"Dwarves can't swim" where did this come from?

[The Library DM]

Citations, please?

I suspect the citation is the previously mentioned Guardians of the Flame novel series, ‘cause I’m pretty sure that’s where I encountered it, way back when.

[Imbalance]

I suspect the citation is the previously mentioned Guardians of the Flame novel series, ‘cause I’m pretty sure that’s where I encountered it, way back when.

I think you're right.

If the only printed mention is a throwaway setup to a comedic event, that hardly qualifies as an all-caps declaration of established fact. Until this thread, how many had ever even heard the concept of dwarves being remotely incapable of swimming in any fiction? This is not foundational, this is not common, and I doubt that is even canon in the one (and apparently only) series that gives it an actual mention. I was asking for evidence that "THIS IS KNOWN!"

A handful of vague, anecdotal recollections about a singular obscure blurb along with speculative interpretations of various other events is hardly convincing. I'm not arguing one way or the other, but I am curious that if this is the trope, why isn't it more widely acknowledged?

[Kelb_Panthera]

While I wasn't surprised to see the question, I had never heard anything canonically declaring dwarves can't swim as an official "thing" anywhere in fiction.

[Anonymouswizard]

While I wasn't surprised to see the question, I had never heard anything canonically declaring dwarves can't swim as an official "thing" anywhere in fiction.

I can't think of anything either. I mean, I know of references to it being a problem for particular dwarves, but no cases of 'dwarves sink like stones'. Although on that note I can see it being true in Runequest.

I guess it's like vegetarian elves, although that one is more common in fiction, in that it comes up because people think it fits the species's style.

[LibraryOgre]

I guess it's like vegetarian elves, although that one is more common in fiction, in that it comes up because people think it fits the species's style.

It's canon in Shadowrun and Earthdawn.

[Lemmy]

I never heard of it as canon anywhere either... Over thr years I've occasionally heard it as joke, but even that was rare.

In my setting dwarves in general are usually bad swimmers (i.e.: have no skill ranks in Swim and no feats or abilities related to swimming) because it's not a very useful skill in the places they live... And "Dwarves can't swim" is only mentioned in-game as a stereotype or joke.

I suppose it would make sense to give them a penalty to Swim and Fly checks, given that they are much denser, but not stronger than humans and have short limbs... But that feels unnecessary (and kinda mean).

Besides, taking things like body density and limb length in consideration is a can of worms I definitely don't want to open!

[Anonymouswizard]

It's canon in Shadowrun and Earthdawn.

Eh, certainly not universally in Shadowrun (never played Earthdawn).

It's always confused me a bit. If elves are supposed to live in harmony with nature, and elves are omnivores, then why would they avoid meat? They probably don't eat it as much as humans, but they're meant to eat it.

[Seto]

Not sure where it comes from, but it reminds me of a funny anecdote from my first-ever DnD campaign.

I was playing an elven Wizard, and my friends were a Halfling Rogue and a Dwarven Fighter. We'd had a rough trek through the wilderness, and the Halfling was covered in dried blood and entrails. He positively stank. So we had him bathe in a body of water before entering the city. The DM wasn't that much more experienced than us, and sort of overlooked the "you only need to make Swim checks if you're threatened or the current is strong" part of the rule.
So, the Halfling fails several Swim checks and begins to drown. I, the nimble and light elf, jump after him to catch him. I start drowning too. The stout, heavy Dwarven warrior clad in full plate jumps in the water to try and save us. ...He passed his rolls and brought both of our unconscious bodies back to the shore.
Yeah, Dwarves can swim.

[Imbalance]

It's canon in Shadowrun and Earthdawn.

Eh, certainly not universally in Shadowrun (never played Earthdawn).

It's always confused me a bit. If elves are supposed to live in harmony with nature, and elves are omnivores, then why would they avoid meat? They probably don't eat it as much as humans, but they're meant to eat it.

In Elder Scrolls, the Bosmer, or Wood Elves, strictly eat meat in defense of their luxuriant homeland forests. No word on whether the missing dwarves, or Dwemer, were averse to aquatic travel that I remember reading.

[dehro]

more often than not, Dwarves wear heavy armour.. maybe that's what makes them sink...

[Studoku]

According to all known laws of buoyancy, there is no way a dwarf should be able to swim. Its arms are too short to keep its fat little body above water.

The dwarf, of course, swims anyway. Because dwarfs don't care what humans think is possible.

[Grey Watcher]

It's not that they can't swim, but would you go swimming if you had that much facial hair to dry out afterwards?

[Anonymouswizard]

According to all known laws of buoyancy, there is no way a dwarf should be able to swim. Its arms are too short to keep its fat little body above water.

The dwarf, of course, swims anyway. Because dwarfs don't care what humans think is possible.

You know that rule only applies to fixed wing watercraft, the dwarf swims by moving it's arm in a more circular fashion at incredible speeds.

[Imbalance]

You know that rule only applies to fixed wing watercraft, the dwarf swims by moving it's arm in a more circular fashion at incredible speeds.

Spoiler: Which is similar to how they fly.

Show

The party is traveling on a mountain in a blizzard, and every member rolls to see if they fall from the cliff. A dwarf warrior doesn't pass the check due to his armor, and falls.

DM: You fall from the cliff but have some time to do something. What do you do?

Dwarf: I flap my arms really hard.

DM: Really?

Dwarf: Not like I have any other options.

DM: Ok, roll the dice.

Dwarf rolls a 20.

DM: ... roll again.

Dwarf rolls a 20 again.

DM is abash.

DM:*sigh. With an astonished look on their faces, the party beholds a miraculous sight. A dwarf in heavy armor is slolwy rising up above the cliff, flapping his arms really, really hard.
~multiple sources

[Peelee]

It's not that they can't swim, but would you go swimming if you had that much facial hair to dry out afterwards?

You underestimate my love of swimming!

[Durkoala]

Which is similar to how they fly.

Just so you know, the censors have broken your link.

[RifleAvenger]

There's also a few larger creatures in D&D 3.5 that are, like, denser than rock. I think a handful of (organic) creatures are denser than some metals.

On the reverse end, I had a druid with an earth elemental companion in 3.5 that could float in water. 4ft tall, assumed at least small human width, and only 80 pounds RAW.

[Alexvrahr]

On the reverse end, I had a druid with an earth elemental companion in 3.5 that could float in water. 4ft tall, assumed at least small human width, and only 80 pounds RAW.

The four elements: Fire, Water, Air and Pumice.

[Starbuck_II]

Could also be they live in mountains so never needed to learn to swim.

[Eldan]

On the reverse end, I had a druid with an earth elemental companion in 3.5 that could float in water. 4ft tall, assumed at least small human width, and only 80 pounds RAW.

I think someone also once calculated that a Balor should probably sink even in magma and probably even in dry earth.

[hamishspence]

A being roughly as dense as water, the height of a balor, would weigh roughly 1600 pounds (200 pounds, 6 ft - corresponds to 1600 pounds, 12 ft, scaled up without changing the density)

A balor is 4500 pounds - so 2.81x the density of water.

Lava is about 2.80x the density of water, at its densest. Low density lava can be as little as 2.1x the density of water.


So yes, a balor would eventually sink.

As to ground pressure generated - that would be roughly 5.62 x the ground pressure generated by an average human (since the 1600 pound humanoid would generate 2x the ground pressure of the 200 pound humanoid). So, 45 psi instead of 8 psi. Very slightly more than a mountain bike, but less than a racing bike.

[sawbladex]

Homelands from Magic the Gathering had a clan of sea based dwarves.

Of course, sailors not being able to swim is not impossible, (and depending on the ocean, swimming might not be particularly useful.)

[Knaight]

I think someone also once calculated that a Balor should probably sink even in magma and probably even in dry earth.

Which is a pretty common screwup - especially as scaling up often runs into either this or density problems.

I'll take this over lighter than air whales in Pokemon, or the hilarious numbers Starfinder uses for spaceship weight*, which has led my group to the descriptive phrase "aerogel star needles" - though at the upper end you start seeing densities more associated with interstellar hydrogen than aerogel.

*Not using the term mass was the first warning sign.

[Anonymouswizard]

Which is a pretty common screwup - especially as scaling up often runs into either this or density problems.

I'll take this over lighter than air whales in Pokemon, or the hilarious numbers Starfinder uses for spaceship weight*, which has led my group to the descriptive phrase "aerogel star needles" - though at the upper end you start seeing densities more associated with interstellar hydrogen than aerogel.

*Not using the term mass was the first warning sign.

I mean, the numbers in Starfinder are realistic, if you're measuring within a small asteroid's gravity field.

But yeah, people seem to forget how as your size increases linearly surface area increases quadratically and mass increases cubically. Otherwise you get balrogs made out of balsa wood allowed with interstellar hydrogen, and spaceships that must be made out of 99% vacuum.

[DrewID]

I mean, the numbers in Starfinder are realistic, if you're measuring within a small asteroid's gravity field.

But yeah, people seem to forget how as your size increases linearly surface area increases quadratically and mass increases cubically. Otherwise you get balrogs made out of balsa wood allowed with interstellar hydrogen, and spaceships that must be made out of 99% vacuum.

You don't wanna push too hard for realistic numbers, though. In that direction lie the GURPS Vehicles rules. There be madness!

DrewID

[Anonymouswizard]

You don't wanna push too hard for realistic numbers, though. In that direction lie the GURPS Vehicles rules. There be madness!

DrewID

While I've not seen GURPS Vehicles I have seen the starship constriction system in GURPS Space 2e, and honestly I'd take something that complicated over numbers as hilarious as those in Starfinder. But really, how hard is it to take the mass and volume of an actual rocket (2,970,000kg, roughly 1,100m for a Saturn V) and base your mass and volume numbers on that (with maybe some mass savings to represent advancements in spaceship tech). Because mass and volume scale linearly we know that a ship ten times the size masses somewhere around 30Gg (that's gigagrams for those who have forgotten their SI units). One thousand times the size means roughly one terragram. It's not that hard to have your numbers in the right ballpark.

[Eldan]

Which is a pretty common screwup - especially as scaling up often runs into either this or density problems.

I'll take this over lighter than air whales in Pokemon, or the hilarious numbers Starfinder uses for spaceship weight*, which has led my group to the descriptive phrase "aerogel star needles" - though at the upper end you start seeing densities more associated with interstellar hydrogen than aerogel.

*Not using the term mass was the first warning sign.

Clearly, that's all elvencraft metals. You can finesse those spaceships.

[DrewID]

While I've not seen GURPS Vehicles I have seen the starship constriction system in GURPS Space 2e, and honestly I'd take something that complicated over numbers as hilarious as those in Starfinder. But really, how hard is it to take the mass and volume of an actual rocket (2,970,000kg, roughly 1,100m for a Saturn V) and base your mass and volume numbers on that (with maybe some mass savings to represent advancements in spaceship tech). Because mass and volume scale linearly we know that a ship ten times the size masses somewhere around 30Gg (that's gigagrams for those who have forgotten their SI units). One thousand times the size means roughly one terragram. It's not that hard to have your numbers in the right ballpark.

GURPS Vehicles for 3rd edition has been called the "GURPS book for BOEING engineers". And it was supplemented by the GVB (GURPS Vehicle Builder) software aid to balance all the fidly interrelationships that (to be fair) real vehicles have to deal with. And by all report, if you wanted to build a Fnord F150, then Vehicles would produce numbers astonishingly close to an actual Fnord F150. But the general feel back on the GURPS Usenet group was that without the GVB, it was nigh on unusable. I gather that for 4th edition, they were able to keep most of the accuracy and shed enough complexity that it was playable.

This, of course, has nothing to do with Dwarves swimming. To at least point in the direction of the topic, I gather that GURPS Vehicles does make it possible to design a Dwarven submersible, which could serve as an adjunct to either swimming or non-swimming Dwarves.

DrewID

[dehro]

it possible to design a Dwarven submersible, which could serve as an adjunct to either swimming or non-swimming Dwarves.

DrewID

Aren't dwarves naturally submersible?

[Lord Torath]

In the Death Gate Cycle book 4 Serpent Mage (by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman - Dragonlance writers) dwarves couldn't swim. They tended to sink, instead, due to body density issues - too much muscle, not enough fat, and heavy, dense bones. Still used submersibles, though.