OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

[Schroeswald]

So, Summon Weirdo X?

No, that was Summon Weirdo III, Spanish Paladin doesn’t have enough Cleric levels for Summon Weirdo X

[HalfTangible]

Durkon's MOM didn't think it was that big a deal.

She threatened to end Hilgya if she put so much as put a scratch on Durkon ever again.

Just because she didn't bring up the issue immediately upon learning of it doesn't mean she didn't care. And like she said, Hilgya did fix the problem immediately after.

[Peelee]

That is also true, but in her defense, Durkon wasn't really thinking about her either when he proposed to her. I mean even a modicum of empathy would tell you that someone that you really, really hurt and then didn't talk to for a year wouldn't want anything to do with you, much less marry you. So they were both being pretty selfish in this situation, but I do think her response was the best way to get Durkon to understand how much he hurt her.

A feat that could also be accomplished by talking to him.

[Schroeswald]

A feat that could also be accomplished by talking to him.

The best way to communicate displeasure with someone is to kill them and revive them.

[Rrmcklin]

Thats a good point. Who knows how kudzu behaves in the stickverse? It could be an invasive vine, or it could be a flowering tree for all we know. That kinda reminds me of this:

Spoiler: Oversized image

Show

That is also true, but in her defense, Durkon wasn't really thinking about her either when he proposed to her. I mean even a modicum of empathy would tell you that someone that you really, really hurt and then didn't talk to for a year wouldn't want anything to do with you, much less marry you. So they were both being pretty selfish in this situation, but I do think her response was the best way to get Durkon to understand how much he hurt her.

I'll give you a compromise: It was 10% Durkon's fault, and 90% Hilgya's. There, that doesn't put all the blame on her, but acknowledge she was by far and inargualbly the worst participant of that little exchange, and no amount of going "he was insensitive" changes that.

[Dion]

So they were both being pretty selfish in this situation, but I do think her response was the best way to get Durkon to understand how much he hurt her.

Sure, if you ask any therapist, they’ll tell you that inflicting major physical harm on someone is the best way to improve their empathy for you.

This is a standard staple of new parenting classes.

[Riftwolf]

Good to see Durkon being a good dad and trying to do right with the imperfect situation he's in (and not making grand sweeping gestures to wallpaper over the cracks). Hopefully now they've both got their LG/CE thickheadedness out of their systems and can work on the compromise.

[littlebum2002]

Sure, if you ask any therapist, they’ll tell you that inflicting major physical harm on someone is the best way to improve their empathy for you.

This is a standard staple of new parenting classes.

I mean i wouldn't say it was the best way, but it would be pretty hard to argue that it didn't send the message of "I want nothing to do with you" loud and clear.

[bravelove]

I see everyone’s being on about Hilgya not losing custody? May I remind you all what she did to the last clan of dwarves that crossed her? Hilgya would 100% murder anyone who tries to take her child, it’s plain dangerous for everyone to even try ESPECIALLY because Hilgya has actually been a pretty decent mom so it’s not like Kudzu’s in danger to create a moral dilemma, she’s been prioritizing Kudzu a lot, trying to keep Kudzu safe to the point of plane shift, even giving Durkon the right to see him, we’ve never seen her act as a bad parent, bad person yes, but not a bad parent, and being a bad person ain’t enough to lose custody, also about then name if anything a plant that kills trees sounds like a very dwarven name, they don’t hate plants in general they hate trees specifically, so a plant that kills trees would likely be seen as a good thing

TLDR; Kudzu is a very good dwarf name because it’s about a thing that murders trees, would you risk Hilgya’s motherly rage to try and take him because I wouldn’t I like me and my family living, and bad person does not always mean bad parent

[Dion]

I mean i wouldn't say it was the best way, but it would be pretty hard to argue that it didn't send the message of "I want nothing to do with you" loud and clear.

Sure. And a drive by shooting is an effective way to tell someone to stop inviting you to dinner.

Or is it?

Durkon is the only character in the strip that thinks, “wow, this person killed me. I wonder what it was about my behavior that contributed to that.”

For everyone else, when someone gets hurt they either stay dead or they come back for revenge. They don’t sit around and consider the life choices that led to them getting killed. They kill back. When you take someone out in OotS-verse, you best not miss.

[KorvinStarmast]

The best way to communicate displeasure with someone is to kill them and revive them.

I don't know why this post struck me this way, but I was sipping coffee as I read that and some came out through my nose.

Well done.

(I keep a roll of paper towels by my desk to prepare for such calamities as this)

[Bobb]

Holy expletive.

"Don't try to separate Durkon's kid from his mother because she will probably murder a bunch of people when she hears about.

Besides, everything will probably be fine."

[Bobb]

ESPECIALLY because Hilgya has actually been a pretty decent mom so it’s not like Kudzu’s in danger to create a moral dilemma, she’s been prioritizing Kudzu a lot, trying to keep Kudzu safe to the point of plane shift, even giving Durkon the right to see him, we’ve never seen her act as a bad parent, bad person yes, but not a bad parent, and being a bad person ain’t enough to lose custody, also about then name if anything a plant that kills trees sounds like a very dwarven name, they don’t hate plants in general they hate trees specifically, so a plant that kills trees would likely be seen as a good thing

TLDR; Kudzu is a very good dwarf name because it’s about a thing that murders trees, would you risk Hilgya’s motherly rage to try and take him because I wouldn’t I like me and my family living, and bad person does not always mean bad parent

She needlessly exposed her kid to battle.

She handed her son to a vampire to be used as a meat shield.

If she doesn't turn on kudzu when he crosses her she will mould him into herself.

[Themrys]

ESPECIALLY because Hilgya has actually been a pretty decent mom so it’s not like Kudzu’s in danger to create a moral dilemma, she’s been prioritizing Kudzu a lot, trying to keep Kudzu safe to the point of plane shift, even giving Durkon the right to see him, we’ve never seen her act as a bad parent, bad person yes, but not a bad parent, and being a bad person ain’t enough to lose custody,

This.

Taking away a woman's baby because you deem her immoral ... hmmmm ... where have we seen this before? Do people here really, really think that is a morally justifiable thing to do?

Anyone who would even consider taking Kudzu away from Hilgya is at least as bad a person as she is.

She's a good mother to Kudzu, so there's no justification for taking him away from her. End of story.


Also, it is kind of hilarious that people who complain about Hilgya temporarily killing Durkon agree with Sigdi threatening to murder Hilgya. Either we are civilized people who disapprove of individuals using violence against each other to resolve conflicts, or we aren't.
Just because you don't like Hilgya but like Sigdi doesn't change one bit about the rightness or wrongness of their (planned) actions. If you expect Hilgya to rely on the law to avenge herself, you have to expect the same of Sigdi.

Sure, Hilgya overreacted massively, but she would have been very much well within her rights to tell Durkon that Kudzu was fathered by her husband and continue on her merry way without helping the OotS in their quest.
That's what would have been her right to do. And I bet, had she done it, some people would still complain about her.

[hroþila]

She handed her son to a vampire to be used as a meat shield.

While dominated.

[Sindeloke]

Holy expletive.

"Don't try to separate Durkon's kid from his mother because she will probably murder a bunch of people when she hears about.

Besides, everything will probably be fine."

Lol, right?

Question to anyone who thinks Hilgya should be within 10,000 leagues of Kudzu at any time: how do you reconcile "Hilgya would never hurt Kudzu because she loves him fiercely, even if he defies her or makes her feel rejected (as children often do to their parents, especially as they grow older)" with "Hilgya literally murdered Durkon because she loved him and then he rejected her"?

Like, sincerely. This woman was so fixated on hurting someone else that she brought her child into a position where he, 100% predictably, was used as a living shield by a horrific evil. It wasn't even about him, his safety was just a lower priority to her than her need to commit violence/completely control Kudzu's life, influences and environment. That's how she treats him when he's not causing conflict. When he himself is the one causing her emotional distress, what then?

I mean "okay Durkon, we can share custody" may seem tolerable to her now in theory, now that this particular current fit of rage is over, but what happens when Kudzu comes home from daddy's house with a little stuffed hammer going "for! for! pwaise for!" and the reality of it actually hits her?

Taking away a woman's baby because you deem her immoral ... hmmmm ... where have we seen this before?

Uh... every civilized divorce court system in the world? Though "immoral" is definitely a buzzword here, "unfit" or "dangerous to her child" are much more accurate and honest to the argument.

[Dion]

Anyone who would even consider taking Kudzu away from Hilgya is at least as bad a person as she is.

I don’t understand this statement. First, Hilgya is a fictional character in a story. Nobody is a bad person because they want a conflict in the story to be resolved in a way differently than you do.

Second, even outside of stories, disagreements about the best moral choices don’t make either side into bad people or good people. We disagree about what is best. That doesn’t make me a bad person, and it doesn’t make you a bad person. That kind of black and white absolutism is both silly and a useless way to resolve real disagreements.

[Anansiil]

Biological Clock starts ticking louder...
:P

[HalfTangible]

Lol, right?

Question to anyone who thinks Hilgya should be within 10,000 leagues of Kudzu at any time: how do you reconcile "Hilgya would never hurt Kudzu because she loves him fiercely, even if he defies her or makes her feel rejected (as children often do to their parents, especially as they grow older)" with "Hilgya literally murdered Durkon because she loved him and then he rejected her"?

1) Murdered and immediately revived.
2) Simple. Durkon stomped all over her heart like rabid dire bear right after they had sex and tried to marry her immediately after they met up again for the first time in... a yearish? That's a different beast than a teen emo phase.
3) Love for your child is a very different thing than love for someone you ****ed once.

The two statements you gave are not contradictory at all.

Like, sincerely. This woman was so fixated on hurting someone else that she brought her child into a position where he, 100% predictably, was used as a living shield by a horrific evil. It wasn't even about him, his safety was just a lower priority to her than her need to commit violence/completely control Kudzu's life, influences and environment. That's how she treats him when he's not causing conflict. When he himself is the one causing her emotional distress, what then?

Like Hilgya said, the safest place for that child to be was right next to the high-level cleric and the Order absolutely needed her firepower (no pun intended). The fact that it didn't work out that way does not change the logic of her argument.

Also, she sought retribution against Durkon for breaking her heart. This is NOT the same thing as trying to control her child's entire life, influences and environment. Hilgya is not a good person and you don't need to twist her motives into something they're not in order to show it.

[Themrys]

Uh... every civilized divorce court system in the world? Though "immoral" is definitely a buzzword here, "unfit" or "dangerous to her child" are much more accurate and honest to the argument.

She is not dangerous to her child. "Handed him to a vampire while dominated by said vampire" doesn't count. Nor does "kept him with her while going into a situation she considered reasonably safe for herself" count. Do you also want to take away the babies of women who put them in cars? Car accidents kill lots of people, you know?

Also, you have apparently forgotten that Durkon isn't married to Hilgya. The only person other than her who has legal rights to her child under the law I know is her ex-husband.

(Besides, have you considered that Tarquin got custody of Nale? Tarquin, that guy who, you know, murders people for entertainment, forces woman to marry him and then presumably rapes them until they die? That Tarquin? The one who also took Nale into battle, by the way? And ultimately murdered him? Or is that different because he is male?)


Let's not forget that Durkon just got Hilgya pregnant and then sent her back to a husband he had just been told was abusive. He's not exactly the father of the year, and certainly hasn't done anything to deserve custody.

[Bobb]

While dominated.

hyyuup. She was dominated. By the vampires she was looking for.

So she could do some cathartic violence to her ex.

[Peelee]

Like Hilgya said, the safest place for that child to be was right next to the high-level cleric

That was true until the second she decided to take him into battle.

[HalfTangible]

(Besides, have you considered that Tarquin got custody of Nale? Tarquin, that guy who, you know, murders people for entertainment, forces woman to marry him and then presumably rapes them until they die? That Tarquin? The one who also took Nale into battle, by the way? And ultimately murdered him?

1) Whatboutism is not an argument.

2) Presenting this question only makes sense if Sindeloke thinks Tarquin was a good father who deserved custody. I do not see any indication that she does.

Or is that different because he is male?)

The insinuation here is hardly necessary.

That was true until the second she decided to take him into battle.

Was it?

Because I do not trust a random church, entirely out of spells, run by a 100% opposing diety to take care of a child while the kingdom is being attacked by vampires, many of them high level. If you mean before that, Hilgya does not seem to have a lot of friends she could hand the baby off to.

[bravelove]

hyyuup. She was dominated. By the vampires she was looking for.

So she could do some cathartic violence to her ex.

She was looking for Durkon she didn’t know he was a vampire until she got there and at that point staying with a group of high level adventurers would be safer then trying to leave alone in an area swarming with vampires

[Peelee]

He's not exactly the father of the year, and certainly hasn't done anything to deserve custody.

Is your position that parents need to deserve custody before they can be granted it?

She was looking for Durkon she didn’t know he was a vampire until she got there and at that point staying with a group of high level adventurers would be safer then trying to leave alone in an area swarming with vampires

If only she knew spells like Plane Shift such that she could leave without risking putting the baby in danger.

[bravelove]

Is your position that parents need to deserve custody before they can be granted it?


If only she knew spells like Plane Shift such that she could leave without risking putting the baby in danger.

Interesting fact plane shift requires a very expensive rod attuned to the plane and as she clearly hasn’t decided on a plane yet, why would she have that?

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyone who would even consider taking Kudzu away from Hilgya is at least as bad a person as she is.

She's a good mother to Kudzu, so there's no justification for taking him away from her. End of story.


Also, it is kind of hilarious that people who complain about Hilgya temporarily killing Durkon agree with Sigdi threatening to murder Hilgya. Either we are civilized people who disapprove of individuals using violence against each other to resolve conflicts, or we aren't.

Just because you don't like Hilgya but like Sigdi doesn't change one bit about the rightness or wrongness of their (planned) actions. If you expect Hilgya to rely on the law to avenge herself, you have to expect the same of Sigdi.

OK, I'll get the popcorn going.
I find myself in agreement with this part:
people who complain about Hilgya temporarily killing Durkon agree with Sigdi threatening to murder Hilgya

There are a number of other points that you raise that seem to attract a particular chain of posts so I'll step aside and let others respond.

Sure, Hilgya overreacted massively, but she would have been very much well within her rights to tell Durkon that Kudzu was fathered by her husband and continue on her merry way without helping the OotS in their quest.

That's what would have been her right to do.

Yes. She had agency and chose to go along for her own reasons, and due to Loki being anti undead. It is also worth considering Hilgya's expressed preferences to be seen through the lens of Hilgya looking out through here own eyes at the world ... not to mention that being a Cleric of Loki which tends to take a "what is in it for me" view on most transactions.

[HalfTangible]

If only she knew spells like Plane Shift such that she could leave without risking putting the baby in danger.

Going to another plane is a safe option when the world is about to be blown up. That does not mean they are safe places.

[Bobb]

She was looking for Durkon she didn’t know he was a vampire until she got there and at that point staying with a group of high level adventurers would be safer then trying to leave alone in an area swarming with vampires

Yes, there were possible decisions she did not make that could have been more egregiously reckless and irresponsible.

Not pursuing her violent revenge while things are dicey didn't enter her mind.

And she doesn't ever appear to be concerned for her child or intimidated by either the vampires or the order (still mad there was zero attempt to even subdue her after her flame strike).

Hilgya is toxic. She quite literally put taking her vengeance above the life of her child. Here is three of Hilgya's objectives in the comic, ranked from highest to lowest:

1. Give Durkon what's coming to him.
2. Protect her child.
3. Save the world.

Really disappointed "Wants her baby not to die" somehow gives her good points.

[Peelee]

Interesting fact plane shift requires a very expensive rod attuned to the plane and as she clearly hasn’t decided on a plane yet, why would she have that?

3.5 may require a rod, but Stickworld doesn't.

Going to another plane is a safe option when the world is about to be blown up. That does not mean they are safe places.

That does not mean there are only unsafe places. Certainly there are plenty of planes, such as the Astral Plane, she could shift to, then shift back to the world later if it was still around, or find other places that were suitable, in lieu of facing a horde of vampires with her baby strapped to her chest.