold my beer' way,

To be fair to him, he DID seem to have some kind of plan for a more controlled draining of the statues, only those darn protags messed everything up for him. It was Shadow that messed everything up, IIRC, not Kefka.

OK, it was Emperor Ghestal that had the plan for properly draining them, Kefka did start shoving them around all willy-nilly even before Shadow showed up. I was wrong about that...

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah I think a big part of the problem with Hilgya is a tonal mismatch. This comic strip has evolved a great deal from the days when the team did obviously Evil stuff as one-off gags and we were meant to laugh and move on without thinking about it. The Giant has, in fact, singled out a couple of those thoughtlessly Evil moments as the strip has evolved, and used them to echo back on the players and examine (and implicitly condemn) the carelessness of the strip's early morality. But Hilgya seems to still exist in that original dynamic, to a certain degree, which becomes a real issue when her "flame strike to resolve domestic dispute" overreaction humor hits up against a narrative environment that no longer treats such things so trivially, and an audience conditioned to view things from within that new more serious narrative framework.

Yeah, it's like she was in suspended animation for about 15 years and then came out of the lab ...

I'd like to note that Malack's religion wasn't vampirism, it was Nergal worship, which wasn't a secret, and Durkon was perfectly cool with it.

Yes, and they discussed it amicablly.

The idea here seems to be that Hilgya and Durkon have moved past their mutual dislike and emotional pain and will do what's best for their son moving forward. That's a start.

Yeah. And the rest will happen off screen, I think, since the Order needs to head north.

I'm not sure I've ever seen Hilgya look more like a PERSON, and less like a caricature.

I like the way you put that; it captured a thought I had but could not put into words.

I propose that Kudzu should be raised by a resurrected Miko. She'd keep him on the straight and narrow and make sure he doesn't turn out chaotic or evil. She wouldn't let him watch TV one second more than experts recommend, and perfectly stick to all the rules of parenting.

Hmm, I am thinking that needed blue text, but that got a grin out of me.

O-Chul doesn't get dead. Death get o-chuled.

And even Chuck Norris would be wary of messing with O-Chul.

Make some for me.

*hands some popcorn to TW*
I added extra butter and a little salt.

Have you read The Authoritarians(warning: direct PDF link) by Bob Altemeyer?

Thanks for the link! Looks like a worthy read.

Theoretical argument between Hilgya and Teen Kudzu:
TK: I'm not following you into the Church of Loki mom! I'm gonna rebuild the Creed of the Stone!
Hilgya: OK cool. Saves me having to teach you everything.
TK: Y-you're not stopping me?
Hilgya: You still here?
TK: So... You're not going to kill me now you can't control me and I'm defying your beliefs?
Hilgya: Why would you think that? I still love you even if we don't agree on every detail. And besides, Lokis prime teaching is 'If it suits me, fine'.
TK: So you're not a control freak nightmare mum?
Hilgya: I'm only two out of four of those. And where would you get the idea that I'd kill you for disagreeing with me? Have you been talking to your dad again?

*JChortles*

[Petrocorus]

You're right that I don't speak French. But I know a thing or two, of course.

Spoiler: Disenchantment

Show

The original line was: "Aren't you the crazy lizard queen of Dreamland?" to which a character replies: "I am the crazy lizard queen of NO land!". In the French version, it goes (pardon my spelling) "N'etre vous pas la bizarre reigne lézard que partis?" to which she replies: "Je suis la bizarre reigne lézard sans patrie!"

Would you know in what episode that was?

I tend to watch TV and movies in original version when i can. The French translation are usually average, at best.
It's not easy to translate English into French while keeping the pacing.

And even Chuck Norris would be wary of messing with O-Chul.

Chuck Norris is O-Chul's character in Real Life.

Oh my... i really liked that O-Chul Facts thread we had going years ago.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Hilgya murdering Durkon is a lot more excusable to me because she did immediately resurrect him afterwards. The primary consequence of her action is that Durkon lost a level. She killed him when she knew full well that he would not stay dead, and I do not think she would have killed him if she thought it would stick.

Like, it wasn't a good act, but it's not monstrously evil. I think it's basically equivalent to her punching him in the face.

---

As far as Hilgya's parenting goes, it's not ideal, but it's not so awful that the kid needs to be taken from her. Like, Hilgya needs to establish some sort of babysitter so she doesn't end up bringing her kid to her workplace and potential danger, but really that's my biggest issue with her.

She isn't a good person, but she's not negligent and she clearly cares about the kid.

---

O-Chul deserves better than to be compared to Chuck Norris

Chuck Norris (the real person) kind of sucks, and did not deserve to be the basis for Chuck Norris (the ultimate badass)

[HorizonWalker]

Chuck Norris (the real person) kind of sucks, and did not deserve to be the basis for Chuck Norris (the ultimate badass)

Personally, I think we should go back to making the exact same jokes, but about Mr. T instead. He seems like a real hoopy frood.

[Peelee]

Would you know in what episode that was?

Season 1, Part 2, Episode 3.

Personally, I think we should go back to making the exact same jokes, but about Mr. T instead. He seems like a real hoopy frood.

I'm all on board with this plan. Mr. T is awesome.

[Petrocorus]

Chuck Norris (the real person) kind of sucks, and did not deserve to be the basis for Chuck Norris (the ultimate badass)

Wait .... what??

Well, the Chuck Norris Facts are jokes and at this point don't have that much to do with the real person, unless you consider the real Chuck Norris' blood is poisonous to the snake that would bite him or he's able to single-handedly defeat the nazis at five years old.

And i'm quite curious to know what's your contention about the real Chuck Norris, how is he a bad person?

Season 1, Part 2, Episode 3.

Thank you.

[Riftwolf]

*JChortles*

Thanks! Nice to get recognition.

[HorizonWalker]

Wait .... what??

Well, the Chuck Norris Facts are jokes and at this point don't have not that much to do with the real person, unless you consider the real Chuck Norris' blood is poisonous to the snake that would bite him or he's able to single-handedly defeat the nazis at five years old.

And i'm quite curious to know what's your contention about the real Chuck Norris, how is he a bad person?

That's a difficult question to answer without breaking forum rules, given that Chuck Norris is a real person who's still alive.

[AstralFire]

Apparently, for some people, it isn't.

I do agree, though.

The Watsonian take is the only way to enjoy the comic in general.

Hilgya is a victim of some people suddenly deciding to consider throwaway jokes to be a part of characterisation, when they are not considered thus inside the comic.

If we take it seriously that V uses a "tentacles of forced intrusion" then V is a rapist, which by rights should make V evil. Yet V is clearly not evil when they meet Miko. As I recall she did a detect evil on everyone but Belkar with his lead sheet.

Elan's decision to show no empathy when Roy is hit by a poisonous trap with spikes that would have killed anyone in real life, but instead use the situation to get back at Roy, is not referenced ever again after the panel.

The whole party condemns a Hydra to eternal suffering, because it's funny. Are we to take that as indicator of their morality? Apparently not.


But with Hilgya, not only things that are meant to indicate that she has a tendency towards violence (let's not forget V isn't evil in-comic despite frequently using explosive runes on people who are being annoying) are taken as proof of extreme evilness, but even the fact that she brings a baby into battle (which is clearly NOT meant to indicate bad parenting) is taken at face value.



Edit: And claiming that Hilgya wouldn't let Kudzu worship Thor or even become a cleric is EXTREMELY ridiculous. Really, please do THINK for a moment. Hilgya had sex with a cleric of Thor, and unlike Durkon had every intention of making that a long-term relationship. She probably wouldn't be happy if Kudzu risked his afterlife by not using her way of cheating the system, but she certainly wouldn't disinherit him or anything.

I think this is accurate, but the timing was really, really painful. I think the purpose was to be a mood-lightener, but coming when it did, it sort of completely ruined the joy I got in seeing Durkon come back to life with a series of actions on both Durkon and Hilgya's parts that were painful and unfunny for me to watch. It'd be a lot harder to get a good moment in the comic these days where V's Tentacles spells wouldn't send an extremely sour note;humor has marched on and the comic is a lot more serious than it used to be. I recall a similar minor issue that occurred fairly recently: the mind-controlled Kobold at Girard's Gate was meant to be a humor thing, but I remember at the time the joke went on so long that it switched from feeling funny to feeling unnecessary cruel in several people's eyes, self included.

It's okay; not every joke works for every person every time. But I think that's where a lot of this comes from and it's worth remembering that there have been other times jokes have landed flat for characters we like, too.

I think for me Kudzu lands triply hard because like:
- I'm very acquainted with children survivors of abusive parents and Hilgya sets off many of my personal triggers.
- Mr. Burlew is otherwise very fastidious about protecting children.

I think it's very clear that the intent in writing these scenes is that if nothing else, Hilgya is a Good Mom and Durkon is a Good Dad and things will never work between them but they will work well for Kudzu. But the story doesn't add up that way in my head and I basically have to quietly ignore prior scenes for it to work. And I think it's OK for me to walk away with a different feeling about these scenes and say they don't work for me even when I can acknowledge author intent.

[BasiliskSoldier]

And i'm quite curious to know what's your contention about the real Chuck Norris, how is he a bad person?

I have strong issues with certain political stances he's taken in regards to issues that are important to me, and I think his stance on those issues reflects poorly on his character and I don't think he deserved his memetic reputation as the ultimate badass because of those political stances.

That's all I'm gonna say about it.

[Schroeswald]

.
- Mr. Burlew is otherwise very fastidious about protecting children.

If you mean he thinks children should be protected, yeah, but just about every child character has been killed. The TBD was killed by V, Eric was killed by an accident,

Spoiler

Show

Redcloak’s sister and nephews were killed

He hasn’t included many but they haven’t fared well in the whole survival department.

[Dion]

I don't think he deserved his memetic reputation as the ultimate badass .

He’s a 80 year old feeble dude with fake hair who was in some absolutely terrible movies in the 70s.

He’s about as badass as Elmo, but with a lot less name recognition among people younger than 50.

[Verappo]

Like, it wasn't a good act, but it's not monstrously evil. I think it's basically equivalent to her punching him in the face.

Yeah, and this is a parallel that Sigdi herself pointed out in her defence of Hilgya's reaction to the proposal.

I'm generally ok with this outcome, it gives both characters something they want without betraying Hilgya's estabilished characterization. And it is a good starting point for Durkon to develop the skills he'll need to possibly make a compromise with Redcloak in the future.

I like that by this point most characters have something to look forward to, narrative wise, for the last book of the series.

[CriticalFailure]

I still find it baffling that people think that things between Durkon and Hilgya will end with some sort of victory over her; he chose to sleep with her without knowing whether their values aligned and without protection and he’s probably not getting out of the consequences thereof via combat. No matter how many people secretly wish they could smite their ex, it’s unlikely that they are just going to fight Hilgya and take Kudzu since doing so would be catering to a childish power fantasy and this particular story arc seems to be going for a somewhat more realistic take on co-parenting and learning to cooperate with those you dislike for the sake of family.

Also don’t understand the people insisting that Hilgya must be an abusive parent despite no evidence and evidence to the contrary.

Maybe she has two or more focuses. Foci. Focaccia.

Hmm, focaccia.

That sounds like something MitD would say.

[Ruck]

Also don’t understand the people insisting that Hilgya must be an abusive parent despite no evidence and evidence to the contrary.

I think I found the key to your not-understanding.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Hilgya killing and then resurrecting Durkon was inexcusable because it wasted diamonds.

Think of the shiny things, the loot, the treasure that was so thoughtlessly destroyed, and for what?

Think of all the good that an extra resurrection could have done at so many times, and now there's one less chance, and for what?

If Hilgya wanted to rid herself of some diamonds so badly, she could have donated them to someone in need, someone deserving. Like me.

I deserve diamonds.

[The_Weirdo]

Don’t take this personally but although I can get the meaning of the dialogue, I have a hard time parsing what tense is used and how formal the language is supposed to be which, with the fact that I don’t have any context makes it hard for me to say that it is better than the original. Especially since one could use ‘nulle part’ (nowhere) to stay closer to the original and keep the repetition with ‘partie’.



Caligula (as a play character, not a historical figure), Joffrey Baratheon, Emperor Joker ...

The idea of a tyrant acting randomly is one of the oldest tropes in the book.

I told you I don't speak French.

I liked it, though, because it rhymed and sounded like the kind of wordplay one would see in Astérix.

And, eh, fair enough.

*hands some popcorn to TW*
I added extra butter and a little salt.

How thoughtful! Thanks!

Would you know in what episode that was?

Spoiler

Show

Season 2, episode 3, after she meets the pirates.

I still find it baffling that people think that things between Durkon and Hilgya will end with some sort of victory over her; he chose to sleep with her without knowing whether their values aligned and without protection and he’s probably not getting out of the consequences thereof via combat. No matter how many people secretly wish they could smite their ex, it’s unlikely that they are just going to fight Hilgya and take Kudzu since doing so would be catering to a childish power fantasy and this particular story arc seems to be going for a somewhat more realistic take on co-parenting and learning to cooperate with those you dislike for the sake of family.

Hear hear!

the mind-controlled Kobold at Girard's Gate was meant to be a humor thing, but I remember at the time the joke went on so long that it switched from feeling funny to feeling unnecessary cruel in several people's eyes, self included.

Well, he wanted the outcome. If he did not, he wouldn't have shot the cat.

I deserve diamonds.

>_>

<_<

*Tug, tug, tug*

Yeah, and now i have lost all my paladin levels 😂

Eh, don't worry. I'm sure you'll find them. Or someone will, at least.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hilgya killing and then resurrecting Durkon was inexcusable because it wasted diamonds.

Think of the shiny things, the loot, the treasure that was so thoughtlessly destroyed, and for what?

Think of all the good that an extra resurrection could have done at so many times, and now there's one less chance, and for what?

If Hilgya wanted to rid herself of some diamonds so badly, she could have donated them to someone in need, someone deserving. Like me.

I deserve diamonds.

A nearly perfect post.

[Dr.Zero]

He’s a 80 year old feeble dude with fake hair who was in some absolutely terrible movies in the 70s.

He’s about as badass as Elmo, but with a lot less name recognition among people younger than 50.

Directly from wikipedia.

Spoiler: I'd say these are the reason he has a deserved reputation of being a badass

Show

Norris suffered the tenth and last loss of his career, losing an upset decision to Louis Delgado. On November 24, 1968, he avenged his defeat to Delgado and by doing so won the Professional Middleweight Karate champion title, which he held for six consecutive years.[10] In 1969, he won Karate's triple crown for the most tournament wins of the year, and the Fighter of the Year award by Black Belt magazine.


And

Rank E3 USAF AM1.svg Airman First Class
Unit

Patch 15th USAAF.png 15th Air Force
22d Air Refueling Wing.png 22d Bombardment Group
452d Air Mobility Wing.png 452d Troop Carrier Wing

Awards

National Defense Service Medal ribbon.svg National Defense Service Medal
Korea Defense Service Medal ribbon.svg Korea Defense Service Medal
Air Force Outstanding Unit Award ribbon.png Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
Air Force Longevity Service ribbon.svg Air Force Longevity Service Award
Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.png Small Arms Expert Marksmanship

Returning to the comic, I'm glad, nay, I'm overjoyed to see H's reputation cleared, eventually.

I'm still laughing a bit about the idea that people really would have thought that the heroes, of all the people, could take away a child from her mom, probably killing -for good, not in the "resurrect, kill, resurrect" way- her in the process. This to thank her of the fact that she has healed them after the battle and -eventually- resurrected Durkon, instead of leaving them unconscious and Durkon dead and planeshifting away. It would have been a good enough reason to root for Xykon.

@AstralFire: I don't think that the kobold's enslavement was ever meant to be humorous. Maybe (better: probably, at least in the author's intentions) Durkon and Elan knowing about the bad stuff V and B did to him was meant to be for the sake of two throwaway jokes (the vomiting and the bad application of karma). (Even if for me even those put a shadow on them, but this too was discussed for ages).

[Petrocorus]

I have strong issues with certain political stances he's taken in regards to issues that are important to me, and I think his stance on those issues reflects poorly on his character and I don't think he deserved his memetic reputation as the ultimate badass because of those political stances.

That's all I'm gonna say about it.

You're right, we are pushing the rules.

So i won't go any further either, despite the fact there would be a lot to say about what you just said.

[The_Weirdo]

I'm still laughing a bit about the idea that people really would have thought that the heroes, of all the people, could take away a child from her mom, probably killing -for good, not in the "resurrect, kill, resurrect" way- her in the process. This to thank her of the fact that she has healed them after the battle and -eventually- resurrected Durkon, instead of leaving them unconscious and Durkon dead and planeshifting away. It would have been a good enough reason to root for Xykon.

Hear hear!

And that, of course, assuming Hilgya, with a lot of bonuses for being a mother trying to prevent a kidnapping, wouldn't get at least one kill in firs, possibly Durkon himself.

[Themrys]

@AstralFire: I don't think that the kobold's enslavement was ever meant to be humorous. Maybe (better: probably, at least in the author's intentions) Durkon and Elan knowing about the bad stuff V and B did to him was meant to be for the sake of two throwaway jokes (the vomiting and the bad application of karma). (Even if for me even those put a shadow on them, but this too was discussed for ages).

If I took that bit as indication of the morality of the whole group, I would have to consider not only V and Belkar but also Durkon and Elan, who did not enact any punishment, evil. Now, V is arguably evil, and Belkar certainly is, but Durkon and Elan are allegedly beings of incorruptible pure pureness (at least for Elan, Haley explicitly says something along those lines), but didn't seem to feel a need to do anything but vomit.

Hilgya killing Durkon with fire instead of slapping him in the face is a lot funnier. I could see that happen in a game of D&D without causing the group to break apart, whereas if anyone treated another player character the way they treated that kobold, that would be the end of it. Death is reversible in D&D, torture is not.