Should they make a live action movie called Dragonlamce: Dragons of Autumn Twilight?

[Tom Kalbfus]

What do you think, would this make a great movie, the cartoon verson looked like a Saturday morning cartoon from the 1980s.

[Bartmanhomer]

What do you think, would this make a great movie, the cartoon verson looked like a Saturday morning cartoon from the 1980s.

Sure why not.

[Mechalich]

Fantasy adaptations are tricky. For every Game of Thrones style success (and regardless of opinions regarding quality, GoT represented a massive financial success) there's a Shannara Chronicles style failure. Numerous major IPs in fantasy have struggled to make it into film or TV in recent years, despite significant audience interest and strong producer appetites for content, as they are expensive to produce and represent significant risks.

Dragonlance Chronicles would be expensive to produce. You've got dragons, draconians, bizarre visual effects like Raistlin's eyes, and more, with later books involving some fairly massive set pieces that would demand a huge VFX budget. So it would be a pretty big task.

At the same time, the Chronicles also have a bunch of shall we say, difficult, elements as holdovers from their 1980s production. Riverwind and Goldmoon are perhaps the most obvious, but you're also stuck with the challenge of trying to bring Tasselhoff to screen in a way that is both not horrifying in its own right and doesn't launch a thousand think pieces. Forum rules prevent any sort of detailed discussion of this issue, but suffice it to say that adaptation needs would be extensive for the novels.

Overall, it's difficult to see Dragonlance, for all its massive importance as an influence over the modern fantasy genre, being a priority for a live action adaptation. It's just too big and too weird. Even among D&D derivative works it wouldn't be my first choice. Even though I'm not personally a big R.A. Salvatore fan, the initial Icewind Dale trilogy is a much more straightforward adaptation.

[gooddragon1]

Still a better love story?

[Forum Explorer]

Eh, maybe. There's actually a ton of artwork and source material for Dragonlance so they could manage a pretty faithful adaptation if they put the effort in.

However the books are extremely religious and Hollywood might be reluctant to touch them because of that.

[Magic_Hat]

What do you think, would this make a great movie, the cartoon verson looked like a Saturday morning cartoon from the 1980s.

That depends. Would several characters have to be completely CGI with people possibly doing motion capture because this is a fantasy series, several scenes on a green screen, and scenes with a large, disposable CGI army? Because if they're using that much computer animation just make it an animated series but have a higher budget.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

As a movie, not really. A high production mini series might work.

The fact is D&D movies have never held a good track record for movies. Let's not forget Wizards "Hail Mary" attempt with Book of Vile Darkness to generate interest in the brand by going to an "extreme" of sorts. And even with half nude women, that didn't help. Though apparently there is another D&D movie to be slated for 2021 coming out so we'll see how that one does.

For Dragons of Autumn Twilight, if you have a good script, director, and producers that could balance it enough to still keep to its roots (there by pleasing the fans of the D&D brand) while also making the story accessible to a general audience (who knows nothing of D&D truly) then it could work. But personally I think a movie set in a less traditional high fantasy setting like Planescape or Eberron would have a better shot as a movie. These setting break away from the high fantasy genre and shows that D&D, as a brand, is more vast in materials for general audiences.

[Magic_Hat]

The fact is D&D movies have never held a good track record for movies.

You guys are gonna hate me, but I'll go on record as saying Wrath of the Dragon God is decent. The Jeremy Irons however belongs in the same category as The Last Airbender live action film.

[JoshL]

I'll agree that Dragon God is good. It's not great, but anything after that theatrical movie is a step up (caveat, I also watch that more than I should admit, because it is endearingly terrible). Vile darkness was a let down though. Personally, I'd like to see a Forgotten Realms tv series, particularly the Avatar trilogy which I loved in middle school, but even a quest-of-the-week type show, with a larger arc, have party members come and go rather than a fixed main cast, but have fun with it the way the game should be!

[Tom Kalbfus]

Fantasy adaptations are tricky. For every Game of Thrones style success (and regardless of opinions regarding quality, GoT represented a massive financial success) there's a Shannara Chronicles style failure. Numerous major IPs in fantasy have struggled to make it into film or TV in recent years, despite significant audience interest and strong producer appetites for content, as they are expensive to produce and represent significant risks.

Dragonlance Chronicles would be expensive to produce. You've got dragons, draconians, bizarre visual effects like Raistlin's eyes, and more, with later books involving some fairly massive set pieces that would demand a huge VFX budget. So it would be a pretty big task.

At the same time, the Chronicles also have a bunch of shall we say, difficult, elements as holdovers from their 1980s production. Riverwind and Goldmoon are perhaps the most obvious, but you're also stuck with the challenge of trying to bring Tasselhoff to screen in a way that is both not horrifying in its own right and doesn't launch a thousand think pieces. Forum rules prevent any sort of detailed discussion of this issue, but suffice it to say that adaptation needs would be extensive for the novels.

Overall, it's difficult to see Dragonlance, for all its massive importance as an influence over the modern fantasy genre, being a priority for a live action adaptation. It's just too big and too weird. Even among D&D derivative works it wouldn't be my first choice. Even though I'm not personally a big R.A. Salvatore fan, the initial Icewind Dale trilogy is a much more straightforward adaptation.

I don't see any problem with Tasselhoff, he is basically a halfling with shoes, they did Frodo and Bilbo in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit
Riverwind is a barbarian, it is one of the character classes in D&D, Goldmoon is a barbarian Cleric and they love each other, so? I can't imagine anyone having a problem with that.

[Tom Kalbfus]

Eh, maybe. There's actually a ton of artwork and source material for Dragonlance so they could manage a pretty faithful adaptation if they put the effort in.

However the books are extremely religious and Hollywood might be reluctant to touch them because of that.

Not a real religion, no one worships Paladine or Takisis, or any of the other gods of Krynn, they do not have constellations in our sky, they are very specific to the Dragonlance setting and have nothing to do with us. Hollywood did Hercules and that had many gods in it, if they can do Hercules, then Dragonlance has even less to do with the real world than Hercules.

[Tom Kalbfus]

That depends. Would several characters have to be completely CGI with people possibly doing motion capture because this is a fantasy series, several scenes on a green screen, and scenes with a large, disposable CGI army? Because if they're using that much computer animation just make it an animated series but have a higher budget.

You can use real world locations for many places on Krynn, you may wish to use the same techniques for Flint Fireforge as was used for Dwarves in middle Earth, those worked fine, you might want to get a kid to play Tasselhoff, or use the same shrinking technique as used for Frodo. Everyone else is a human or elf, elves require good looking actors with fake pointed ears, not really a problem and worked well enough for Lord of the rings. I definitely wouldn't do costumes for draconians, they have more in common with the raptors of Jurassic Park. Dragons and other monsters likewise. Its no worse than Narnia.

If they do any dungeons dragons movie, it shouldn't be done on the cheap, also the characters should fit into the setting and shouldn't use modernisms, we shouldn't be reminded that they are actors playing a part, i think the recent King Arthur movie had that problem. Krynn is quasi medeaval, the armor should be real or at least look real. We need to achieve suspension of disbelief. The other D&D movies didn't quite achieve that. The screen play should fit the novel to avoid the temptation of writing a screenplay that is easy to film.

[Gallowglass]

If I was going to do it, I'd want to pare down the story. There are a LOT of characters, and that's what makes it tricky from a straight screenwriting perspective

Tanis
Flint
Tasslehoff
Caramon
Raistlin
Sturm
Riverwind
Goldmoon

and eventually Tika and Laurana.

Goldmoon and Riverwind are the central macguffin of the first book. The quest is to move them from A to B to get C. But then, they functionally disappear are useless in books 2 and 3.

[Tom Kalbfus]

As a movie, not really. A high production mini series might work.

The fact is D&D movies have never held a good track record for movies. Let's not forget Wizards "Hail Mary" attempt with Book of Vile Darkness to generate interest in the brand by going to an "extreme" of sorts. And even with half nude women, that didn't help. Though apparently there is another D&D movie to be slated for 2021 coming out so we'll see how that one does.

For Dragons of Autumn Twilight, if you have a good script, director, and producers that could balance it enough to still keep to its roots (there by pleasing the fans of the D&D brand) while also making the story accessible to a general audience (who knows nothing of D&D truly) then it could work. But personally I think a movie set in a less traditional high fantasy setting like Planescape or Eberron would have a better shot as a movie. These setting break away from the high fantasy genre and shows that D&D, as a brand, is more vast in materials for general audiences.

Dragonlance Cronicles is a trilogy modeled somewhat on Lord of the rings, one of the main departures is that magic is more common in DL, as you have to represent all the character classes. LoR had mostly fighters with swords.

[Tom Kalbfus]

I'll agree that Dragon God is good. It's not great, but anything after that theatrical movie is a step up (caveat, I also watch that more than I should admit, because it is endearingly terrible). Vile darkness was a let down though. Personally, I'd like to see a Forgotten Realms tv series, particularly the Avatar trilogy which I loved in middle school, but even a quest-of-the-week type show, with a larger arc, have party members come and go rather than a fixed main cast, but have fun with it the way the game should be!

You like the shows Hercules or Xena? I prefer more serious and less tongue and cheek. I think a series like Game of Thrones is a better example.

[Tom Kalbfus]

If I was going to do it, I'd want to pare down the story. There are a LOT of characters, and that's what makes it tricky from a straight screenwriting perspective

Tanis
Flint
Tasslehoff
Caramon
Raistlin
Sturm
Riverwind
Goldmoon

and eventually Tika and Laurana.

Goldmoon and Riverwind are the central macguffin of the first book. The quest is to move them from A to B to get C. But then, they functionally disappear are useless in books 2 and 3.

One book, one movie, just like in Lord of the Rings, that is how I'd do it. A miniseries or television series would be fine too, and if the need more material, the could use the DL modules as a basis for the script.

[Forum Explorer]

Not a real religion, no one worships Paladine or Takisis, or any of the other gods of Krynn, they do not have constellations in our sky, they are very specific to the Dragonlance setting and have nothing to do with us. Hollywood did Hercules and that had many gods in it, if they can do Hercules, then Dragonlance has even less to do with the real world than Hercules.

Except in Hercules you can argue the gods aren't really gods so much as powerful jerks. While they exist in the setting the characters don't really have a lot of faith in them.

In Dragonlance the characters very much worship their gods, and preach their word. It might not be a real religion, but it touches on a lot of real religious themes.

[Magic_Hat]

You can use real world locations for many places on Krynn, you may wish to use the same techniques for Flint Fireforge as was used for Dwarves in middle Earth, those worked fine, you might want to get a kid to play Tasselhoff, or use the same shrinking technique as used for Frodo. Everyone else is a human or elf, elves require good looking actors with fake pointed ears, not really a problem and worked well enough for Lord of the rings. I definitely wouldn't do costumes for draconians, they have more in common with the raptors of Jurassic Park. Dragons and other monsters likewise. Its no worse than Narnia.

You could do all that, or just put all you energy into hiring good artists to make it animated and, you know, try and treat animation like a legitimate art form. Which would be easier in the long run though?

[Tom Kalbfus]

Except in Hercules you can argue the gods aren't really gods so much as powerful jerks. While they exist in the setting the characters don't really have a lot of faith in them.

In Dragonlance the characters very much worship their gods, and preach their word. It might not be a real religion, but it touches on a lot of real religious themes.

We have this baked in idea that a God is all powerful and always, right, so if you have a disagreement with a god, you are a heritic, and so must therefore be wrong. With multiple gods. Some gods represent evil forces, and are powerful by can be wrong. Hercules was often in conflict with some gods. Gods weren't all powerful know it alls, that we expect of our gods today. Krynn's gods aren't all powerful either, they are powerful but not all powerful. Paladine has a moral compass, and so do many of the characters in the book. If they were amoral, they'd make lousy protagonists. Imaging if Caramon was a thief and a bandit, imagine he kidnaps people and holds them for ransom, and then kills them if ransom is not paid, that would be not much of a hero, and if he gets eaten by a dragon, people would say he had it coming. So Paladine is the good guy god. And Takisis is the bad girl goddess. Not much like most real religions today.

The role of gods in classical religion was that they were personifications of the forces of nature or abstract concepts such as war, wisdom, love, and marriage. Usually you worshipped these deities if you wanted a favor from them or to keep them happy so they don't cause you trouble. Krynn's god are much the same except they are more morally aligned Takisis is evil, Paladine is good, and there are other gods such as the three gods of magic, one is good, one is neutral and one is evil. With Roman gods, you either wanted favors from them, or you appease them to avoid their wrath. D&D has an alignment system, so D&D gods often reflect that.

[Mordar]

You could do all that, or just put all you energy into hiring good artists to make it animated and, you know, try and treat animation like a legitimate art form. Which would be easier in the long run though?

It isn't, for me, a question of "is animation a legitimate art form" but a question of "Do I want animated Sturm or live-action Sturm?" Do I want drawn backgrounds or "real" locations? Here and now, given LotR. GoT and a handful of others, I want live actors in "real" locations presenting the story I loved.

- M

[Forum Explorer]

We have this baked in idea that a God is all powerful and always, right, so if you have a disagreement with a god, you are a heritic, and so must therefore be wrong. With multiple gods. Some gods represent evil forces, and are powerful by can be wrong. Hercules was often in conflict with some gods. Gods weren't all powerful know it alls, that we expect of our gods today. Krynn's gods aren't all powerful either, they are powerful but not all powerful. Paladine has a moral compass, and so do many of the characters in the book. If they were amoral, they'd make lousy protagonists. Imaging if Caramon was a thief and a bandit, imagine he kidnaps people and holds them for ransom, and then kills them if ransom is not paid, that would be not much of a hero, and if he gets eaten by a dragon, people would say he had it coming. So Paladine is the good guy god. And Takisis is the bad girl goddess. Not much like most real religions today.

The role of gods in classical religion was that they were personifications of the forces of nature or abstract concepts such as war, wisdom, love, and marriage. Usually you worshipped these deities if you wanted a favor from them or to keep them happy so they don't cause you trouble. Krynn's god are much the same except they are more morally aligned Takisis is evil, Paladine is good, and there are other gods such as the three gods of magic, one is good, one is neutral and one is evil. With Roman gods, you either wanted favors from them, or you appease them to avoid their wrath. D&D has an alignment system, so D&D gods often reflect that.

All of that is factual and none of that matters. If the Dragonlance series treated their gods as fantasy set pieces it wouldn't be a problem, but the story is very much about faith, religion, and other stuff that Hollywood isn't particularly comfortable tackling.

That's what I think the biggest obstacle is. The Dragonlance series has very strong opinions on what humanity's relationship with God should be, and its pretty blunt about it. The religious allegory is thick throughout the entire series, and gets more and more blatant as it moves along.

[Gallowglass]

I couldn't really disagree more about that. The religious subtext is just subtext. Yes, there are fantasy gods (fizban, takhisis) that are driving the conflict, but so what. That's not exactly novel a concept.

At the core you have an acendant military conquering army trying to seize control of a large number of neighboring kingdoms that don't like each other. You have the vaguely eurocentric humans, the primitiive plainswalking humans, the knights of solomnia, and three distinct elven kingdoms that are forced to combine together to beat back this military invasion.

My biggest problem with trying to turn it into a movie is that there are an endless stream of unrelated macguffins that they heroes ping pong between then abandon to try and turn a fetchquest into a reasonably plot would be troubling.

blue crystal staff
disks of mishakal
hammer of tharsis
dragon orbs
the everman

and it keeps going. Because it was a series of modules turned into a story, its not a very strong cohesive narrative.

So if you want to turn it into a movie you have to wipe that all out. Goldmoon starts with a staff. The staff leads not to "the disks of mishakal" and the return of clerical power, but to a dragon orb. The dragon orb(s) become the macguffin that matters. wipe the everman and the hammer and the disks all out, they are extraneous.

It has to be simplified to make it truly filmable and that simplification is going to cost people things they liked about it.

For example. We determine there are too many characters. We cut out riverwind as extraneous and keep Goldmoon. She is now the young woman on a holy quest. She replaces Elistan. Heck, she could replace Laurana (if you're willing to put her in the Tanis Kitiara Laurana Goldmoon love triangle. Now she's an actual female protaganist, who serves a purpose through the entire narrative and has a stronger role.

But that is a sizable modification. Lots of Laurana lovers out there are gonna **** themselves in anger.

[Rodin]

The idea of Hollywood not wanting to touch fantasy religions doesn't really hold water in a post Game of Thrones world.

That series had multiple religions of varying degrees of relevance:

The Dothraki religion, with the various prophecies that don't come true.
The Drowned God, who does not appear to have power.
The Seven, who also don't appear to have power but the RELIGION is massively important to the plot and the corruption within the Church is a huge driving force in the story. As is the Sparrow and his attempt to reform the Church, his fanatical approach to said reform, and a flipping TON of real-world parallels.
The Old Gods, who DO have power but act in roundabout and mysterious ways.
And finally, R'Hllor, who also has power and has full blown inquisition, burning non-believers, and outright human sacrifice.

So...yeah. If there was going to be a massive backlash over fantasy religions, we already woulda gotten it. Having a generic "god of good" fighting a "god of evil" is downright quaint in comparison.

I also don't see the problem with Tasslehoff - he's basically a fantasy version of the Artful Dodger, and the character type is one that has existed for centuries. As noted earlier, halfling is not an issue since Hobbits are a thing.

All that said? I don't know that I would want to see an adaptation. Early Dragonlance is incredibly 80s, and even if there was someone I trusted to bring it to the big screen I don't think it would translate well. This is a case where I think keeping it as books is for the best.

[Mordar]

Because it was a series of modules turned into a story, its not a very strong cohesive narrative.

Is that correct? I recall the DL modules coming out after the Dragons of Autumn Twilight. Yes, the whole of it was inspired by game play, but I don't think the novels are meant to be a novelization of the campaign.

- M

[Keltest]

Is that correct? I recall the DL modules coming out after the Dragons of Autumn Twilight. Yes, the whole of it was inspired by game play, but I don't think the novels are meant to be a novelization of the campaign.

- M

The novels were based off of a particular playthrough of the modules done by the authors' group. Theres actually a thread doing a readthrough of the Chronicles atm with some of the author commentary. It isn't an exact transcript, but it more or less follows the path they took.

[JadedDM]

Is that correct? I recall the DL modules coming out after the Dragons of Autumn Twilight. Yes, the whole of it was inspired by game play, but I don't think the novels are meant to be a novelization of the campaign.

- M

The first novel (Dragons of Autumn Twilight) was published in November of 1984, while the first module (Dragons of Despair) was published in March of 1984. So the modules did come first, by about 8 months.

[Gallowglass]

The first novel (Dragons of Autumn Twilight) was published in November of 1984, while the first module (Dragons of Despair) was published in March of 1984. So the modules did come first, by about 8 months.

Bear in mind that the playthrough that inspired the novels was during the playtesting period BEFORE the modules were published in March 1984 as well.

Its been multiple decades since I read them, so I will probably be wrong, but as I recall the line of the novel was something like

old friends who have spend decades looking for signs of old gods converge back together in solace
one of them brings strangers who hold a macguffin (blue crystal staff)
find out evil empire is ON THE MOVE
Fight and flee.
follow macguffin fetch quest to jungle ruins
kill first dragon, get second macguffin (disks of mishakal), free slaves
get captured by evil empire
get freed by Qualanesti elves
dat Rivendell moment. Meet secondary NPCS (elves, laurana), get new fetch quest
go to Pak Tharsis, free more slaves, get third macguffin (dragon orb)

I think that did if for novel 1, but I could be wrong. I remember that novels 2 and 3 get really confusing with the heroes splitting into two parties

1 tries to take a dragon orb to the knights of solomnia and ends up in some elven civil dispute,
1 tries to take a dragon orb to Palastine... er I mean Palanthas.... and ends up caught in the middle of the bad guys army, then ends up under the ocean, then ends up back in the bad guys army....

I don't know. You could look at the LoTR and hobbit movies and think "a road trip fetch quest can work!" but this one is way more complex and disassociative than LoTR that was very straightforward with very few sub macguffins.

Personally, I think it could be done and could be successful because we are to the poing that people riding around with lances on dragon back can be done and done well.

But I'd think they'd try a Pern movie first which is probably hte more likely of the "people riding dragons" stories.

[bguy]

For example. We determine there are too many characters. We cut out riverwind as extraneous and keep Goldmoon. She is now the young woman on a holy quest. She replaces Elistan. Heck, she could replace Laurana (if you're willing to put her in the Tanis Kitiara Laurana Goldmoon love triangle. Now she's an actual female protaganist, who serves a purpose through the entire narrative and has a stronger role.

But that is a sizable modification. Lots of Laurana lovers out there are gonna **** themselves in anger.

Merging Goldmoon with Laurana would be a spectacularly bad idea. What makes Laurana's story so compelling is watching her grow into a great warrior, leader, and hero. You ruin that if you merge her with Goldmoon (and still give Goldmoon clerical powers) because then you're no longer telling the story of how a young woman slowly develops into a great hero who defeats arch-mages and controls dragon orbs and leads armies through her own strength and skill and determination but are instead telling the (much less interesting) story of how a young woman channels the power of a god to overcome all challenges without having to do anything herself.

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Just consider the differences in two of their climatic moments in the novels. Laurana when trying to control the dragon orb went through an agonizing struggle that took all of her strength for her to prevail. Now contrast that with Goldmoon who defeated Verminaard by... reaching out and touching him on the arm (after which the gods took care of the rest for her.) Laurana's story is the story of a hero. Goldmoon's story is (after she gets clerical powers anyway) the story of someone who has powerful friends.

[Tom Kalbfus]

All of that is factual and none of that matters. If the Dragonlance series treated their gods as fantasy set pieces it wouldn't be a problem, but the story is very much about faith, religion, and other stuff that Hollywood isn't particularly comfortable tackling.

That's what I think the biggest obstacle is. The Dragonlance series has very strong opinions on what humanity's relationship with God should be, and its pretty blunt about it. The religious allegory is thick throughout the entire series, and gets more and more blatant as it moves along.

I notice that people here try very hard to find objection to everything by relating it to modern religion.

Okay, so Dragonlance has similar ideas about the concept of good and evil that is shared by our, Modern world, so what? Would it please you is Dragonlance had a very different concept of good and evil so as to make its characters unrelatable and unsympathetic? I notice for example the Dragonlance has a more modern idea of the place of women in society than in our own European Middle Ages. Look at the paintings of all the female characters in Dragonlance and now look at an authentic medeaval painting or tapestry depicting women in that age, they dress very differently don't they.

Dragonlance has some very modern notions to make their characters relatable to modern audiences, and thus they also incorporate modern notions of right and wrong in theit fictionalmfantasy religion, but it is still not a real religion, the morality is a consensus morality that is shared by most of us, such as killing people is evil, and does notmget into the nuances and particulars that divide us on certain issues.

[Forum Explorer]

I notice that people here try very hard to find objection to everything by relating it to modern religion.

Okay, so Dragonlance has similar ideas about the concept of good and evil that is shared by our, Modern world, so what? Would it please you is Dragonlance had a very different concept of good and evil so as to make its characters unrelatable and unsympathetic? I notice for example the Dragonlance has a more modern idea of the place of women in society than in our own European Middle Ages. Look at the paintings of all the female characters in Dragonlance and now look at an authentic medeaval painting or tapestry depicting women in that age, they dress very differently don't they.

Dragonlance has some very modern notions to make their characters relatable to modern audiences, and thus they also incorporate modern notions of right and wrong in theit fictionalmfantasy religion, but it is still not a real religion, the morality is a consensus morality that is shared by most of us, such as killing people is evil, and does notmget into the nuances and particulars that divide us on certain issues.

To correct you, I would love a Dragonlance movie. I'm just saying what I think would be the biggest issue Hollywood would have producing it. Nothing more or less.