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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    I'd say that the ability to swim is only light lightly correlated with the presence of water, but strongly correlated with the presence of publicly accessible pools. This based on living for over a decade in Africa where according to a lot of people in this thread swimming should be skill possessed by many (living close to the coast or large rivers) but in fact very few possessed it, including fishermen, and those that possessed it had learned it in pools.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    A quick google search seems to indicate that most sailors not being able to swim was a historical fact, not a quirk.
    Years ago, I got a Keeshond. Since they were bred to be barge dogs, I assumed we’d have fun playing in the water with him

    We took him to the lake, but he would not go in the water. We eventually realized that barge dogs are bred to stay on the barge.

    Similarly, a sailor is supposed to stay on the ship.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    A quick google search seems to indicate that most sailors not being able to swim was a historical fact, not a quirk.
    What regions did you check? The anglophone internet tends to prioritize history from certain regions (Europe, especially western Europe, especially England proper). This doesn't extend out particularly well to the rest of the globe, and if you look at the regional population distribution estimates by era Europe has never really had a particularly large population. Probably because it's really not that large a land area, and the more northern areas have pretty wintery climates that don't really support large populations. There's a reason Sweden isn't exactly rich is large metropoli.
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    In my very early days as a player, the people I played with (my family) had a houserule that dwarves sank in water (I say houserule because this was definitely not RAW or RAI in 3.X, which we usually played). I never questioned it, assuming they knew what they were talking about. Then many years passed without more than one or two dwarf PCs and even fewer going near water and I completely forgot about it. But as I was thinking about making dwarves stand out in a home game, I suddenly recalled it. I assumed it had come from old-school DnD, which my father played, but my internet search capabilities have failed me. I've found a few scant references to the idea coming from rpgs, but nothing concrete. So, does anyone know where this idea came from? Was it ever a real rule, or just a popular houserule in old editions or even other rpgs? Maybe it was much rarer than I think it is and I just happened to find related results in my own research?
    Well my group keeps a suspicious eye on dwarves. They are only slightly more trustworthy than the completely untrustworthy halflings and their dirty halfing lychanthropy. Ugh. Halflings.


    I’m guessing a joke just like the vague anti halfings mentality my party has now due to multiple bad experiences with halfings.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilant View Post
    In the Tolkien stories I seem to remember dwarves not being comfortable with the open sea. The sound or the vast ocean fills them with dread.
    I thought it was hobbits who distrusted ("mistrusted") water, though it could be both.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    Well - I guess it came from Dragonlance? Didn't Flint Fireforge say something like that? Anyways, I don't suppose it's far from the truth - if any single race has a specific prediliction towards heavy armor, it's the dwarves. They could remove it, I suppose, but would they really want to, when they could built a bridge instead?
    I recall Flint couldn't swim and wouldn't be surprised if that had an influence on the perception.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    I recall Flint couldn't swim and wouldn't be surprised if that had an influence on the perception.
    There was something. Flint couldn't swim, and I'm fairly sure he said dwarves can't, period. But I threw out the books many years ago, so I can't check =)

    They were awful, anyways. No matter how much I loved them at the time.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    There was something. Flint couldn't swim, and I'm fairly sure he said dwarves can't, period. But I threw out the books many years ago, so I can't check =)

    They were awful, anyways. No matter how much I loved them at the time.
    I wonder how influential they were. I mean, every gaming nerd *I* knew at the time read at least the original trilogy, but do they have long-lasting influence (such that a reference to dwarves not swimming in them could have lasting influence)? I guess I really don't know.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    I suspect its a combination of dwarves being traditionally mountainous people and liking to wear heavy armour in most fiction. Combine not having any reason to know how to swim, with wearing armour that makes it really hard to swim and you have dwarves that don't (rather than can't) swim.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I wonder how influential they were. I mean, every gaming nerd *I* knew at the time read at least the original trilogy, but do they have long-lasting influence (such that a reference to dwarves not swimming in them could have lasting influence)? I guess I really don't know.
    If I had to guess, I'd say they were hugely influential. Both good and bad. Dragonlance is the primary driver behind my enduring revulsion towards dragons. It's also the driver behind my attempts at making many races more than they are in the Monster Manual - be it minotaurs, gnolls, centaurs, whatever.

    Simply because so many aging gamers read those books, I think it has seeped into most everything since then.

    What's more, I think since Dragonlance - along with Stephen King and Anne Rice - used up my tolerance for bad litterature, they're the reason I never read a lot of other things .. Twilight, for instance. I read Game of Thrones, but I did that out of spite. I realised in book one it was utter crap (sorry fans), and only read on because a friend told me 'you cannot judge the series on just the one book'. So I read the first five, all that were out at the time - and it's still ... very, very bad.

    The tv show is infinitely better, and even that is only good at times. Specifically, whenever Tyrion is on-screen.

    This is off topic. Sorry. Please don't let me derail the thread.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    If I had to guess, I'd say they were hugely influential. Both good and bad. Dragonlance is the primary driver behind my enduring revulsion towards dragons.
    Interestingly it was Game of Thrones that killed the dragon hype for me, combined with an interesting note in the Keltia rulebook about how it uses dragons as symbols rather than creatures. I now find them too overdone, I'd much rather have an interesting take on humanoids or include demons than let a dragon anywhere near my games (Wyverns are allowed though, because the D&D wyvern had enough differences to make them just cool enough in their own right). Although A Song of Ice and Fire is also one of the series that pushed me towards human-only settings (Fullmetal Alchemist being another big influence on that).

    Interestingly my view of A Song of Ice and Fire is opposite to yours, I can't stand the show (partially because of things like making Tyrion nicer and having to simplify things) but find the books to reach alright at times.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    I would imagine that living underground, there is a dearth of oceans/rivers/lakes/swimming pools in which to learn the skill.
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    In Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series, specifically Road to Ehvenor, one of the characters, Ahira Bandylegs, specifically notes that dwarves cannot swim, due to density... and, in true fashion, is promptly knocked off the boat they are on.

    Humans float ok, and better the more fat that they have. Someone with a lot of muscle floats poorly. A dwarf, with a lot greater density, and often a lot of muscle, is going to have trouble floating, but I don't see it implemented very often.
    Maybe they could be like hippos and basically just run along the bottom. Though - I don't believe they get more lung capacity aside from the small bit they get from having a higher CON score.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    In Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series, specifically Road to Ehvenor, one of the characters, Ahira Bandylegs, specifically notes that dwarves cannot swim, due to density... and, in true fashion, is promptly knocked off the boat they are on.
    This is where I first encountered the idea, and I even suspect this series is indeed the origin of the concept. (And in fact, IIRC the idea occurs in a much earlier novel in the series, quite possibly even the first book. The dwarf character is always nervous about this, and avoids boats, which is a recurring character trait.)

    Though one might mention that in The Hobbit (novel, not film), a significant moment in Mirkwood occurs when Bombur falls into the Enchanted River and sinks, barely grabbing on to a hastily thrown rope. Although the text never states that he sinks because he’s a dwarf (it could be just his wet clothes), it might have inspired the idea of “sinking dwarves.”

    Either way, I don’t think it really began in D&D (and isn’t officially a part of it), but came from outside the game.
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    I thought it was from Dwarf Fortress. Something to do with undead carps or something?
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    I would imagine that living underground, there is a dearth of oceans/rivers/lakes/swimming pools in which to learn the skill.
    Water flows downward, so it's more the exception to have caves filled with air than water.

    Maybe one of the favorite pastimes of dwarfs is to relax at the under-beach, soaking up the dark-sun, with a nice room-temperature koruna™ beer? Maybe enjoy a game of volley-axe, or do some shadow-surfing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I thought it was from Dwarf Fortress. Something to do with undead carps or something?
    Reference is definitely too new for that. Also, DF dwarfs can swim (even untrained), it's just a matter of finding water without high CR monsters in it (like carp).

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    In humans lower lung capacity will affect swimming. Less air inside less buoyancy in the water.
    Under this assumption dwarves would likely make very good swimmers. Or, at least, they have this particular advantage.
    Assuming dwarf physiology is similar to humans, their dimensions would give them huge lung capacity relative to their body size. This is even backed up in recent editions of D&D, where they get a bonus to CON, which determines (among other things) how long one can hold their breath.
    That's all I can think of, at any rate.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    There was something. Flint couldn't swim, and I'm fairly sure he said dwarves can't, period. But I threw out the books many years ago, so I can't check =)

    They were awful, anyways. No matter how much I loved them at the time.
    To my memory, Flint was afraid of the open water and boats because of a traumatic incident as a child involving a drowning. I don't recall it being a racial trait, despite being basically cited as one in the current PHB, though my memory is far from perfect. It wouldn't be the first example of a character trait being turned into a racial trait in later fantasy media.
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoreward View Post
    To my memory, Flint was afraid of the open water and boats because of a traumatic incident as a child involving a drowning. I don't recall it being a racial trait, despite being basically cited as one in the current PHB, though my memory is far from perfect. It wouldn't be the first example of a character trait being turned into a racial trait in later fantasy media.
    Dragonlance, like Star Wars, suffers from a lot of Greedo syndrome... we see one prominent example of the alien, and so all the aliens become like that one. If Flint is a dwarf, and Flint cannot swim, it follows that all dwarves cannot swim.
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Dragonlance, like Star Wars, suffers from a lot of Greedo syndrome... we see one prominent example of the alien, and so all the aliens become like that one. If Flint is a dwarf, and Flint cannot swim, it follows that all dwarves cannot swim.
    Gimli doesn't like water, and neither do any of the dwarves in The Hobbit. So, I suspect its more that they don't swim, rather than can't swim. By and large they have no reason to learn to do so.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Gimli doesn't like water, and neither do any of the dwarves in The Hobbit. So, I suspect its more that they don't swim, rather than can't swim. By and large they have no reason to learn to do so.
    Which makes sense in a psuedo-medieval setting where dwarves very much stick to the mountains. But in context of D&D it doesn't really make sense. Just like most characters can be assumed to be literate in at least their native tongue, it seems to be assumed everyone else has at least a decent chance of swimming. Which makes the houserule so odd in retrospect. I can only remember one time it came up prominently (a two player game in which the elf had to push a raft carrying the dwarf across a slow part of a river), but I actively elected to ignore the idea myself later. It's only years after I've come to realize that it wasn't some holdover from a particular edition.
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    There's also a few larger creatures in D&D 3.5 that are, like, denser than rock. I think a handful of (organic) creatures are denser than some metals.
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    Reference is definitely too new for that. Also, DF dwarfs can swim (even untrained), it's just a matter of finding water without high CR monsters in it (like carp).
    I see! Shows how much I know about Dwarf Fortress, doesn't it (that is to say, diddly scut!)?
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2019-10-22 at 10:04 AM.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I thought it was from Dwarf Fortress. Something to do with undead carps or something?
    I thought it was just that whenever you needed to cross water you just engaged the magma pumps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    I don't think it's a matter of dwarves can't swim in that they're incapable so much as it's a matter of dwarves can't swim in that those dwarves who know how are so vanishingly rare as to not be noteworthy. People that live on and under inland mountains and tend toward wearing and carrying heavy gear have little reason to learn to swim and serious impedements when they find the need suddenly.

    FWIW, in 3.5 the stormwrack supplement introduced a dwarven subrace that live in coastal mountains and seaside cliffs and have a strong sailing tradition. IIRC, they get some racial bonuses on swimming.
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    dwarves have negative buoyancy due to their compact nature and bone density. THIS IS KNOWN!
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    What regions did you check? The anglophone internet tends to prioritize history from certain regions (Europe, especially western Europe, especially England proper). This doesn't extend out particularly well to the rest of the globe, and if you look at the regional population distribution estimates by era Europe has never really had a particularly large population. Probably because it's really not that large a land area, and the more northern areas have pretty wintery climates that don't really support large populations. There's a reason Sweden isn't exactly rich is large metropoli.
    During the Age of Sail, most Royal Navy sailors couldn't swim, simply because being able to swim meant you just prolonged the inevitable of drowning at sea, miles away from any land.

    That said, sources dodn't mentioned whether the aforementioned sailors were volunteers or pressganged urban poor and other caught unfortunates, who wouldn't be expected to be able to swim.

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by FabulousFizban View Post
    dwarves have negative buoyancy due to their compact nature and bone density. THIS IS KNOWN!
    Citations, please?

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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    During the Age of Sail, most Royal Navy sailors couldn't swim, simply because being able to swim meant you just prolonged the inevitable of drowning at sea, miles away from any land.

    That said, sources dodn't mentioned whether the aforementioned sailors were volunteers or pressganged urban poor and other caught unfortunates, who wouldn't be expected to be able to swim.
    I assume you're talking about the British Royal Navy? An island with a cold current pointed basically right at it, with an institutional culture that reflects this? Because that's a good example of exactly my point regarding expected swimming skill varying highly by region.
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    Default Re: "Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    I assume you're talking about the British Royal Navy? An island with a cold current pointed basically right at it, with an institutional culture that reflects this? Because that's a good example of exactly my point regarding expected swimming skill varying highly by region.
    Oops, sorry, yes. I keep on forgetting there's more than one Royal Navy.

    However you're right and I concede the point. That said, I was under the impression that the Gulf Stream warmed the British Isles, making them far more inhabitable than their latitude would normally permit.

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